The hate?

[Beenx24]

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I really don't know where to post this, as this is my first time on this forum. If it needs to be moved/deleted, that's okay.

Just wanted to gather some opinions: good, bad, crazy, funny, hateful, I don't care. Just anything that is the truth.

Long story short: My brother was killed overseas two years ago during his 3rd deployment. The reason: lack of available medical care. In 2012, who would have thought any military would have deprived their very soldiers fighting appropriate medical attention? Anyway, I was fresh out of high school and knew I wanted to be a military health provider immediately. By immediately, I mean two years ago yesterday. I have wanted to be trauma surgeon, but I know I do not have the privilege of spending the time on such an extensive program (I am already active duty). So, I joined the dreaded BSN program in my community, wanting the quickest possible route to enroll in the military program. I say dreadful, because it is full of students who want nothing to do with medicine (or people, for that matter), just a quick slip that says "Go out and make decent money really quick". Thinking of this, I googled "Stupid Nursing Students" (immature, I know - but I swear this cohort was found in the bottom of a cracker jack box) and came across an old threat in here. Sadly, I agree with a lot of people in the way some nurses handle their education (their "be all know all"). Still, I'm going to finish my degree and enroll. The question comes after.

Will civilian doctors still treat a nurse like this, (the "I am better than you") attitude even after they have served? Are ego's really first priority when it comes to lives? Reality wise, I will need a job upon returning home and will not have the honor of working with the team mentality you so strongly get from platoons, doctor or not. Due to my father's extensive time in the Marines, I get tuition for my studies and would like to eventually go back for a MD of some sorts. But this ridicule from the forum seems to be the majority of stories heard about homeland doctors treating other health professionals, making some second guess coming back home to work in under appreciated facilities. Do any of you civilian MD's feel this way?

 

[tantacles]

I really don't know where to post this, as this is my first time on this forum. If it needs to be moved/deleted, that's okay.

Just wanted to gather some opinions: good, bad, crazy, funny, hateful, I don't care. Just anything that is the truth.

Long story short: My brother was killed overseas two years ago during his 3rd deployment. The reason: lack of available medical care. In 2012, who would have thought any military would have deprived their very soldiers fighting appropriate medical attention? Anyway, I was fresh out of high school and knew I wanted to be a military health provider immediately. By immediately, I mean two years ago yesterday. I have wanted to be trauma surgeon, but I know I do not have the privilege of spending the time on such an extensive program (I am already active duty). So, I joined the dreaded BSN program in my community, wanting the quickest possible route to enroll in the military program. I say dreadful, because it is full of students who want nothing to do with medicine (or people, for that matter), just a quick slip that says "Go out and make decent money really quick". Thinking of this, I googled "Stupid Nursing Students" (immature, I know - but I swear this cohort was found in the bottom of a cracker jack box) and came across an old threat in here. Sadly, I agree with a lot of people in the way some nurses handle their education (their "be all know all"). Still, I'm going to finish my degree and enroll. The question comes after.

Will civilian doctors still treat a nurse like this, (the "I am better than you") attitude even after they have served? Are ego's really first priority when it comes to lives? Reality wise, I will need a job upon returning home and will not have the honor of working with the team mentality you so strongly get from platoons, doctor or not. Due to my father's extensive time in the Marines, I get tuition for my studies and would like to eventually go back for a MD of some sorts. But this ridicule from the forum seems to be the majority of stories heard about homeland doctors treating other health professionals, making some second guess coming back home to work in under appreciated facilities. Do any of you civilian MD's feel this way?

Not all of them. I would say that a majority of us see nurses as in integral part of a team, and we have no desire to talk down to anyone. That being said, we went into medicine knowing that we'd be team leaders and understanding full well the disparity between the education that nurses and physicians receive, so ego can sometimes take over. It's difficult, as you might imagine, to have a nurse who might only have an associate's degree, no matter how long the nurse has been in practice, calling the shots.

I think physicians, and I'm definitely guilty of this despite still being in medical school, sometimes feel entitled to being the absolute authority in their field based on the time they sacrificed and the money they spent to achieve an extremely high level of education. It can sometimes lead to a toxic team environment, and my perception is that the vitriol that comes out of this mentality is something that wise practitioners seek to avoid. Medical students being trained now are taught that the doctors are the brains and the boss, but much of the patient's prognosis lies with the quality of nursing staff (who are often quite knowledgable as well), and they are valued as health care providers and educators as much as physicians are valued.

 

[Siggy]

Will civilian doctors still treat a nurse like this, (the "I am better than you") attitude even after they have served?

In general? No. HOWEVER, the physician is still ultimately in charge of the patient's plan. That can cause issues when nursing wrongly thinks the patient needs something that they don't (MOST OFTEN, the nurses are right, and the medical staff is MOST OFTEN more than willing to write for things the nurses want... but it's not always the case) or the nursing staff refuses to do things essentially out of voodoo (2mg of dilaudid? Sure thing Doc. Over 10 mg of morphine? What are you trying to do... kill the patient?).

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Some doctors have a God complex, you get that at institutions, especially at well known hospitals. Most docs aren't like that id like to think. I treat everyone equally, but if I see someone being disrespectful I tend to be slightly ruder to them, nurses give students a lot of **** lol.

But sounds like you are having a power struggle lol. Sounds like you want to be top dog in the room. Nursing is a good profession, don't be ashamed of it. A good nurse makes life so much easier you have no idea.

 

[arfc6]

People respect competence. SDN is medicine as seen through a fun house mirror.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

People respect competence. SDN is medicine as seen through a fun house mirror.

What's a fun house mirror?

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

People respect competence. SDN is medicine as seen through a fun house mirror.

Can you technically see through a mirror? #DeepinThought

 

[Venko]

I really don't know where to post this, as this is my first time on this forum. If it needs to be moved/deleted, that's okay.

Just wanted to gather some opinions: good, bad, crazy, funny, hateful, I don't care. Just anything that is the truth.

Long story short: My brother was killed overseas two years ago during his 3rd deployment. The reason: lack of available medical care. In 2012, who would have thought any military would have deprived their very soldiers fighting appropriate medical attention? Anyway, I was fresh out of high school and knew I wanted to be a military health provider immediately. By immediately, I mean two years ago yesterday. I have wanted to be trauma surgeon, but I know I do not have the privilege of spending the time on such an extensive program (I am already active duty). So, I joined the dreaded BSN program in my community, wanting the quickest possible route to enroll in the military program. I say dreadful, because it is full of students who want nothing to do with medicine (or people, for that matter), just a quick slip that says "Go out and make decent money really quick". Thinking of this, I googled "Stupid Nursing Students" (immature, I know - but I swear this cohort was found in the bottom of a cracker jack box) and came across an old threat in here. Sadly, I agree with a lot of people in the way some nurses handle their education (their "be all know all"). Still, I'm going to finish my degree and enroll. The question comes after.

Will civilian doctors still treat a nurse like this, (the "I am better than you") attitude even after they have served? Are ego's really first priority when it comes to lives? Reality wise, I will need a job upon returning home and will not have the honor of working with the team mentality you so strongly get from platoons, doctor or not. Due to my father's extensive time in the Marines, I get tuition for my studies and would like to eventually go back for a MD of some sorts. But this ridicule from the forum seems to be the majority of stories heard about homeland doctors treating other health professionals, making some second guess coming back home to work in under appreciated facilities. Do any of you civilian MD's feel this way?

I'm sorry about your loved one and am deeply appreciative for your and their service and commitment in protecting our homes and lives.

As for being better than someone...

There are many things i am better than my nursing colleagues with and many they are better than me at. This is going to be true everywhere and between any two people. Also the attitude given and the perception are both highly influenced by the state of mind both parties approach the conversation....so it will likely happen to all and by all at one time or another. This is to say, there will be nurses who behave as though they are superior to all just as some docs will.

Interestingly, I sometimes see the nurses in my department be very condescending towards our patient care assistants...so it is happening at all levels unfortunately.

I think there will not be a feeling of equal footing with respect to medical knowledge or science just because of years of experience. This is because working as part of a team only allows you to learn patterns but not necessarily the why. If you are a carpenter working alongside an electrician for twenty years you may pick up a few patterns regarding electrical work but you will still not become an electrician.

 

[Beenx24]

I'm should have made my personality a bit more clear, so I can differ from the nurses I speak about. I have no problems knowing I am less educated, and unqualified for intense patient care. I am no doctor, and just because I can read/understand a chart, does not mean I know anywhere near everything involved. (That is what doctors are for, right?) I understand my role as a nurse in the team is to see the surface, so to speak, of patient care and let the doctors and experts in the field handle the expert care. I always said doctors are experts in treating the body - nurses heal the soul. We are taught bedside manners, addressing patients, less-complex things because we are not "supposed" to diagnose nor "pretend" to play doctor. 😉 Also, I did not mean "all" civilian doctors - just generalized the sub category to keep the post from being unnecessarily long.

 

[Nidor]

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[BestDoctorEver]

.....

 

[ChrisGriffen]

People vent about nurses on SDN. Its the same way nurses vent about docs on AllNurses.
Believe me, nurses crap on doctors just as much as the other way around. In general, there is mutual respect between all members of the team.

 

[Beenx24]

People vent about nurses on SDN. Its the same way nurses vent about docs on AllNurses.
Believe me, nurses crap on doctors just as much as the other way around. In general, there is mutual respect between all members of the team.

Yes they do, don't they? I've heard my fair share of nurses getting an overnight Ph.D. Quite annoying both ways, but there will always be that "bunch" everywhere you go I suppose.

And thank you Venko. It's appreciated.

 

[icuRNmaggie]

After working in ICUs for 15 yrs, as I have, you are bound to learn something right? I can recognize tamponade, cardiogenic shock, ARDs nec fasciitis cerebral edema but that does not make me an ID doctor, an intensivist, neurologist or a cardiac surgeon. It means I need to get on the phone to update the physician while anticipating appropriate orders . I do not diagnose. I know the difference between practicing nursing and medicine I really do.
We are supposed to complement each other.
The scientific knowledge required to practice medicine is huge. The physican is the ultimate decision maker and don't criticize until you have been in those shoes.

I know a little bit about a lot of things and sometimes I think I am just confused at a higher level. I am pretty crafty with a whole lot of high tech tubes wires and machines and meds within protocol limitations. It takes years to become proficient at any trade and some days I feel more like a master plumber or electrician than a nurse. Best compliment ever from an MD: do that nursing magic that you do.

My point in writing this is that to allow someone to become an advanced practice nurse without any experience is doing the student and the patients a huge disservice. Experience is essential. There was a time when advanced practice nurses were selected and trained by physicians. If physicians were educating APRNs I would go for it but not the way advanced nursing practice education is dumbed down right now. Its all online discussion groups, a one page paper every week and no exams. Maybe physicians and medical schools should establish their own mid level ( what does that make me by the way low level?) education programs. Make it challenging. Sign me up.

My job as a nurse is to provide comfort, safety, rest, nutrition and mobility, which are the foundation of good health, while implementing the medical orders and providing constant monitoring. Not everyone gets this. Also to get a laugh or at least a smile from the patient if possible. Advanced Practice nursing is not that holistic; in my opinion it is for people who want to get out of nursing and make bank.

The education bubble is going to break like the housing bubble did. The ones who will get rich will be the proprietors of online schools, test prep classes and books, not the students holding a pretty useless degree that cost 60K. I have worked with a lot of MSN staff nurses over the years who couldn't find jobs. I work with a few nurses who are doing the online quickie FNP, they are good nurses but not anywhere near ready to function as a provider.
Their clinical practicum requirement is 400 hours in a General Practice and 200 hours in a Pediatric Practice. That is 75 days or 10.7 weeks or 2.6 months.

I just want to add that not all nursing programs require some kind of watered down allied health science pre-requisites. I graduated from a well regarded BSN program in 1995 and did well in the same Bio I and II, A&P I &II, Chem, Organic Chem Micro and Bio Chem that the Biology and pre-med majors took. I don't know how that works today.

 

[icuRNmaggie]

to the original poster BeenX24:

First of all thank you for your service. Go to the best school that you can afford. I would be embarrassed as ---- to have a degree from Western Governors Liberty University of Walden Phoenix Chamberlain.
Make your first position in the ER or ICU with a plan for a Level I trauma Center in Baltimore, Boston, San Francisco or Seattle
If you do a good job and foster good relationships with everyone you will not encounter any problems from the MDs or even the most perfectionistic of surgeons. It just takes time to earn their trust.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you're looking for respect and comraderie, certain environments tend to be more conducive to mutual respect than others, such as the MICU or ED. Ex-mil types congregate to these places for a reason.

 

[Venko]

After working in ICUs for 15 yrs, as I have, you are bound to learn something right? I can recognize tamponade, cardiogenic shock, ARDs nec fasciitis cerebral edema but that does not make me an ID doctor, an intensivist, neurologist or a cardiac surgeon. It means I need to get on the phone to update the physician while anticipating appropriate orders . I do not diagnose. I know the difference between practicing nursing and medicine I really do.
We are supposed to complement each other.
The scientific knowledge required to practice medicine is huge. The physican is the ultimate decision maker and until you have been in those shoes don't criticize.

I know a little bit about a lot of things and sometimes I think I am just confused at a higher level. I am pretty crafty with a lot of high tech tubes wires and machines and meds within protocol limitations. It takes years to become proficient at any trade and some days I feel more like a master plumber or electrician than a nurse. Best compliment ever from an MD: do that nursing magic that you do.

My point in writing this is that to allow someone to become an advanced practice nurse without any experience is doing the student and the patients a real disservice. There was a time when advance practice nurses were selected and trained by physicians. If physicians were educating APRNs I would go for it but not the way advanced nursing practice education is dumbed down right now. Its all online discussion groups, a one page paper every week and no exams. Maybe physicians and medical schools should establish their own mid level ( what does that make me by the way low level?) education programs. Make it challenging. Sign me up.

My job as a nurse is to provide comfort, safety, rest, nutrition and mobility which are the foundation of good health while implementing the medical orders and providing constant monitoring. Not everyone gets this. Also to get a laugh or at least a smile from the patient if possible. Advance Practice nursing is for people who want to get out of nursing.

I just want to add that not all nursing programs require some kind of watered down allied health science pre-requisites. I graduated from a well regarded BSN program in 1995 and did well in the same Bio I and II, A&P I &II, Chem, Organic Chem Micro and Bio Chem that the Biology and pre-med majors took. I don't know how that works today.

I would love to be on your healthcare team anyday.