The reality of work hours

[Dr.Sticks]

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Okay so as a pre-med, everywhere I look everyone seems to be talking about how you work 70+ hours through residency, and how taxing it is, and how your family life suffers, and what everyone does it make seem exclusive to resident doctors/surgery attendings
From my research, any career with great reward requires intense work;
Oil Drilling(100+ hours a week)
Truck Driving(Up to 70 hours a week)
Investment Banking(100+ hours a week)
Business owner can work(80+ hours)
I could go on with all sorts of careers with insane work hours, and one thing all these careers have in common is the potential to make A LOT of money.
So why should it be shocking that you work 80+ hours a week as a surgeon? Why should it even be a factor considering the fact that jobs that promise you the most reward require the most work? Honestly compared to other high paying careers and their work hours, medicine seems to be very appealing.

Ultimately I find the doomsday visions of being some no life depressed loner to be really foolish. It really seems that this whole too much work thing is something the new generation is really pushing a bit silly if you ask me.

 

[estukay]

What's the question?

 

[qwerpoiuqwer]

it's not so much the # of hours as it is the intensity of the stress of working in such a high pressure environment as the OR where actual lives are the mercy of your fingertips.
to be sure, every job has its own set of baggage, but enumerating the hours of other high stress jobs and using them as means to dismiss the work of surgeons/physicians is really quite
immature.

have you actually had any working, pt- contact centered experience in healthcare other than shadowing, scribing, or volunteering? because i don't think you could possibly have said the above if you've been through such an experience.

 

[Doudline]

You don't witness discussions on IB or law or business work hours here because... well... investment bankers and lawyers and business people don't frequent these boards (for the most part).

There are numerous more time-demanding jobs than being a physician, yes, but it's just not the focus of this board.

(That being said, is your 80 hours week really easier because someone you don't know, in some office, has a 100 hours week? What kind of rhetoric is that?)

 

[justadream]

Okay so as a pre-med, everywhere I look everyone seems to be talking about how you work 70+ hours through residency, and how taxing it is, and how your family life suffers, and what everyone does it make seem exclusive to resident doctors/surgery attendings
From my research, any career with great reward requires intense work;
Oil Drilling(100+ hours a week)
Truck Driving(Up to 70 hours a week)
Investment Banking(100+ hours a week)
Business owner can work(80+ hours)
I could go on with all sorts of careers with insane work hours, and one thing all these careers have in common is the potential to make A LOT of money.
So why should it be shocking that you work 80+ hours a week as a surgeon? Why should it even be a factor considering the fact that jobs that promise you the most reward require the most work? Honestly compared to other high paying careers and their work hours, medicine seems to be very appealing.

Ultimately I find the doomsday visions of being some no life depressed loner to be really foolish. It really seems that this whole too much work thing is something the new generation is really pushing a bit silly if you ask me.

For IB at least, the vast majority of people only do it for like 2-3 years when you are fresh out of college (and don't have families) It's not really a "career" for most people. It's more of a stepping-stone onto other things in finance. And people are willing to do IB because the ceiling in finance is insanely high if you can reach the top (which is super hard, I know).

 

[Dr.Sticks]

What's the question?

There is no need for a question, I am merely expressing how I feel that the discouragement due to work hours is silly.

it's not so much the # of hours as it is the intensity of the stress of working in such a high pressure environment as the OR where actual lives are the mercy of your fingertips.
to be sure, every job has its own set of baggage, but enumerating the hours of other high stress jobs and using them as means to dismiss the work of surgeons/physicians is really quite
immature.

have you actually had any working, pt- contact centered experience in healthcare other than shadowing, scribing, or volunteering? because i don't think you could possibly have said the above if you've been through such an experience.

I am not saying their work is easy or anything, what I am trying to say is surgeons/doctors aren't the only ones who work insane hours.

You don't witness discussions on IB or law or business work hours here because... well... investment bankers and lawyers and business people don't frequent these boards (for the most part).

There are numerous more time-demanding jobs than being a physician, yes, but it's just not the focus of this board.

(That being said, is your 80 hours week really easier because someone you don't know, in some office, has a 100 hours week? What kind of rhetoric is that?)

You missed my point; My point is that the discouragement is silly because the time put in is nothing extraordinary.

For IB at least, the vast majority of people only do it for like 2-3 years when you are fresh out of college (and don't have families) It's not really a "career" for most people. It's more of a stepping-stone onto other things in finance. And people are willing to do IB because the ceiling in finance is insanely high if you can reach the top (which is super hard, I know).

Yeah and they work even harder as a managers, and what not..
Anybody who runs a major corporation is a work horse.

 

[Doudline]

You missed my point; My point is that the discouragement is silly because the time put in is nothing extraordinary.

80 hours/week is twice the average, and probably 95%+ percentile.

By definition that is definitely "extraordinary".

 

[Dr.Sticks]

80 hours/week is twice the average, and probably 95%+ percentile.

By definition that is definitely "extraordinary".

Considering the fact that today the average American makes 30k a year from their 40 hour work week, sure.. However do note that those who make the most, generally work the most.
With that said, it should be no shock that the most successful sleep the least
See: http://www.businessinsider.com/successful-people-who-barely-sleep-2012-9

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

These types of posts make me wish @DermViser were still active.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Ultimately my point is that sleep is over rated.. You folks on SDN value it way too much.
I only sleep about 5 hours average a night.
Feel like a million bucks in the AM.

 

[Chipster.]

Ultimately my point is that sleep is over rated.. You folks on SDN value it way too much.
I only sleep about 5 hours average a night.
Feel like a million bucks in the AM.

Maybe with all the extra time you have you can figure out how to be less naive and annoying.

 

[mimelim]

Okay so as a pre-med, everywhere I look everyone seems to be talking about how you work 70+ hours through residency, and how taxing it is, and how your family life suffers, and what everyone does it make seem exclusive to resident doctors/surgery attendings
From my research, any career with great reward requires intense work;
Oil Drilling(100+ hours a week)
Truck Driving(Up to 70 hours a week)
Investment Banking(100+ hours a week)
Business owner can work(80+ hours)
I could go on with all sorts of careers with insane work hours, and one thing all these careers have in common is the potential to make A LOT of money.
So why should it be shocking that you work 80+ hours a week as a surgeon? Why should it even be a factor considering the fact that jobs that promise you the most reward require the most work? Honestly compared to other high paying careers and their work hours, medicine seems to be very appealing.

Ultimately I find the doomsday visions of being some no life depressed loner to be really foolish. It really seems that this whole too much work thing is something the new generation is really pushing a bit silly if you ask me.

#1 Oil drilling/truck driving may have long weeks, but there is a significant amount of downtime for most of the work force.
#2 Investment bankers, even by the most extreme estimates do not work 100+ hours per week. Analysts can clock in 80-90, associates 70-80 and higher ups considerably less. You will hear stories about individuals or individual firms, but you will find outliers in any field.
#3 Business owners is such a broad category, how you would compare it to anything is a little strange.
#4 Even if you include all of those groups, they still make up a tiny fraction of the work force in the US.
#5 Few practicing surgeons work 80+ hours/week. Most physicians after residency work considerably less.
#6 There is a huge cost to going to medical school. There is a large lead up. 2 years worth of pre-med curriculum (roughly what you need to go into most things like law or IB), then 4 years of lost income from medical school, then 4 years worth of loans for medical school, then 3-9 years of ~50k/year working 60-100 hours/week prior to getting a real job. The hole you start in is tremendous compared to virtually any other career. The career length is shorter because you have less years to work because of more years of education. Suddenly being a physician becomes far less appealing financially.
#7 There are huge rewards for being a physician. For smart, capable people who would excel or at worst do well at whatever they choose to spend their time doing, becoming a physician is not the best financially, which is why if it is someone's primary reason for applying, they need a reality check.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

You're not really making an argument, you're just presenting a fact. Yes, some physicians work crazy hours, especially during residency - you're right. Some people just don't want jobs that are so demanding, no matter how good the money is. It's about where your priorities are. The biggest pressure of being a doctor probably isn't the sheer number of hours worked, it's the fact that people's health and wellbeing are literally in your hands. It's a lot of responsibility, arguably more serious than being an i-banker or being a truck driver. So.. what's your point?

Point is hours worked is nothing extraordinary, it is typical of professions where a lot of money is to be made.(See above posts, I stated my point several times)

 

[URMD]

1. There's a saying in Emergency medicine. 40hr emerg week = 60 hrs any other specialty. Comparing hours worked without considering how busy and stressed one are in those hours doesn't work

2. Fact is that doctors today are working more while earning less than their earlier counterparts. People have noticed this trend and that is where most of the doomsday stuff is coming from
I think that if the same thing happened to other professions, people would also complain in the same way.

Idk much about the other professions you mentioned but I havent heard of impending pay cuts for oil drillers, truck drivers, or investment bankers. All of the pressure is on healthcare costs right now

 

[qwerpoiuqwer]

Your point that the hours worked is nothing extraordinary rests on the assumption that the only reason why doctors complain about their work
lies merely on the # count of hours. As many others have pointed out, there are monetary and latent costs to becoming and being a physician that renders physician compensation
an equitable return for the OC of their time given up.

I really don't get the point of this post. I mean, I do, but... why it had to be said is beyond me.

Also, I thought we stopped bragging about how little we sleep after high school.
Sleep is awesome. Sleep is life. Sleep heals all.

 

[deleted577188]

Ultimately my point is that sleep is over rated.. You folks on SDN value it way too much.
I only sleep about 5 hours average a night.
Feel like a million bucks in the AM.

Hahahaaa same!! I'm blessed to be able to fully function off of 3 hours of sleep and no breakfast to supplement.

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

The amount of sleep needed per night varies from person to person... it's genetic. These aren't my own views, just playing Devil's Advocate, but I can see the reasoning behind calling such a tremendous amount of work 'extraordinary'. The jobs listed above have incredible monetary potential, whereas working 80+ hours per week as a resident doctor has an incredible low ceiling pay. On top of that, you're still expected to study/retain/test academically under these conditions.

 

[mehc012]

Ultimately my point is that sleep is over rated.. You folks on SDN value it way too much.
I only sleep about 5 hours average a night.
Feel like a million bucks in the AM.

Cool. Sounds like you got some good genes. Lucky you. Emphasis on the luck. It's not some personal achievement to hold over others' heads. It doesn't mean others are overvaluing sleep, just that (and here's the shocker) people are not all exactly identical. :gasp:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/

Point is hours worked is nothing extraordinary, it is typical of professions where a lot of money is to be made.(See above posts, I stated my point several times)

Right...and people's response has been, overwhelmingly...so what?

The reason people emphasize the hours and requirements of being a doctor on here is because this site is targeted towards those considering the profession. Not everyone who considers it is cut out for it. Like other high-performance professions, it requires above-average effort and hours to achieve. We push this point to make sure everyone going in knows what they're signing up for, because once you start taking on that debt, it's hard to backtrack. The costs are largely up-front in medicine, unlike some of the fields you are referencing.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I personally am somewhat of a workaholic, so I don't mind the prospect. I'm a little bit crazy though.

 

[Microglia]

Point is hours worked is nothing extraordinary, it is typical of professions where a lot of money is to be made.(See above posts, I stated my point several times)

Med student post step 1 with gf in ibanking here. Yea, uh I work way less hard than her. That being said, haven't done third year yet so what do I know..but my classmates who just started work similar hours on surgery as she works every week? It is what it is, work hard if you want to make a lot, or work less and sacrifice income. Such is the nature of life.

 

[resiroth]

Investment banking is a lot of hours, but it's in an office. Would you rather work 70 hours a week in emergency medicine or surgical residency or 90 in ibanking? You're nuts if you think ibanking is faster pace than medicine. Nothing but boring spreadsheets. As others had said...lots of jobs work crazy hours, but you're not dealing with life and death in those jobs.