The Tone

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Something about message forums is often times I've noticed a flame war going on by people that if they were doing the same debate in-person, they wouldn't have gotten so upset about it.

Internet message forums where debates are held tend to flare emotions and polemic responses. Why? My opinoin, it's a combination of anonymity. People could write a response meant to simply piss another person off without fear of consequences. Do that at home, work, or school, you're likely going to get something flung back in your face that really hurts. As for the emotions flaring, it's because people can infer something from text that may not have been meant at all.
 
Yeah, anonynimity and indirectness of responses (social psychologists have discovered that it is easier to press a button and kill thousands then stabbing one person with a knife) promote a lack of inhibition. In this case, the most dark, enraged, ego-supressed material of human nature surface in all their glory and reign supreme. Kinda ironic seeing primitive aspects of human nature ("fighting tendencies", "need for sex") surfacing in such a high-tech thing such as the internetz. Technology has liberated the instincts again 😛
 
I will certainly admit that I'm much more likely to point out someone being a d-bag on the internet than in real life. Here, they can't punch me in the face 🙂
 
PETRAN said:
Yeah, anonynimity and indirectness of responses (social psychologists have discovered that it is easier to press a button and kill thousands then stabbing one person with a knife) promote a lack of inhibition. In this case, the most dark, enraged, ego-supressed material of human nature surface in all their glory and reign supreme. Kinda ironic seeing primitive aspects of human nature ("fighting tendencies", "need for sex") surfacing in such a high-tech thing such as the internetz. Technology has liberated the instincts again 😛
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No offense but why are you even on this board? There are millions of message boards and surely one for psychologists. I think they might appreciate your .02 over there because just to be brutally honest, when someone notes you are a psychology student you dont have much cred in most issues we discuss.
 
digitlnoize said:
I will certainly admit that I'm much more likely to point out someone being a d-bag on the internet than in real life. Here, they can't punch me in the face 🙂
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Might be about that time 😉
 
Wallstreet said:
No offense but why are you even on this board? There are millions of message boards and surely one for psychologists. I think they might appreciate your .02 over there because just to be brutally honest, when someone notes you are a psychology student you dont have much cred in most issues we discuss.
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Socrates was a no-one and probably couldn't write, yet he was socrates. By this reasoning no-one should hear what he was saying. Go figure (and that doesn't mean that i am Socrates in case you find the analogy difficult). Don't judge someone by his credentials and degrees little man. And don't forget about freedom of speech. Unless you are some sort of a Stalinesque psychiatry advocate.
 
Wallstreet said:
No offense but why are you even on this board? There are millions of message boards and surely one for psychologists. I think they might appreciate your .02 over there because just to be brutally honest, when someone notes you are a psychology student you dont have much cred in most issues we discuss.
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:laugh::laugh:

on a thread discussing tone Wallstreet demonstrates his usual 'stridency.'

I love it.

thanks to the OP for the good laughs. everyone had the giggles during rounds.
 
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a few days ago i requested that my sdn account be deleted because of the tone on the board, but i guess they take several days to do it

when i have my psych interviews, I will email a friend who has an sdn account to post them here. I owe the sdn community that. And thank you everyone for answering my questions in the past. it's just too hostile here and no-more fun
 
iloveDrStill said:
a few days ago i requested that my sdn account be deleted because of the tone on the board, but i guess they take several days to do it

when i have my psych interviews, I will email a friend who has an sdn account to post them here. I owe the sdn community that. And thank you everyone for answering my questions in the past. it's just too hostile here and no-more fun
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These things come in cycles. There are enough polite, collegial, and helpful folks that post regularly here (OPD, Whopper, Billypilgrim, NotDeadYet, Suedehead, BobA, Manicsleep, Sunlioness to name a few off the top of my head) that I'd hope you'd be willing to weather the current storm.
 
Doc Samson said:
These things come in cycles. There are enough polite, collegial, and helpful folks that post regularly here (OPD, Whopper, Billypilgrim, NotDeadYet, Suedehead, BobA, Manicsleep, Sunlioness to name a few off the top of my head) that I'd hope you'd be willing to weather the current storm.
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I'm wondering why I didn't make your shout-out list?😎
 
No offense but why are you even on this board?
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Psychologists and psychiatrists are like engineers and physicists, illustrators and graphic designers, pop stars and classical musicians.

We're supposed to be on the same team, and we've been trained differently. The difference in training can allow psychologists to see things we might miss because their paradigm is different than ours.

If you haven't already, I recommend you work with a psychologist and have them perform an MMPI, among several other psychological tests on patients you find difficult.
 
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And until not too long ago this forum was actually co-sponsored by a psychological organization as well. Wasn't T4C once a mod, even?

It's hard for someone who's been here under a month to understand this is a bit of a community of colleagues. What personality traits (or childhood traumas!) lead to psychiatrists posting on a semi-anonymous forum for years, I don't know.

There aren't a lot of ways to personally know colleagues from different programs and different treatment contexts outside of your own city or program. On this forum, I have two colleagues in the same city as me not in my program, two that graduated from or are in residency at my med school's program, a consultant, addictionologist, and forensic doc who each graduated from a top program, etc. It's a nice add-on to residency training and sometimes isolated practice.

Yes, I just wrote a love letter to the forum. +2 Geek points.
 
Why does everyone have to be so PC every freakin time. Honestly what does having respect and being on the same team have to do with a psychology student being on a psychiatric resident forum.

How are 99 percent of our issues going to have anything to do with that guys ideas or experience?

We are at war with psychology in many ways so please do not try to tell me we should all play nice. There are many issues in congress now regarding psychologists trying to get rights to do things that we SHOULD be fighting for-a la prescribing.

And in the end it was simply a question. How would a random psychology student find a psychiatric residency board. There are probably a million psychology message boards out there.

Whopper you can be the first to offer up some of your salary when psychologists get a bunch of rights they do not ever get qualified to have. Fine by me. For the rest of us this is why we are losing to psychology because we are all complacent evidenced by the PC tone on this board.

Just think about it honestly-do you honestly tell me you value anything a pre-psychology person has to say regarding the field of psychiatry?
 
Wallstreet said:
Why does everyone have to be so PC every freakin time. Honestly what does having respect and being on the same team have to do with a psychology student being on a psychiatric resident forum.

How are 99 percent of our issues going to have anything to do with that guys ideas or experience?

We are at war with psychology in many ways so please do not try to tell me we should all play nice. There are many issues in congress now regarding psychologists trying to get rights to do things that we SHOULD be fighting for-a la prescribing.

And in the end it was simply a question. How would a random psychology student find a psychiatric residency board. There are probably a million psychology message boards out there.

Whopper you can be the first to offer up some of your salary when psychologists get a bunch of rights they do not ever get qualified to have. Fine by me. For the rest of us this is why we are losing to psychology because we are all complacent evidenced by the PC tone on this board.

Just think about it honestly-do you honestly tell me you value anything a pre-psychology person has to say regarding the field of psychiatry?
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The listing of this particular forum is captioned with "For psychiatry residents and students interested in psychiatry".

Do you know that guy? You're sure that guy's ideas and experience have nothing to do with psychiatry?

Defensive? Theres treatment for that. :laugh:

How would a random psychology student find a psychiatry message board? Probably the same way a random psychiatry resident would find a pharmacology or Internal Medicine message board. :meanie:

You're aware that psychiatry has something to do with psychology, yes? And would you have any idea of what said pre-psychology person has studied? What if he has a MS in Psych? He might know more theoretical psychology than you.

You've already demonstrated that you dont understand basic MS-1 pharmacology, and probably forgot the basic psychology you learned in MS-1 as well. Sadly, it seems that you've also forgot basic reading comprehension - PETRAN's post was not about the "field of psychiatry". It was about the field of social psychology, and its findings on anonymity as applied to morality, and the internet.

The final point is the first - this forum is open to students interested in psychiatry. If it was open only to psychiatric attendings and residents, it would be appropriately restricted. (as is the Neonatology forum on the SDN)
 
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Sounds like you are just another psychiatrist who should have been a psychologist and doesnt consider themselves physicians. Making an analogy to a psychiatrist on an internal medicine forum could not be further from a psychology person on a psychiatric forum. We are supposed to be physicians first and psychiatry is our subspeciality. You sound like the type that could not hack other aspects of medicine and now you hide in your little office practicing narrow scope psychiatry, oblivious to the fact you are a doctor yet do not act like one.

Keep em coming as I will knock you down and out for the count with my words:meanie:
 
Reductio said:
The listing of this particular forum is captioned with "For psychiatry residents and students interested in psychiatry".

The final point is the first - this forum is open to students interested in psychiatry. If it was open only to psychiatric attendings and residents, it would be appropriately restricted. (as is the Neonatology forum on the SDN)
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As a student "interested in psychiatry," I just want to throw my two cents in and thank you guys for keeping this board open to non-residents and attendings. As someone who is considering med school and perhaps eventually psychiatry, this (and other specialty boards on SDN) is an enormous resource for education and guidance. My level of knowledge is of course nowhere near many of the posters on this forum, but I really enjoy being able to follow along and contribute where I can. I'm a few credits away from a B.A. in psychology, and I work with patients with severe mental illness at a volunteer placement. The knowledge gleaned from the posters on this board, therefore, is just awesome. So thanks guys.

I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of this thread, since the debate seems sufficiently one-sided as it is.
 
Wallstreet said:
Sounds like you are just another psychiatrist who should have been a psychologist and doesnt consider themselves physicians. Making an analogy to a psychiatrist on an internal medicine forum could not be further from a psychology person on a psychiatric forum. We are supposed to be physicians first and psychiatry is our subspeciality. You sound like the type that could not hack other aspects of medicine and now you hide in your little office practicing narrow scope psychiatry, oblivious to the fact you are a doctor yet do not act like one.

Keep em coming as I will knock you down and out for the count with my words:meanie:
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I get what you're saying about the uneasy alliance between psychiatrists and psychologists (of which, I am neither...just a student). That being said, unless you want to administer every psychological test yourself, and unless they want to go to medical school and learn to manage medical co-morbidities, we need each other.

Even if we don't need each other, we can certainly be civil to each other on a public forum such as this one.

I, for one, welcome our new overlords. 😀

Also...read what Evidence Based said above. Just pretend I said it, up until the part about his level of knowledge, because mine is more near level of knowledge of the posters on this forum...sometimes above it, from what I've been reading lately.
 
We are at war with psychology in many ways so please do not try to tell me we should all play nic
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Speaking only for myself, I'm not at war with psychology. In some ways, I actually think psychologists, in general, are better than psychiatrists in a lot of things concerning mental health.

As for this "war", most psychologists I know don't want any part of it, if I'm correct in assuming you mean the ability for psychologists to prescribe. I've actually debated quite a bit on this topic. If I'm not correct on my assumption, I apologize.

If you really want to fight the "war," PCPs are the largest body of prescribers of psychotropics and our largest competitor in this area, so if you want to go for someone's throat, go for theirs. Not that I would agree with that, just that this would be the first logical step in a so-called "war" for those that subscribe to that idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0&feature=related
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A&E, is the equivalent of an ER in England, standing for "Accident and Emergency."
 
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I will paraphrase Jon Stewart that a problem we have as Americans is we don't see the difference between opponents and enemies.

Civility has a place because it allows for meaningful discussion, as opposed to banal insults. Professionalism should be taught in medical school and in residency (it was in mine), because it teaches physicians to recognize how one appears to others. Respect doesn't just come with your level of knowledge, though obviously that should be a part of it. We're physicians first, we're dealing with life and death issues, and getting defensive or insulting quickly at least gives the appearance that one doesn't have the maturity to handle these issues. One could hope that training is enough to give one that maturity - but the proof is in the pudding -- how one acts.

Now I'm already an outspoken psychiatrist who posts on the sdn psychology forum challenging the idea of psychologist prescribing, but I never intend to be insulting in the challenging, but have serious discussions of the risks and evidence to support a significant risk and little benefit. There's definitely turf wars going on. Psychologists may be opponents in some domains. They're not enemies that need to be obliterated. More like a boxing match (same sport, different teams) than a war (trying to kill one another).
 
zenman said:
But, but look how many I have....😕
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And I think I have more posts than all of those people (admittedly not in the psych forum, though). Now I'm sad ... 😉 Of course my posts here are mainly bitching about my residency experience.

ILDS, don't delete your account. Just don't visit for a while if you're not finding it productive.
 
@Wallstreet
Wow, its actually pitiful to see this coming from a mental health professional. How do you know that i have nothing to do with the field? For all i know i could be a medical doctor and you could be a pimp and no one could know since it is all covered in anonymity. Just because you see a "psychology student" on the side you jump into conclusions and start saying random stuff about prescribing psychologists. I am against prescribing psychologists myself but this is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. What does it have to do with stating your opinion in a mental health forum? And yes a psychiatry one? I'm interested in the neuropsychology and neuroscience of mental health disorders like psychosis and OCD, or in discussions about psychotherapeutic interventions why can't i just participate in a relevant discussion? You attitude is totally malignant.
 
Why are people being so darn politically correct here. Listen, who in their right mind would take advice from someone who has no clue what its like to practice within our field? Just like I would not dream of finding a psychology board and posting my ideas about their field-never!

Psychology student-what can you enlighten me about the field of psychiatry? How do you have things to add if you have zero experience in our field? The point of this board is to be helpful with advice from experience, not inexperienced psychologists taking a guess.

And for those who are not wanting to fight tooth and nail for our rights as a psychiatrist and not let psychology walk all over us, than you can roll over dead as psychologists are showing no mercy in the political forum. Sure it would be nice if every psychology was an understanding reasonable person but fact is they want to continue to take over areas where they simply are not qualified.

One of the biggest jokes I have seen recently was forensic reports written by Psyd's who have never seen a psychotic patient or taken care of anyone severe and yet they are evaluating a forensic patient for severe mental illness because its much cheaper to get them than an MD.

PETRAN I also see you posting advice on the IM and neuro forum-now that is where it just gets ridiculous! A psychology student giving advice on an internal med forum!!! Open your eyes people!
 
Your field is psychiatry, but your patient base is mental health, which is shared between fields - how does the input of the opinions of a professional or professional student from outside your field adversely impact your care for your patient base? At bare minimum, it should be a neutral effect (which is probably the effect it is having on you, given your immediate discounting of opinion based upon status of the opinion giver). Fortunately, others may be (are) more willing to consider what other disciplines have to contribute.

By the way, there are these "obscure" fields in psychology of health psychology and neuropsychology that certainly belong in discussions on IM and neuro boards, respectively.
 
Wallstreet said:
Why are people being so darn politically correct here. Listen, who in their right mind would take advice from someone who has no clue what its like to practice within our field? Just like I would not dream of finding a psychology board and posting my ideas about their field-never!
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I think you're confusing political correctness and plain old politeness.

I see no reason to be politically correct. But I never see a reason to NOT be polite.

Notice that the topic of the thread is tone. Your ideas, Wallstreet, have been super interesting and provocative. Your tone has been a total drag. This kind of distinction should be clear to you for many reasons, not the least of which is because this is the kind of distinction we may need to offer our patients.

And this is coming from one of your peers in your field.
 
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loveoforganic said:
Your field is psychiatry, but your patient base is mental health, which is shared between fields - how does the input of the opinions of a professional or professional student from outside your field adversely impact your care for your patient base? At bare minimum, it should be a neutral effect (which is probably the effect it is having on you, given your immediate discounting of opinion based upon status of the opinion giver). Fortunately, others may be (are) more willing to consider what other disciplines have to contribute.

By the way, there are these "obscure" fields in psychology of health psychology and neuropsychology that certainly belong in discussions on IM and neuro boards, respectively.
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Yes, exactly. I haven't posted anything in IM, but i have a couple of posts in neuro because i do a neuropsych PhD (and i'm thinking of applying to med school next year after i finish my PhD). Forget it though, this man is never going to listen no matter what you tell him. I have met another one like him and it is a helpless situation. Probably personality issues. Let him be
 
You know whopper, I realied you have a comment for absolutely every post but 99 percent of them are naive or useless. You must just like to waste time with your excessively long posts for everything regardless of whether they are totally useless.

You think most psychologists "do not want a part of it" regarding the fight. You again are just being naive. Have you even educated yourself about the bills brought to congress in a multitude of states around the country regarding this issue? Are you aware states already have psychologists prescribing in more and more "trial runs" and more and more of a presence of psychology in congress is becoming evident everyday. The problem is a psychiatrist like you who is laxadasical (cant spell that one) about everything being a "team" approach and "lets play nice" while they are walking all over our field.

We can end this thread, that is fine. Bottom line is there will never ever be a psychology student who has anything worthile to tell me that I do not already know 10 times better. So Petran can waste space here but just know that 99 percent of people here disregard anything you have to say because you are not a physician (despite what a few polite people post here-most just do not want to admit they really have little respsect for your comments on the board" But if you all want to pretend its one big happy family, than kumbaya-wheres the marshmellows:laugh:
 
Wallstreet said:
We can end this thread, that is fine. Bottom line is there will never ever be a psychology student who has anything worthile to tell me that I do not already know 10 times better.
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It seems you feel the same way about attendings too. Congratulations on your immediate appointment to full professor on whichever godforsaken institution decided to hire you.

I don't think you'll find any great number of psychiatrists who agree with psychologist prescribing. Equating that to a belief that you know everything a psychology student knows but 10 times better is either narcissistic folly or a grandiose delusion.
 
Wallstreet,
Isolating ones profession from outside perspectives, advice and influence is probably THE WORST thing that could possibly happen to it. It makes it stale, narrow-minded, prone to "group-think", group consensus, and generally opens you up to all biases that are just a natural part of the human condition. Other disciplines both contribute and "check" you. I am not really sure how one could reasonably argue the opposite viewpoint.

Any reasonable person (PC minded or not) should realize that psychiatry (and the field of clinical psychology) has been influence by many individuals over the years who do NOT actually practice the profession. These include ancient philosophers, modern philosophers of science, statisticians, anthropologists, pharm researchers, geneticists, PATIENTS, etc.

As an aside, if you don't like taking input from psychology (which is weird given that you're in the mental health field) or psychologists, or anyone who doesn't practice psychiatry apparently, I would hope that you are least open minded enough to take the input of your patients. No, they dont practice this field, but I feel they have many important things to teach us. "Humility" being at the top of the list..hint hint. 🙂 Many clinicians will openly tell you that their biggest single educator has been the patients themselves. I think its always a good idea to seek patient feedback at the end of a tx relationship. I have learned alot of things about both myself (and the way I deliver my services) and the field. I hope you utilize this practice as well. You could really learn something.
 
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Wallstreet said:
Bottom line is there will never ever be a psychology student who has anything worthile to tell me that I do not already know 10 times better.
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My dad used to say "Anybody can look a fool in the eyes of God, son. Just remember that."
 
.
 
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Whooper rules!! Great, level-headed, rationale, advice over the years....to both professions. Plus he practices in my home state. 😛
 
Wallstreet said:
Sounds like you are just another psychiatrist who should have been a psychologist and doesnt consider themselves physicians. Making an analogy to a psychiatrist on an internal medicine forum could not be further from a psychology person on a psychiatric forum. We are supposed to be physicians first and psychiatry is our subspeciality. You sound like the type that could not hack other aspects of medicine and now you hide in your little office practicing narrow scope psychiatry, oblivious to the fact you are a doctor yet do not act like one.

Keep em coming as I will knock you down and out for the count with my words:meanie:
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Anybody else beginning to suspect WS is completely disingenuous? Maybe there's another agenda entirely? Is this someone trying to get professionals fighting amongst themselves? Someone trying to get a juicy quote for wider publication? Someone simply trying to show the folly of flame wars?

WS knows a good deal about psychopharm, that's not the issue. Even admits it sometimes when someone points out actual errors in psychopharm details.
But unless there's some other agenda, I have to wonder, "Why are you even on this board?" But at this point, I simply don't care about the reason. Better to hit the ignore button.
 
kugel said:
Anybody else beginning to suspect WS is completely disingenuous? Maybe there's another agenda entirely? Is this someone trying to get professionals fighting amongst themselves? Someone trying to get a juicy quote for wider publication? Someone simply trying to show the folly of flame wars?

WS knows a good deal about psychopharm, that's not the issue. Even admits it sometimes when someone points out actual errors in psychopharm details.
But unless there's some other agenda, I have to wonder, "Why are you even on this board?" But at this point, I simply don't care about the reason. Better to hit the ignore button.
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I'm smelling a troll. Honestly, it's also unusual for someone to join and then jump into discussions so quickly and forcefully. Perhaps he's been here before with another name.

Anyway, trolling -- why do people do it? ASPD? Totally fascinating stuff.
 
I just added him to my ignore list. I think that's the first time ever. It's unfortunate his abuses will continue to pop up when other people quote him.

Wallstreet identified himself early on as a pgy4 at The Ohio State University who will be taking a job on a med psych unit in Arizona. Most of his behavior can be explained by the fact that he is a Buckeye. (Go Blue!)
 
What's particular interesting is the # of threads he started.

I'm thinking rather than a troll, more likely burned bridges with colleagues/others in his current program for similar reasons, and now trying this (SDN) as a means of socializing. Of course this is all speculation.
 
billypilgrim37 said:
I just added him to my ignore list. I think that's the first time ever. It's unfortunate his abuses will continue to pop up when other people quote him.

Wallstreet identified himself early on as a pgy4 at The Ohio State University who will be taking a job on a med psych unit in Arizona. Most of his behavior can be explained by the fact that he is a Buckeye. (Go Blue!)
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And thus confirms the real lack of anonymity on the internet...

http://psychiatry.osu.edu/education/residency_program/index.cfm
 
nitemagi said:
I'm thinking rather than a troll, more likely burned bridges with colleagues/others in his current program for similar reasons, and now trying this (SDN) as a means of socializing. Of course this is all speculation.
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Here was an interesting comment he made abusing me in a thread a few weeks ago:
Wallstreet said:
dude you always give these completely useless unrelated responses trying to be funny but are totally not funny at all. Sounds like you need some friends instead of trying to impress the internet psychiatrists
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Hypothesis: Projection

(and maybe I'm not that funny, but the rest of you seem to generally tolerate me without pulling the knives out)
 
My point is to stand up for your field. In the end many people are fighting harder than we are and we need to step it up-bottom line.
 
nitemagi said:
What's particular interesting is the # of threads he started.

I'm thinking rather than a troll, more likely burned bridges with colleagues/others in his current program for similar reasons, and now trying this (SDN) as a means of socializing. Of course this is all speculation.
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I've been thinking this for quite some time myself. I found myself reading the topics he started (mostly on pharm) and finding that, although he asked good questions, had some pretty flawed basic assumptions.

This, combined with his antagonistic tone, actually prompted me to ask him where he went to residency, because I was truly concerned about the quality of the training there (if he is in fact trained there), and I want better training than that.

Most of his "psychopharm" knowledge could be easily gained with judicious use of google and some spare time.

Anyways, I'm not 100% sure if he is a fake or not, but he is also going on my block list.

Whopper FTW.
 
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