Theriogenelogy Cons

[Animal Midwife]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Tell me the worst stuff about theriogeneolgy please. I'm absolutely in love with this career and want to see if I can take the bad with the good. I know that money is an issue already along with lot of schooling. What else sucks about this profession?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Owners. Breeders can some of the absolute WORST clients ever. Most of the time they think they know more than you anyway and will constantly treat you as such.

 

[katryn]

Don't know if it's like this other places, but if you were thinking of focusing on small animal therio you might want to reconsider. There was a small animal repro specialist at UT for a few years who left because administration basically treated her like a bad joke.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[CalliopeDVM]

My first response was "jerking off dogs", but in all honesty, it's the clients......breeders are crazy people (for the most part) who are very frustrating to work with.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Owners. Breeders can some of the absolute WORST clients ever. Most of the time they think they know more than you anyway and will constantly treat you as such.

I'm sure I'll encounter people like this throughout my life anyway. At least it will prevent me from getting a swelled head.

Don't know if it's like this other places, but if you were thinking of focusing on small animal therio you might want to reconsider. There was a small animal repro specialist at UT for a few years who left because administration basically treated her like a bad joke.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

There's jerks out there for every work place and career. Is she working somewhere else now?

My first response was "jerking off dogs", but in all honesty, it's the clients......breeders are crazy people (for the most part) who are very frustrating to work with.

Actually, the "jerking off" is one of the things that caught my interest about therio. It sounds like breeders will keep my job interesting.

 

[pwny__express]

To echo what others have already said, you would be concentrating a significant "con" for most small animal practitioners into your daily life. Taking on a notoriously difficult and frustrating client demographic can be exhausting for brief interactions, I couldn't imagine basing my livelihood upon the whims and fancies of often mis-informed and overbearing clients.

There was a small animal repro specialist at UT for a few years who left because administration basically treated her like a bad joke.

All else being said, surely there must be value in having this specialization? This makes it sound like she was bullied out of her position for no good reason. Not really a great reason to discourage someone, yeah?

 

[katryn]

All else being said, surely there must be value in having this specialization? This makes it sound like she was bullied out of her position for no good reason. Not really a great reason to discourage someone, yeah?

She did go somewhere else, and as far as I know she enjoyed her previous position and the position she had after. Just pointing out that it is not a uniformally valued specialty, I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[CalliopeDVM]

To echo what others have already said, you would be concentrating a significant "con" for most small animal practitioners into your daily life. Taking on a notoriously difficult and frustrating client demographic can be exhausting for brief interactions, I couldn't imagine basing my livelihood upon the whims and fancies of often mis-informed and overbearing clients.



All else being said, surely there must be value in having this specialization?

Yes, breeders who take their job seriously will often pay significantly for help with fertility issues and ensuring they get the lines they want. They still can be very difficult to deal with, but there certainly is a value in theriogenology for a segment of the public.

 

[Animal Midwife]

To echo what others have already said, you would be concentrating a significant "con" for most small animal practitioners into your daily life. Taking on a notoriously difficult and frustrating client demographic can be exhausting for brief interactions, I couldn't imagine basing my livelihood upon the whims and fancies of often mis-informed and overbearing clients.



All else being said, surely there must be value in having this specialization? This makes it sound like she was bullied out of her position for no good reason. Not really a great reason to discourage someone, yeah?

Yes, breeders who take their job seriously will often pay significantly for help with fertility issues and ensuring they get the lines they want. They still can be very difficult to deal with, but there certainly is a value in theriogenology for a segment of the public.

That makes me feel very important that I could make a difference and use my knowledge to (try to) inform the breeder the best way of doing things.

 

[finnickthedog]

Following. Therio is a specialty I'm seriously considering.

My first reaction to some of this (as a breeder) was "we can't be that bad!". Then I thought about some of the people I know... and we probably are that bad.

 

[dyachei]

That makes me feel very important that I could make a difference and use my knowledge to (try to) inform the breeder the best way of doing things.

definitely is a try. they are all convinced they know more or better than the vet. Responsible breeders tend to be a bit better...but they can still be frustrating.

 

[Rainheart]

I seriously have considered a small animal therio residency, but think I've decided not to pursue one. Just not worth it to me in the end to do it. I'd rather focus on becoming a good general practitioner who does some therio work on the side and building a clientele that way.

 

[Cheerio5683]

Contributing to the over population of animals is something that was mentioned.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I totally only thought of the wildlife and large animal side of repro when this thread was started. Totally forgot about the small animal side.

There are 2 small animal repro specialists in town. I think only 1 is actually a therio. But, now that I think about it, technically there is a canine repro specialist that also does large animal work that I use on my goats.

The large animal people here definitely seem to think of canine therio as a joke, until they start talking about hormones or sperm storage rather than just "jerking off dogs." But all us repro people want to talk about is gametes and their methods of distribution anyway, so for the most part it's light humor even when we are making fun.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Contributing to the over population of animals is something that was mentioned.

Very good point. I've had only shelter and stray animal as pets. Hopefully, I'll have enough clientele to avoid the people who breed to teach their kids "the meaning of life".

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Contributing to the over population of animals is something that was mentioned.

At least all the animals brought about with theriogenologists are wanted and won't likely ever be a part of any "problem". People who want purebreds won't ever adopt a stray; it's not like one replaces the other. Instead, do away with puppy-pimps and people who abandon animals so they breed freely and create unwanted offspring, and then you can really play a part in the overpopulation problem.

 

[Animal Midwife]

At least all the animals brought about with theriogenologists are wanted and won't likely ever be a part of any "problem". People who want purebreds won't ever adopt a stray; it's not like one replaces the other. Instead, do away with puppy-pimps and people who abandon animals so they breed freely and create unwanted offspring, and then you can really play a part in the overpopulation problem.

I plan on taking part in the TNR in the future in hopes of making a difference.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I plan on taking part in the TNR in the future in hopes of making a difference.

They don't really make much of a difference to the local environment. There is increased immigration into the colony to offset any sterilization, so populations often increase in size, or at least remain stable with the environmental resources. Additionally, it does nothing to curb the environmental effect of feral cats, including disease, contamination, and fights over limited resources. The individual desexed cats probably lived longer (on average), which is important for the individual, but not for the problem of overpopulation.

I don't know if anyone is doing TVR - trap, vasectomize, and release. That might fare better, but it's a more difficult (and therefore expensive) surgery.

 

[Cheerio5683]

At least all the animals brought about with theriogenologists are wanted and won't likely ever be a part of any "problem". People who want purebreds won't ever adopt a stray; it's not like one replaces the other. Instead, do away with puppy-pimps and people who abandon animals so they breed freely and create unwanted offspring, and then you can really play a part in the overpopulation problem.

Have you ever heard of the horse industry?

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Have you ever heard of the horse industry?

I was thinking only small animal......sorry. A side effect of my job 😉

 

[Cheerio5683]

I was thinking only small animal......sorry. A side effect of my job 😉

It's the same way there, I see quite a few purebred dogs in shelters that people bought from breeders and drop off.

 

[Rainheart]

It's the same way there, I see quite a few purebred dogs in shelters that people bought from breeders and drop off.

I would say that 90+% of what a small animal theriogenologist is going to see are reputable hobby breeders. Yes, purebred dogs end up in shelters, but these are often not from great situations or good breeders.. I could certainly delve way into the subject but don't really have the time for it today.

 

[Devastating]

Before I read the first post, I thought this thread was asking about any Theriogenology conventions Welcome to TherioCon!

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

They don't really make much of a difference to the local environment. There is increased immigration into the colony to offset any sterilization, so populations often increase in size, or at least remain stable with the environmental resources. Additionally, it does nothing to curb the environmental effect of feral cats, including disease, contamination, and fights over limited resources. The individual desexed cats probably lived longer (on average), which is important for the individual, but not for the problem of overpopulation.

I don't know if anyone is doing TVR - trap, vasectomize, and release. That might fare better, but it's a more difficult (and therefore expensive) surgery.

One of the shelters and low cost Spay Neuter Clinics locally that also does TNRS actually published a paper on population numbers, unwanted animal deaths at the county animal control and other number and health related data.

Since they began the numbers are actually really dramatic. There has been an uptick of rescues being opened and bringing animals in from elsewhere, but all require a spay or neuter as part of the adoption (in most cases the rescue gets this done at the Low Cost S/N Clinic).

But these numbers are also taken into account. I can PM you the link after I find it. But the numbers are really dramatic and show the opposite of what you are expecting.

 

[deleted387118]

Even if you get a small animal only residency, realize boards are all species. Not sure about private practice but I feel like in academia since there are typically only a few employed in each specialty area, one ends up with a lot of on call time. (Or is this just me?)

 

[Minnerbelle]

That makes me feel very important that I could make a difference and use my knowledge to (try to) inform the breeder the best way of doing things.

This is kind of like saying you want to be a pediatrician who specializes in working with anti-vaxxer parents.

Sounds all noble and good, but... Really?




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Trilt]

One of the shelters and low cost Spay Neuter Clinics locally that also does TNRS actually published a paper on population numbers, unwanted animal deaths at the county animal control and other number and health related data.

Since they began the numbers are actually really dramatic. There has been an uptick of rescues being opened and bringing animals in from elsewhere, but all require a spay or neuter as part of the adoption (in most cases the rescue gets this done at the Low Cost S/N Clinic).

But these numbers are also taken into account. I can PM you the link after I find it. But the numbers are really dramatic and show the opposite of what you are expecting.

You will find that the pro- and anti-TNR sides tend to use the exact same papers and spin them one way or the other. The pro- side also really likes to ignore the impact cats have on native wildlife.

Feral cats are one of those situations where there isn't going to be an answer that is satisfactory for everyone.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

You will find that the pro- and anti-TNR sides tend to use the exact same papers and spin them one way or the other. The pro- side also really likes to ignore the impact cats have on native wildlife.

Feral cats are one of those situations where there isn't going to be an answer that is satisfactory for everyone.

Totally fair. What they published was literally numbers from the county, but I can't find it on their website anymore anyway.
Also totally agree that cats do a major number on wildlife.
All I can say is working at a low cost S/N Clinic makes me feel like I make a difference in the lives of pet owners and their critters that would otherwise not be able to afford the surgery and would use that as one of the many excuses to bring countless litters into the world.
Volunteering with TNRs and giving longer healthier lives (we treat wounds too so better health in the short run as well) to cats that can no longer produce multiple litters a year does make me feel like I've helped at least a bit with local population control... and since we have very few repeat customers (humans)... it feels good for quite a while.
It is the total opposite of what I do in every other part of my life, but that's probably part of why it is so funny to me to write both on a resume.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Even if you get a small animal only residency, realize boards are all species. Not sure about private practice but I feel like in academia since there are typically only a few employed in each specialty area, one ends up with a lot of on call time. (Or is this just me?)

That's alright. I prefer small animals, but larger animals would be fun too.

This is kind of like saying you want to be a pediatrician who specializes in working with anti-vaxxer parents.

Sounds all noble and good, but... Really?

That's why I included "try to". In the end, it's the patient's/client's choice what gets done. As long as I get paid for the session, all is well.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

All I can say is working at a low cost S/N Clinic makes me feel like I make a difference in the lives of pet owners and their critters that would otherwise not be able to afford the surgery and would use that as one of the many excuses to bring countless litters into the world.

Do they really do this for pet owners that otherwise couldn't afford it (i.e. do they means test the clients to see if they are in financial difficulty?), or is it just owners who want something cheap? This is a significant issue in the veterinary clinic world.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Do they really do this for pet owners that otherwise couldn't afford it (i.e. do they means test the clients to see if they are in financial difficulty?), or is it just owners who want something cheap? This is a significant issue in the veterinary clinic world.

So all spays and neuters are done pretty darn cheaply. Plus they occasionally get grants from places like PetSmart to do like 200 cats in February for $20 each as cost to owners. Currently there is a "all outdoor cats in Loveland" special going, but I don't remember the price. They get grants to cover around 100 Pit bull spays and neuters for insanely cheap and Chihuahuas on another.
Yes, we/they occasionally get someone driving up in a Bentley to take advantage of the price for their pure bred poodle. We bitch about it too. But we also ask those people to donate to the shelter, clinic, TNR program, pet food pantry...
In order to get free surgery and free or discounted vaccines, free food, and occasionally assistance paying a bill at another vet clinic (I'll explain in a minute), you do need to prove need. The easiest way they have found was letting the government do the background check and we just verify that they are on some sort of government assistance program. They have to spay or neuter EVERY animal in the household. Which means nobody gets to live under the theory that they can make money breeding mongrels in terrible conditions. Hoarders are often gently talked into giving up many of their animals to the shelter or to a local rescue. But elderly and low income people who have fallen on hardship have a way to keep their animals. They have to verify that they are still on assistance every so often to continue on the programs. No new pets unless a previous one died. They try to work hard to make sure that they are helping, not creating a problem.

They have had to create limits on what the clinic can offer for care from the moment they opened their doors so that local vet clinics didn't throw hissy fits about stealing business. (At least some are glad they can send the guy who can only afford $100 for a neuter on his 150 lb pit cross somewhere else rather than having to extend some sort of credit that will never get paid, so they can concentrate on the more able to pay clientele.) But, part of the Prevent a Litter program is allowing low income owners with an emergency to get at least a little help elsewhere too. Classic example: 8 year old Pom presents at the ER with a pyometra. Owner is a older woman with obvious poor dental care and a handicapped child. She has no money but brought her dog in anyway with the last $120 to her name. At the ER that basically only covers an exam. Fixing the pyo plus post care would run about $3000. Sent to the clinic, emergency pyo surgery is $250 out of pocket plus $100 for overnight monitoring with a different local ER that has worked a deal out with the rescue. Or, since they are low income, with the PAL program, in this case they donated $80, but owed nothing and we're sent to the referring ER for post op overnight care on fluids with up to $250 in care covered.
Everybody won because the dog got to live, the ER got more money than they would have and the money came from a program supported by donations and grants.

I know a lot of this will be argued about. I tried to explain clearly and quickly and those don't often work hand in hand for hot button topics, but these people really try and have been at it over 10 years so they have worked out a ton of kinks and had to do a lot of diplomacy with the local doctors to keep going.

Full disclosure: I worked at both the ER and the Rescue Clinic during this story so I can really go into numbers if you want, but everybody really was happy at the end.

 

[battie]

@LadyOtheFarm, down in Denver, we would send people down to Planned Pethood, who did a lot of similar things that you're describing. In order to get the funding/free stuff, you had to bring a pay stub/tax stuff to show you're in need.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

.....In order to get free surgery and free or discounted vaccines, free food, and occasionally assistance paying a bill at another vet clinic (I'll explain in a minute), you do need to prove need. The easiest way they have found was letting the government do the background check and we just verify that they are on some sort of government assistance program. They have to spay or neuter EVERY animal in the household. Which means nobody gets to live under the theory that they can make money breeding mongrels in terrible conditions. Hoarders are often gently talked into giving up many of their animals to the shelter or to a local rescue. But elderly and low income people who have fallen on hardship have a way to keep their animals. They have to verify that they are still on assistance every so often to continue on the programs. No new pets unless a previous one died. They try to work hard to make sure that they are helping, not creating a problem.

Excellent. So few clinics do things like that.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

@LadyOtheFarm, down in Denver, we would send people down to Planned Pethood, who did a lot of similar things that you're describing. In order to get the funding/free stuff, you had to bring a pay stub/tax stuff to show you're in need.

Yeah, basically same deal. A lot of people use Medicaid cards or Food Stamps. They get updated more than once per year normally so we hope it's a good way to verify need. We'll take any government proof of need though over tax forms because then we don't have to go through income to family size crap since someone else already did.