Things I wish I would have known about the match process...

[GopherBrain]

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Well, fellow MS4s, we have done all we can do. The applications are done, the interviews are over, and the ROLs are submitted. All we have left is the waiting....

So, let's use our time to help out those MS3s who foolishly read this board and actually believe that we know what we are talking about. Let's clear up some of the misconceptions about the process.

I'll start by talking about the interviews. They are so relaxed and low stress, it isn't even funny. All those list of common interview questions are SO off base. I had maybe one interviewer all season that threw me a curveball. The rest were just small talk and the old "where do you see your career going"...

 

[swedcrip]

I knew it coming in, but didn't take my own advice.

#1 I'd schedule a few interviews geared towards the bottom of my rank list first. It all depends on how well you interview.

By the 3rd/4th interview, you've likely heard every possible question and have a good response ready. It gets tough at the end (I did 8) to be fully interested in everything you hear, but if it's your top or second choice, I'm sure you could get "up" for the interview. My second and fourth choice were my first 2 interviews and I felt like if they had been last I would have done much better.

Apply early if you want to get interviews everywhere. I think I missed out on a few interviews by programs receiving my materials around Nov 1. It does take 2-3 weeks minimum for SFMATCH to put together your application. That means you have to send everything to them several weeks BEFORE deadlines. Definitely review the deadlines closely by July. Rec letters can take several weeks to get done.

Interviewing is expensive (or at least seems like an easy waste of money) so plan it all out well and early.

Getting more info on programs before picking your list is probably a good idea. This here is a good reserouce if you can private message the right people. I don't think I'd have pick my applied to and interviewed at programs differently, but I didn't know as much as I wish I had before visiting some of them.

Figure out what programs guarantee an intern year before applying. Then maybe apply to other prelim programs accordingly. And for some programs you might want to go prelim even if you don't match neuro, so find out if you can interview separately then even if it is guaranteed. I avoided doing many prelim interviews, but that might turn out to have been dangerous.

Most people I met felt burned out by about interview #8. Tired of interviewing after about 4. But some guys here seem to enjoy it more and go on 15-20. It's a chance to travel, but 8-10 solid choices I'd think would be enough for most.

The one thing I'd definitely do different is to make sure I saw a very interesting neuro case during my rotation. AND took notes to be able to fully present it later. Trying to remember lab values, imaging results, etc 6 months later isn't easy. About half the programs had this question and it's about the only tough question I found out there. Describing your personal strengths/weaknesses - that can be tough if put on the spot, but that only came up once.

I only got asked about Step 2 at my last interview. Taking it in December shouldn't hurt you (maybe at the top 10-20 programs - I don't know about them). Average board scores are considered fine at most non-top 20 programs (can't speak for the rest). Same with average grades.

Have some reason you want to spend 4 years in the city you're interviewing at. Or be able to BS it (I probably couldn't so luckily I applied according to geographic interests).

Build in some extra time traveling the first 1-2 interviews. After that you'll be a pro at airports, rental cars, hotels, packing suitcases, etc.

Never be late. I wasn't (against some of my nature) but think it looked bad when others were.

Cancel interviews well ahead of time. Try not to schedule them if you really know you wouldn't go to a program. Common courtesy.

Looking back I'd have taken Step 2 CS earlier. Registering in November, everything was booked until February though you can usually find a date on a couple days notice and pay to move it up. With how late they're taking to send back reports, I wish I had it past me. I'd have taken Step 2 CK in July probably. I picked up some ICU knowledge fourth year, but probably forgot more from IM.

Make sure to spend time with residents on interviews. It really is the best way to get a feel for a program. I switched my top 2 after interviews.

Get a feel for the academic/private practice goal of a program. If they seem to be overwhelmingly desire to produce fellows and researchers, you might not match well telling them how much you love community-based private practice. You won't sound convincing out-right lying, but be prepared to show interest in research for some programs. You're interviewers may mostly be MD's that spend 90% of their time in the lab. Be honest, but make sure you tell them how you're interests would be a good fit for their program. My impression is that the top 20 or so programs would like to see some med school research or at least above average Step 1 & grades. Outside of these 20 or so programs that so many here are applying to, the rest of neuro really isn't that competitive. After about 40 programs I'd guess many are just actively seeking to recruit US MD graduates.

 

[Rolandicfissure]

Well, fellow MS4s, we have done all we can do. The applications are done, the interviews are over, and the ROLs are submitted. All we have left is the waiting....

So, let's use our time to help out those MS3s who foolishly read this board and actually believe that we know what we are talking about. Let's clear up some of the misconceptions about the process.

I'll start by talking about the interviews. They are so relaxed and low stress, it isn't even funny. All those list of common interview questions are SO off base. I had maybe one interviewer all season that threw me a curveball. The rest were just small talk and the old "where do you see your career going"...

Hehehe. Whose got your undies, Walter?

 

[Rolandicfissure]

Hehehe. Whose got your undies, Walter?

"Does the female form make you uncomfortable, Mr. Lebowski?"
"OH...is that what this is a picture of?"

 

[drgirl]

Hmm...have to agree with everything swedcrip said....a few additions--

Don't rely on 'backup' programs to call you for an interview. There's no such thing as a backup. Conversely, do apply to the 'reach' programs--some of them will invite you.
I agree that it gets very tiring and very old towards the end of the season--I think 7 interviews was my threshold for when I was bored of the whole thing. Definitely schedule a 'practice' interview--I had one and it totally helped me prepare for my next one. Of course, don't treat it like a practice session--you never know what you'll end up ranking.
I took very detailed notes during breaks/on the trip home--it got tiring but definitely helped later on when everything started to blend together--it's useful to make notes of any personal conversation you might have had with an interviewer--you can refer to that in your thank you letter....speaking of which, if you're gonna write thank you's, do them as you go along and don't wait until the end. I personally feel that thank you's are a good idea but there are mixed opinions on this....
um what else???
Rescheduling isn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be.
I wish I was able to stay extra nights in some of the cities I visited...just to get a better feel for the area. It's a good idea, I think, if location is going to be a huge factor in your rank list.
I didn't get many unusual questions, most were very benign and conversational...one interview at my last program was different--he asked me-
"Describe your best day in medical school and why"
"Describe your worst day in med school and why"
"Besides good training, what else do you hope to extract from a residency experience here?"

had to think about those a little before I answered....I got a lot of "why do you think you would fit in well, tell me your strengths etc etc etc", so be prepared to pimp yourself out. 🙄
I made it to every pre-interview dinner except one--and I think that for me personally, the dinners helped a lot. It's a great chance to talk to the residents and see what they're like...during the interview day, you usually mainly see the chiefs all day and meet the others at lunch which is an hour. Plus, attending the dinner gives you some good conversation fodder for the interview day 😛
It was great to meet the fellow applicants--it was nice when you were with a group of people who were open about their interview experiences--there are of course some snotty and competitive people on the trail, but those are definitely the minority. I kinda lost my energy for interview schmoozing towards the end, but I met a lot of very nice people who I am actually still in touch with which is cool.
Remember that anything in your personal statement is fair game for an interviewer....I wrote about a very personal neurology experience with a family member and was kind of wishing I hadn't when I had to talk about it all the time!...should've been obvious to me but wasn't....

That's it for now 😴

 

[swedcrip]

other applicants are a GREAT resource, especially about their home school when you meet them elsewhere

my "practice interview" ended up 4th

don't be shocked if half your interviews end up with one question - "so do you have any questions/what can i tell you". be ready for 30 minutes of a conversation starting there

programs can blur, but taking notes isn't for me. it would have been helpful

it's hard to judge where you'll get interviews starting out. definitely apply to all you're interested in, but to limit expense it'd be good to have some idea. if anyone ever wants to PM some of us with stats, we can roughly estimate your competitiveness at various programs. sure a great personal statement or a contact (especially an away rotation) can get anyone an interview. but more often the stats probably dictate interview offers to a large degree. from there on out, stats become less important. Research, well-connected chair letter, applying BEFORE deadlines, etc may be important at about 10-20 programs IMO. a couple programs hadn't looked at my application by mid-december (were "behind"), so be careful if applying late. otherwise it's not that big of a deal. if you're dead set to get interviews at certain programs, I'd probably call them early/mid November to make sure they've reviewed your application and know your interested (otherwise many will let you know yes/no earlier). Several programs end interviews in mid-decemberl, while others continue until the week before rank lists are due.

Being on top of the process will help. I lucked out in that I got interviews in all but 1 place that I would've ranked highly (and I'm sure that one place - probably #3 on my original list - in the end wouldn't have matched me anyways). Residencies often focus regionally IMO, but for Neuro there are so few programs in total and the majority aren't that competitive, so it isn't the issue I think that is in other fields.

If you're applying all the way across the country (like I did), if you don't hear back in a reasonable amount of time, make sure those programs know you're very interested (maybe give a very short reason why) so they don't think you applied to 50 programs and won't accept an invite or will cancel last minute (that really puts programs in a tough position - wastes their resources). Many programs just want to recruit good applicants. But like elsewhere, nooone likes to be turned down, so some might be conscious of what % accept interviews or no-show.

I definitely think some programs like to match their highest ranked applicants so will consider moving what they perceive to be the more "sure" matches towards the top (allows them to brag in the future). That's speculation and I think it's the minority of programs, but I do think some want to know you're very interested. So be sincere, but show interest. I think this is less of an issue than in med school applications, but still is a factor.

I have no idea still about whether or not to declare a #1 to programs (I didn't firmly decide until the night before rank lists were due). I have no idea about how best someone does thank you notes. Probably it's just important to do them and not say anything that rings an alarm. For programs that care about your interest level, it's a chance to communicate it to them. If you personally connect well with interviewers, the thank-yous probably should be sent to each interviewer. student affairs told us that isn't necessary so I didn't do it (it's more work than you'd think). If done right, it wouldn't hurt. I'd also advise against writing anything at 3 am, this post is a lesson why.

 

[syrinx]

4th year rotations:
I did my neurology core-clerkship at my home institution in July. Child neurology and neuroradiology at an away institution where I was interested in going for neurology residency during August and September. October, did my neurology sub-i at my home hospital.

Step 2: Did CS early Jan and CK will be done end of Jan. I would recommend getting these out of the way but not a big deal when you take it. Unless you are not happy with your Step 1 score, programs don't need to see Step 2 CK score at application time.

Applications: Applied to 28 program. Received 28 interviews. I went overboard here. In hindsight, should have applied to 15 max. My application was received by CAS on Sept 22. I had absolutely no problems getting my interview dates of choice so sending in your app very early gives you NO advantage. Submitting very late is a bad idea as your choices of dates will be slim.

Interviews: Scheduled 18 interviews, attended 14. Interviews are exhausting. Be prepared to meet with 4-8 faculty members with various interests. Who will you interview with? Depends. At places like BIDMC (my first interview), I only met with faculty with similar research and clinical interests as mine. At other places like UPenn, Partners, UCSF, WashU, a committee of faculty interview all the applicants. Partners had 2 on 1 interviews. All my interviews were highly conversational and pleasant.
Common questions were "tell me about your research", "why neurology", "how is Dr. X, the chairman of neurology at your school doing?","do you have any geographic restrictions?", "are you married?".

I NEVER GOT PIMPED. But beware a few others in my interview groups did. My feeling is that if you are IMG, have a relatively weak academic record, or a person who only recently found neurology, your chances for getting pimped in neurology is much higher. Thus, you may want to have an interesting case or something ready to present . I hear Gendelmann at Mount Sinai likes to pimp.

Someone before mentioned never be late. I was actually late to 2 interviews. Misjudged morning traffic. Probabaly not a big deal if you are late but don't make it a habit.

Thank you letters: I was good about it for my first two interviews. Created an MS Word template which helped but didn't feel like bothering with it anymore. I ended up emailing the PD a short TY message to the rest of the programs. I actually think emailing is better. Plus, it gives the PD an easy opportunity to reply back to you and give you his comments.

The Match: we'll see!

 

[swedcrip]

I didn't do a sub-i in Neurology or Medicine. Probably would help for the top tier programs but otherwise the issue never came up. My school was late reporting my Neurology clerkship grade (very late) so it wasn't even on my transcript when I interviewed. The issue never really came up. I did only 1 real neuro subspecialty elective 4th year (child) and no away rotations. Never really an issue either. If you really want to match at a program you might not be overly competitive for on paper, an away rotation would be a good way to sell yourself. I felt like it might end up hurting me since 4th year is not the most motivating year of med school.

Most all interviews were really low-stress. But you never know until you get there. Talking with other applicants that have already interviewed the same season is probably one of the best ways to prepare/relax yourself.

 

[Optimistic]

Thanks everyone for the very informative postings🙂

 

[drgirl]

Regarding thank you letters--from what I got from speaking to fellow applicants, most were sending them--however there were definitely people who weren't. Like I said earlier, opinion is mixed on this issue. Personally, I feel like they wouldn't hurt you, but might help, especially if a program expects it. Whether you send it to just the PD or everyone is up to you. I'm pretty anal about stuff like this so I just sent them to all my interviewers at the places I was planning to rank. I had 4 templates--chair, PD, faculty and secretary--and just adjusted them accordingly. It is A LOT of work though. I did follow up at my top programs by email later on in the season.

I did get pimped at my first interview--very odd experience--and the same guy apparently did this to everyone he interviewed. I had heard that Gendelmann from Sinai pimps--it didn't happen to me but did to others in my interview group. It's definitely not the norm though.

Another thing--if you don't hear from a program, but are going to be interviewing in the area, let them know that you'll be in the city on these dates, you're looking forward to hearing from them, etc etc. Also, if you don't hear from a place, just call them up--a lot of times they will tell you yes or no over the phone and it just makes planning a lot easier.

 

[adoggie]

what is this pimping you speak of?

 

[Fantasy Sports]

I absolutely adore this thread, thanks to all who are posting in it! 👍

I just have a couple questions, a few of which have been referenced before.

1. How many away rotations would you recommend? Id like to go to a to p 25ish program (Im not being greedy persay, I just want to do a neuro fellowship)

2. If you are mainly applying to top 25ish programs, how many programs should one apply to in general to be safe? I get the feeling applying to 20 is too many, but that applying to 10 might be too few. Is this a good assessment?

3. What else can a third-year do to improve his or her chances of matching in neurology? I am about to take a few months off to do some neuro research (I had done research during the preclinical years, but not in neuro. Actually, its more related to the fellowship I hope to pursue).

4. Are there any electives you wish you had taken? I get the impression that a med sub-I is useful. What about electives in radiology and neurosurgery (assuming you have taken a good number of neuro electives?)

5. This thread rules, once I actually know something useful Ill try to contribute too. Someone make this a stick! 😀

 

[swedcrip]

Fantasy Sports, I'll let someone else answer the top-25 related questions, because I didn't want a career in research and specifically avoided many of them!

I'd guess research would help. I threw in a few of the "name" schools when applying. I think my lack of reserach (none during med school) hurt my chances of getting interviews at some of them.

I think electives are only useful in 2 ways. Preparing you for the future. And audtioning for outside programs. Otherwise I never had anyone comment to me - so I see you're taking Radiology, etc. If you have a specific interest in a fellowship, an elective would give you something to talk about. I consider 4th year a last opportunity to learn about other subjects in medicine. I think I'll get a sufficient amount of Neuro over 3 years of residency (you get about 6 months - 1 year of electives at most programs during residency

My school would only allow 3 away rotations, otherwise I don't think there is any "limit". If you feel like you'd audition well and want to financially do it (some programs may have housing for you, others won't) then you probably should go away to your top choices.

med sub-i is useful in 2 ways IMO. Preparation for intern year. And some medicine programs might want it (you apply separately for prelim year). At the more competitive prelim places, it might be a requirement. I didn't really interview but at 1 outside prelim program (my top 4 choices all "guarantee" a prelim year = no interview). But a medicine chair's letter (which I also didn't have) and a med sub-i may be things to do for your prelim applications. Definitely not required everywhere.

things I think help in the match (in no specific order)
- research (definitely at top 20 programs),
- step 1 (above average probably good idea for top 20),
- grades (top half of your class for top 20, neuro rotation itself suprisingly wasn't an issue at non top-20 places - I honored it but it wasn't on my transcript they had)
- away rotations (likely automatic interview at the program if they like you; no rec letter is more valuable than a good one from a well-conneted person outside of your home institution (away rotation) - they have no reason to put themself on the line for you just to make sure their own instition matches well),
- rec letters (you only get 3, 1 definitely should be in neuro, probably your Chair if your looking at top 20 programs; there is the opportunity to send an extra letter in if it's from a rotation that is from mid-4th year; you'll probably need an IM letter for prelim applications; I got very positive comments on my letters during interviews and think they'll help me match better - none were from chairs - that was on purpose cause I wantedt them from faculty that knew me well)
- connections (personal connections to chair or Program Director, or a call from your chair/faculty to someone they know at the outside place), and
- maybe your med school rep (outside the top 20 (maybe 40) I'd think most US MD's from any school will get interviews unless there's some bad black mark on your record; Outside the top 50 or so on play74's list I saw more DO's and FMG at interviews; I saw no carribean (not counting Puerto Rico) US graduates at the 2 programs I interviewed at not on play74's list). There seem to be many Indian and European trained MD's applying to Neuro. I'd guess most find a match somewhere. About the same for DO's (not sure what else they'd look for from DO's - probably higher standards for class rank & board scores)

Step 2 didn't seem to be an issue, maybe it is at the top 20 schools? Of course a good interview helps. Some places I think the interview was more them trying to sell the place and NOTHING to do with how I'd be ranked. At other places they probably tally up evaluations from each interviewer and get a total # to use to help rank everyone.

If you want to do EVERYTHING to maximize your chances, then electives doing research & away rotations maybe should be done. I'll let some of the more academic-track MDs here comment on that (they know much more than me about that).

Since programs are interviewing about 40 people for 4 slots at many places, they actually do remember everyone come rank time (can't imagine how IM programs do it). I didn't interview at any programs with more than 5 residents each class, so bigger programs may work things differently that what I know of.

 

[GopherBrain]

1. How many away rotations would you recommend? Id like to go to a to p 25ish program (Im not being greedy persay, I just want to do a neuro fellowship)

I did exactly zero away rotations, and did very well with getting interviews. I think that audition rotations are only necessary if you have just one or two programs that you have your heart set on. You can go, and try your best to impress them, at very least you will guarantee yourself interview requests. If your only goal is to go "top 25", then just do as many as you feel like (or none) and concentrate on the rest of your application.

2. If you are mainly applying to top 25ish programs, how many programs should one apply to in general to be safe? I get the feeling applying to 20 is too many, but that applying to 10 might be too few. Is this a good assessment?

Your assessment is right, but incomplete. After the first 10 programs (which are a flat fee of 50 bucks I believe) the next ten programs are only 10 bucks a pop. So you can apply to 20 programs for $150. This whole process is so expensive, it is stupid to try to cut costs by under-applying. So send your application to anyone you like - you can always turn down interviews.

3. What else can a third-year do to improve his or her chances of matching in neurology? I am about to take a few months off to do some neuro research (I had done research during the preclinical years, but not in neuro. Actually, its more related to the fellowship I hope to pursue).

You need to show a demonstrated interest in neurology. Join your schools SIGN (Student Interest Group in Neurology) chapter, and be active. If your school does not have a SIGN chapter, start one (I did this, and it came up in every interview). Or just find some other way to expose yourself to the field and prove your dedication.

4. Are there any electives you wish you had taken? I get the impression that a med sub-I is useful. What about electives in radiology and neurosurgery (assuming you have taken a good number of neuro electives?)

There are two schools of thought on this. One says focus on your strengths (take med sub-Is, extra psych, neurosurgery, lots of neuro electives) and the other says don't recreate your internship/residency, use your elective time on things that you will never do again. I fall into the second school. I don't think programs care much either way.

 

[Bonobo]

I've been through hell and back again. Due to several unforseen events this year, the sfmatch decided to *not* help those of us trying to match with someone going through the NRMP. I wish I had known how difficult this was going to be and ended up having to drop my 5 top choices simply due to a couple's match system gone wrong. Fortunately, 3 of the 16 places I applied to were willing to help us out and we will end up somewhere fine.

You may PM me if you think you will be in this situation this fall.

B

 

[Chesney]

I'm in the same situation and just found out that the SFmatch people couldn't help this year. The whole thing has been a huge pain! We applied a lot of places and just like you, found a few that say they are willing to try to work with us. Hopefully it will work out in the end. Goodluck to you guys!

I've been through hell and back again. Due to several unforseen events this year, the sfmatch decided to *not* help those of us trying to match with someone going through the NRMP. I wish I had known how difficult this was going to be and ended up having to drop my 5 top choices simply due to a couple's match system gone wrong. Fortunately, 3 of the 16 places I applied to were willing to help us out and we will end up somewhere fine.

You may PM me if you think you will be in this situation this fall.

B

 

[JMD]

"- maybe your med school rep (outside the top 20 (maybe 40) "


I'm curious about this... how dominant are applicants from top 10 med schools at top 10-20 neuro programs. Or should I say, how often do you see applicants from lower ranked med schools interviewing at, say, UCSF, Columbia, etc?

I know everyone hates the "what are my chances" posts, but can a decent student (top 25%) from a SUNY w/ decent board scores (~235) hope to get a few interviews at the "Big Name" programs.

I'd like to say congrats to all of you who have been interviewing this year. You all seem to have done quite well as far as interviews go and I hope to do half as well when I'm applying. Hope all of you end up with big smiles on your faces on Thursday.

 

[swedcrip]

"- maybe your med school rep (outside the top 20 (maybe 40) "


I'm curious about this... how dominant are applicants from top 10 med schools at top 10-20 neuro programs. Or should I say, how often do you see applicants from lower ranked med schools interviewing at, say, UCSF, Columbia, etc?

I know everyone hates the "what are my chances" posts, but can a decent student (top 25%) from a SUNY w/ decent board scores (~235) hope to get a few interviews at the "Big Name" programs.

I'd like to say congrats to all of you who have been interviewing this year. You all seem to have done quite well as far as interviews go and I hope to do half as well when I'm applying. Hope all of you end up with big smiles on your faces on Thursday.

I'd guess that'd be enough to get an interview, but probably not at 100% of the top 10-20s. I'd guess a majority would grant an interview. But when it comes to actually matching, I'd say a slight disadvantage to anyone with similar #'s from a top20 med school. Connections influence this also. I'd guess that profile would match somewhere in the top 20, but my #'s weren't quite as good, so I couldn't say for sure. I think those here with that profile are doing very well this match. I doubt I'm going to a "top 20" so someone else here could give you a clearer answer. Probably competitive but not a shoe-in for those programs. With good grades and an above average board score, you're med school shouldn't hurt you much at all (med school rep is a small factor IMO), but at the top 5 programs I'd guess those that match have a little stronger of a profile.

 

[kasimagore1]

well, a suny downstate graduate will be a first year neuro resident at Columbia, if that's what you are asking. Although reputation of med school helps, it is much more important at the individual level. Most graduates of top 10 med schools do not choose neuro as a career, whereas some schools (albert einstein, for example) traditionally produce disproportionate number of prospective neuro residents. Also, the name factor of your LOR author is very important. An awesome letter from known neurologists (Damasio, Broderick, Hauser, etc) probably counts whole lot more than your med school's reputation. Although I do have to agree that you tend to see more people from the top tier med schools interviewing at the elite 5 programs (and not apparently so at other strong programs), you also see a few candidates from average med schools who you would meet at these top program interviews again and again. Like everyone else has said, neuro is not that competitive, and to match at a strong programs, all you need is to show a strong, earnest interest in neurology, decent grade, above average step 1, preferably a few publications, and excellent recommendations from well known academic neurologists. To overcome the name factor of your med school, simply do an audition rotation at your dream program(s), and do reasonably well, you will get an interview invite.....that's in itself a great accomplishment. I remember during my UCSF interview last year, there were 7 of us. 4 were from top schools (JHU, Columbia, Harvard, Penn), while the rest three from average schools who all did visiting clerkship at UCSF. Considering they only invited 30-40 applicants for interview, it certainly gave you an edge over other hundreds of applicants.

 

[drssr]

hey thare!thanks for the post on"things i wish i knew before the match"!that really helped.

 

[grunermann]

Bump for the people coming up