Third year grades?

[rach4214]

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How important are third year grades in applying for residency in neurology? I'm talking actual numbers here, like if you wanted to match at a top tier program (Brigham, MGH, Mayo, Stanford, etc.), what kind of honors/high pass/fail ratio are we talking about here?

 

[typhoonegator]

Well, Brigham and MGH are one program, so that's one load off your conscience.

Seriously though, it really depends on your program. Some programs give everyone honors and high pass, and others you really fight for it. Program directors tend to know which ones do each.

Also, you're applying to neurology, not derm. The programs you've listed are much more likely to be interested in a clear dedication to neurology research and practice than the knowledge that you high-passed surgery and OB.

I went to a tough-grading school, honored medicine, OB/GYN, neurology, and psych only, and got into a program I found to be more than acceptable.

 

[PhakeDoc]

you're applying to neurology, not derm.

True, but I think from everyone I've met on the trail, neurology seems to turning in to a tougher specialty to enter than ever before, at least at the top-tier programs.

Having said that, to the OP, a lot also depends on what you've done outside of school. If you went straight from undergrad to med school and are now applying to residency without research, etc., than I think grades will matter more than if you were a MD/PhD, had another life outside of med school, etc.

One place where I think scores and grades definitely seem to make a difference (as well as location) is for prelim medicine interviews, especially California.

 

[typhoonegator]

True, but I think from everyone I've met on the trail, neurology seems to turning in to a tougher specialty to enter than ever before, at least at the top-tier programs.

Heh. That's apparently been true every year there have been medical students to discuss it. I'm pretty sure I said the same thing when I was going through the process. I've never met anyone who said, "you know, this specialty is really dying off. Thank god us dumb folks have a shot at it now." 🙂

There are more applicants than ever, competing for spots. And you are right, PhakeDoc, there has been a slow and steady increase in applicant quality by numeric markers, at least where I've been. So yeah, grades matter. But believe me, the total package matters a lot more. That means research, a coherent PS, good board scores, decent letters, etc. You aren't going to be turned down for interviews at top programs because you didn't honor or even high pass all your clerkships. Then again, you probably can't fail any either. Conversely, someone with all honors and a middling board score and no research is not going to get a free pass.

What I was trying to communicate with my prior post is that some medical schools, particularly some of the "top 10", tend to give out honors and high-passes like candy. It loses meaning. If you go somewhere like that, then yeah, you need to keep up with the Joneses. However, if you go somewhere with miserly MS3 honor rates, don't stress about it. PDs are smart, and they know the score on these issues. Worry about you, and round out the rest of your portfolio.

 

[95439]

There are more applicants than ever, competing for spots. And you are right, PhakeDoc, there has been a slow and steady increase in applicant quality by numeric markers, at least where I've been. So yeah, grades matter. But believe me, the total package matters a lot more. That means research, a coherent PS, good board scores, decent letters, etc. You aren't going to be turned down for interviews at top programs because you didn't honor or even high pass all your clerkships. Then again, you probably can't fail any either. Conversely, someone with all honors and a middling board score and no research is not going to get a free pass.

What I was trying to communicate with my prior post is that some medical schools, particularly some of the "top 10", tend to give out honors and high-passes like candy. It loses meaning. If you go somewhere like that, then yeah, you need to keep up with the Joneses. However, if you go somewhere with miserly MS3 honor rates, don't stress about it. PDs are smart, and they know the score on these issues. Worry about you, and round out the rest of your portfolio.

BOARD SCORES BOARD SCORES BOARD SCORES. I applied a LOT of places. Board scores were far and away the best indicator of the 'tier' of school I got interviews at. I even had a PD at one of the top programs say they loved my application but I'd need to bring my board scores up more. If you don't believe me, I can tell you the rest of my application stats..I'd just rather not post them publicly. But trust me, from what I know, it's board scores. Ace your Step 1 AND Step 2 and you can interview anywhere..

 

[rach4214]

What kind of board scores are we talking for the "top tier" programs in neurology?

 

[typhoonegator]

Tough question to answer. You see people with 250+, and you see MD/PhDs with 10 high-level publications and 220s. The average scores are freely available, but there is such a large range that it can be hard to draw conclusions. You'll get looked at, at least, if you have a score that is around/above the average for neurology. I'm not really sure how many high-level programs have a cutoff below which you will be automatically rejected.

 

[95439]

Tough question to answer. You see people with 250+, and you see MD/PhDs with 10 high-level publications and 220s. The average scores are freely available, but there is such a large range that it can be hard to draw conclusions. You'll get looked at, at least, if you have a score that is around/above the average for neurology. I'm not really sure how many high-level programs have a cutoff below which you will be automatically rejected.

I'll just say it, I did average on boards and got interviews everywhere except for the really competitive neurology programs (Mass General, Cornell, UCSF, etc...). The rest of my application was pretty damn good and well rounded though, which helped. But again, I even spoke with a program director at a very competitive program, and he urged me to bring my Step 2 up because he wanted to give me an interview, but couldn't unless I was above average. So do well on your boards - that's the most important thing. Having said that, don't slack on any other aspect of your application - get good grades, DEFINITELY good grades and evals in Neurology rotations, and try and do at least 1 research project (hopefully that will be published). Neuro 'may be getting harder to get into', but it's still not that bad and you'll be surprised at where you're able to interview. Best of luck!

 

[rach4214]

bblue, can I ask what your Step 1 was? If not, a general range? Also, did you not take Step 2 in time?

(I could very well look this up, but what is the avg Step 1 score for Top TIer neuro programs?)

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Acherona]

well according to the surverys PD's fill out, it's 3rd year grades that are most important. This is consistent with my experience.

 

[undecided3yr]

For consideration at top tier programs you need honors and a deviation above the norm on board scores or be related to someone important. Some institutions you almost need to have a PhD as well.

Luckily that really is only for a handful of programs such as Columbia, MGH, Hopkins, UCSF, Mayo. I wouldn't sweat this too much unless your projected career path leads you to write stroke guidelines someday.