Thoughts on any of these 4 programs?

[Dr1216]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I'm finally done with the interview season and have been thinking about a couple of programs, especially these 4: UVA, VCU, USC/Palmetto, and UMDNJ-RWJ. I like all of these programs because they seem to emphasis education of residents vs pure service and they have good exposure to therapy. None of them seemed to be malignant either, which is important to me. However, I like all of them for different reasons and they all have their pluses and minuses. I figured that I'd throw it out to you guys to see what you guys think of these programs. Does anyone have any thoughts about any of these programs in relation to each other?

 

[nitemagi]

I'm finally done with the interview season and have been thinking about a couple of programs, especially these 4: UVA, VCU, USC/Palmetto, and UMDNJ-RWJ. I like all of these programs because they seem to emphasis education of residents vs pure service and they have good exposure to therapy. None of them seemed to be malignant either, which is important to me. However, I like all of them for different reasons and they all have their pluses and minuses. I figured that I'd throw it out to you guys to see what you guys think of these programs. Does anyone have any thoughts about any of these programs in relation to each other?

As stated over and over and over again in threads like this, it's best if you FIRST post Your own thoughts about each program. People are then more likely to feel like they want to contribute.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I only interviewed at one of the 4 - Palmetto, and I loved it. I ranked it highly, but not #1 due to location.

 

[whopper]

UMDNJ-RWJ

There's four of these, one in Newark, New Brunswick, Camden, and Stratford NJ. Out of all of these, New Brunswick is the most competitive, has the most research, and is more academic intense in the sense that it has a forensic and child fellowship. It may also have an addiction fellowship (it's been years, I don't specifically remember).

I graduated from the Camden program, but was in a separate hospital outside of Camden. That program is split with 2/3 of the residents in Camden, 1/3 outside of it in Atlantic City.

I enjoyed my experience overall in A.C. but I did see some problems, that being no research there whatsoever, and there were some bad attendings that didn't know WTF they were doing. There is something of a disconnect between the two programs. E.g. while I was there, the PD at Camden and the PD at A.C. didn't communicate well. The left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. This didn't affect residents much but it did tick me off as a chief resident because often times the Camden PD would call up the AC PD and she'd get no call back and I had to act as an in-between, and sometimes I'd get shot down as the messenger of bad news ("I don't know why Dr. B isn't calling you back. He ignores me too.")

And overall, every program I've seen had problems, so despite them, I figured overall I got a good experience. And no matter what anyone says, I've yet to see a place without any bad doctors.

The A.C. program did have a lot of good things including good clinical exposure with an involuntary and voluntary unit, an emergency psych facility, an ACT team (known as PACT teams in other states), a good diversity of patients (servicing an entire county), and a huge drug abusing population. In terms of lifestyle, there was no all-nighter call, they had a restraint duty, where residents starting second year could earn about $1000 a week taking up this duty that usually ended up being no work at all (you only had to work if someone was put in restraints, but you did have to hold the beeper on you during the week at all times and be within a one hour drive to the hospital during that week), free food (and it was pretty good free food).

The attendings in general were not malignant. Yes, there were bad attendings but they weren't mean,they were usually just clueless and let residents do everything. E.g. one guy (Dr. B) would have a guy in the hospital for a week, you'd present him (He's doing better, I think we can discharge him...Dr B: Who's that guy? I didn't even know he was my patient).

Another problem, though I've seen this everywhere, is that sometimes nurses would abuse residents. They answered to nurse managers, and their check and balance system was independent to the residents. Attendings, for example, could be rated by residents, but if a nurse got out of line, they had no resident feedback. While in general the nurses were fine, on occasion some intentionally misled a resident, hoping to take advantage of them.

 

[Dr1216]

@TexasPhysician: Thanks! I really liked that program too. But location is also one of the few drawbacks for me about it.

@Whopper: Thanks for sharing that information! Though I was referring to UMDNJ-RWJ in New Brunswick, I did also interview at the Camden one as well so the information that you shared is still helpful for me. Would you say that the AC campus may have offered more than the Camden one that you were at?

@nitemagi: Thanks for your comment but I don't really have much else to say in regards of my thoughts. I pretty much summed up why I liked all the programs, hence why I'm confused and trying to see what others think about them or how they'd rank them.

 

[atsai3]

@TexasPhysician: Thanks! I really liked that program too. But location is also one of the few drawbacks for me about it.

@Whopper: Thanks for sharing that information! Though I was referring to UMDNJ-RWJ in New Brunswick, I did also interview at the Camden one as well so the information that you shared is still helpful for me. Would you say that the AC campus may have offered more than the Camden one that you were at?

@nitemagi: Thanks for your comment but I don't really have much else to say in regards of my thoughts. I pretty much summed up why I liked all the programs, hence why I'm confused and trying to see what others think about them or how they'd rank them.

I think nitemagi may have been referring to this part of your post:

I like all of them for different reasons and they all have their pluses and minuses​

What pluses and minuses do you perceive in these 4 programs?

 

[Dr1216]

Bumping!!

This was my perception of each solely based on interview day

USC:
Pros: friendly faculty, great camaraderie, happy residents, seemingly more relaxed atmosphere with great work-life balance (great call schedule), emphasis on quality of rotations (in terms of education), low COL, Great benefits and pay
Cons: not sure about the strength of didactics, location (for some-Columbia is a small-midsize city IMO but with some things to do and more interesting cities within 1-3 hrs away; my issue is more so that it is furthest from my home), seems more geared towards people with families (i'm single)

VCU:
Pros: good faculty (some of who are big contributors to the field of psych), Great didactics training, location (Richmond has a fair amount of things to do but outside of that, it's closest to home), curriculum is customizable in some areas, most opportunities to grow in my field, strong therapy( begins in 2nd year) and CL, Call leaves 2 golden weekends/mth in 1st year, reimbursed gas money for 1-2 month rotation that is ~1hr away, broad range of inhouse electives, specialty units
Cons: Poor benefits and mediocre pay (no food, book stipend, conference stipend, and not sure about boards coverage), mostly IMGs & FMGs (not necessarily bad but it makes me wonder why it isn't more competitive & if I'd fit in well), Current PD of 20+ years is going to be replaced(though he's only moving to a supervisory position but still...), Call is constantly described as "overwhelming" at times, 3-4 months of night float (idk if this is good or bad), not sure if patient population will be extremely diverse, older units

RWJ:
Pros: Faculty all seemed very open and refreshingly honest, embrace work-life balance, excellent PD and PC, unique, didactic training system (at least for intro courses ie: scavenger hunt to learn psych hx, horror movies to learn pathology), Great pay and benefits, friendly residents with seemingly good camaraderie, location (45 min from NY on train, 45 min from Philly, still close enough to home to get there in a few hrs), exposure to a huge variety of patient populations & facilities, People actually enjoy their medicine experience! (random), attend psych didactics even on off service except for neurology
Cons: Travel! many sites 30-45 minutes away (plus in NJ that means lots of tolls on the turnpike), Highest COL of all, not as much opportunity to be exposed to field of interest, facilities older, call schedule gets busy 2nd year


UVA:
Pros: Faculty, nice facilities, residents with a lot of personality and seemed happy, location (not too far from home), Patty groups (support groups for residents on a regular basis), ability to customize residency experience with tracks, additional week off during christmas or ny
Cons: location (charlottesville is a small college town; not sure how much there is to really do), education? There seemed to be hesitancy when discussing teaching experience ,not sure about population diversity, less therapy exposure if not in track

 

[psychphan]

I only interviewed at two of those places, USC Palmetto and UVA, but I will share my thoughts on the two programs. But first, in regards to your initial post, I found it interesting as UVA seemed to be heavy on the service side of the education-service continuum, more so than most places I interviewed and definitely much more so than Palmetto.

As far as my impressions of the programs. Palmetto is a friendly, collegial, environment that stresses life-work balance. As far as the academic strength, I would say it is in psychotherapy. However, the big 'draw', or at least what was pitched the most to me on my interview day, was the high quality lifestyle residents were able to attain. That being said, residents seemed more passionate about what they do then at some other cush programs I know of. I will say though, that Palmetto definitely has a community feel more so than an academic center. I base this on the facilities, need to utilize multiple small psych facilities especially for the inpt time, lack of research, and overall general feel. I am not saying this is a bad thing, as some may prefer this setting, but its something to consider.

UVA on the other had is definitely more of an academic institution. There are many more research opportunities if thats something you are interested in. There are also a number of specialty tracks, plus fellowships that aren't available at Palmetto. I would think UVA would be a better place to be if you are interested in a career in academia. Plus UVA is beautiful, and Charlottesville is likely a more appealing place to live than Columbia for most people (I didn't necessarily mind Columbia, although I'm not thrilled with the idea of living in the Bible Belt in a city that has a rebel flag hanging on the city hall building). That being said, as I mentioned earlier it seems to be heavy on the service vs education, and definitely is not lax in terms of daily schedule or call.

As far as patient diversity and diversity of psychopathology, I don't think either is particularly diverse. At least that was my impression.

Bottom line Palmetto-friendlier enviroment, better lifestyle, stress on education
UVA- more educational/career options, more academic, and more desirable city

I'm not set on my own list yet, but as of now UVA seems like a better fit for me than Palmetto. As far as you, I guess you have to decide what are the most important factors for you.

 

[digitlnoize]

I only interviewed at two of those places, USC Palmetto and UVA, but I will share my thoughts on the two programs. But first, in regards to your initial post, I found it interesting as UVA seemed to be heavy on the service side of the education-service continuum, more so than most places I interviewed and definitely much more so than Palmetto.

As far as my impressions of the programs. Palmetto is a friendly, collegial, environment that stresses life-work balance. As far as the academic strength, I would say it is in psychotherapy. However, the big 'draw', or at least what was pitched the most to me on my interview day, was the high quality lifestyle residents were able to attain. That being said, residents seemed more passionate about what they do then at some other cush programs I know of. I will say though, that Palmetto definitely has a community feel more so than an academic center. I base this on the facilities, need to utilize multiple small psych facilities especially for the inpt time, lack of research, and overall general feel. I am not saying this is a bad thing, as some may prefer this setting, but its something to consider.

UVA on the other had is definitely more of an academic institution. There are many more research opportunities if thats something you are interested in. There are also a number of specialty tracks, plus fellowships that aren't available at Palmetto. I would think UVA would be a better place to be if you are interested in a career in academia. Plus UVA is beautiful, and Charlottesville is likely a more appealing place to live than Columbia for most people (I didn't necessarily mind Columbia, although I'm not thrilled with the idea of living in the Bible Belt in a city that has a rebel flag hanging on the city hall building). That being said, as I mentioned earlier it seems to be heavy on the service vs education, and definitely is not lax in terms of daily schedule or call.

As far as patient diversity and diversity of psychopathology, I don't think either is particularly diverse. At least that was my impression.

Bottom line Palmetto-friendlier enviroment, better lifestyle, stress on education
UVA- more educational/career options, more academic, and more desirable city

I'm not set on my own list yet, but as of now UVA seems like a better fit for me than Palmetto. As far as you, I guess you have to decide what are the most important factors for you.

Agree with pretty much all of this. I did a month of C-L at Palmetto and agree that it's very friendly, laid back, but provides a great education. Definitely feels more "community" based though, which is more of a personal choice.

Only other big thing to keep in mind for these two is Cost of Living. Housing in Cville is MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive than in Columbia and the surrounding area. Columbia would also be a much better place if you're single. The bar area there in The Vista is much more happening than pretty much anywhere in Charlottesville. Columbia is also growing (tons of new construction, both homes and business). Cville is kind of growing, but went through it's huge phase of growth over the last 20 years and seems to be slowing down somewhat. The only place on my list that has had a population DECREASE (-8%) over the last 10 years.

Other things to consider:

Palmetto has a VA, UVA does not. Do you care?

UVA does a LOT more C-L. Is that an interest of yours? I hope so, lol.

Palmetto does a LOT more outpatient (all of 2nd year and most of 3rd, lol). Is THAT an interest of yours.

UVA's state hospital site (1 month for sure, maybe more) involves a 45min-1 hour drive, each way daily. Ok with that? At least they have one. Palmetto does too, but it's right there in town.

Palmetto has arguably better benefits, especially the retirement matching after PGY-1. That's a TON of free money. Few places offer this.

Palmetto has TONS of LOCAL moonlighting. There's not much in terms of moonlighting in Cville, unless you're willing to drive that hour out to the state hospital, which isn't that bad...at least it's a nice drive 🙂

Anyways...it all depends on what you're looking for.

Palmetto is the better choice FINANCIALLY (given the slightly higher pay, retirement matching, and greatly lower cost of living).

Palmetto is the better choice for LIFESTYLE (at least for 1st and 2nd year). They even out at 3rd year, I think.

UVA is the better choice for ACADEMIC OPPORTUNITIES and BRAND RECOGNITION. You'll still be a great psychiatrist at Palmetto though, and their program is very well known in the field for turning out good docs.

I think that, post residency, Palmetto probably has more job opportunities, at least for private practice. To stay in Cville, you'd probably have to work out at the aforementioned state hospital, or stay at UVA. There's a good number of well-established and not-too-old private practice docs in town, at least for general psych. Child might be another story.

Anyways...both are great, but totally different. Depends on what you're looking for.

 

[psychphan]

UVA's state hospital site (1 month for sure, maybe more) involves a 45min-1 hour drive, each way daily. Ok with that? At least they have one. Palmetto does too, but it's right there in town.

.

Lots of good info in that last post, I just want to add one thing. The Palmetto 'state hospital' is really a state hospital in name (and I guess source of funding) alone. Its a big facility but from my understanding due to massive state budget cuts it now only consists of 1 small (20 some bed) gen adult unit. Not really a state hospital in the true sense of the word. UVA's state hospital, on the other hand, in what most think of when they think of a state psych hospital, 250+ bed facility with specialty units and that houses many chronic long term mentally ill.

 

[Dr1216]

Thank you psychphan and digitlnoize for your contributions! You have both brought up some good points in regards to what each program offers over each other. I too agree that UVA seemed more on the service end of the continuum & more academic especially compared to USC. Yet even so, the residents at UVA still seemed pretty happy and well adjusted. However, those at USC definitely seemed both happy and at ease. Hmm...some more thinking to do.....

 

[digitlnoize]

Lots of good info in that last post, I just want to add one thing. The Palmetto 'state hospital' is really a state hospital in name (and I guess source of funding) alone. Its a big facility but from my understanding due to massive state budget cuts it now only consists of 1 small (20 some bed) gen adult unit. Not really a state hospital in the true sense of the word. UVA's state hospital, on the other hand, in what most think of when they think of a state psych hospital, 250+ bed facility with specialty units and that houses many chronic long term mentally ill.

The Western State Hospital facility is moving though, to a smaller, more modern unit a couple miles away from the current, old mega-plex. I'm not sure what the new bed count is going to be, but it might be significantly smaller. Might be more info on the Virginia Department of Mental Health Website...I just got off work, I'll try and dig it up tomorrow...

 

[Bartelby]

UVA:
Cons: location (charlottesville is a small college town; not sure how much there is to really do), education? There seemed to be hesitancy when discussing teaching experience ,not sure about population diversity, less therapy exposure if not in track

Of this list I only interviewed at UVa, but I have a lot of experience with Charlottesville. It's really a nice town for me. We have lots of restaurants, hiking and biking locally, plenty of clubs through UVa and some in the local community, cheap movies through Newcomb Hall's cinematheque (when it reopens), fairly good weather. UVa has lots of ongoing and scheduled art exhibits, cultural events, and guest speakers. We have an ice skating rink and a nice outdoor downtown mall. Up 29N there are lots of businesses that are an easy drive. If you want to spend some money, we have tons of great shows that come through JPJ, skiing/snowboarding is around 1 hr (I think) away, you can make a longer trip to West Virginia (a few hours) for great whitewater rafting or skiing.

So you are correct that it is a smaller college town, but to me there is plenty to do! That said, I have never lived in a big city and I bet there are more options there simply because of the size of the city. I also bet there are lots of hassles that you will not face to the same extent in Charlottesville, like parking problems, noise problems, heavy pollution, high crime, and a major separation from anything resembling real nature.

Cost of living is sort of high for a small town though; expect to pay $800/mo for a one bedroom apartment at cheapest. You can, however, get two bedrooms for a comparable amount and cut your rent if you wanted to go that route. You can also buy or rent homes nearby for much less than you would find in a big city (but do some online searches to see prices if you are considering this).

So basically I have no idea how Charlottesville stacks up against the others on your list, but I can say that I have been very happy living here!

 

[MedSchoolFool]

I went to VCU for med school and although I think several of the psych attendings are nice enough people, every psych resident I worked with was pretty much miserable. VCU has what I would categorize as a malignant culture (not the psych program, per se, so much as the entire hospital in general). The more places I interviewed at the more I began to realize what an unhappy place it is. The year I graduated there were 7 people going into psychiatry and I don't think any of us even ranked VCU. And yeah..the benefits and pay are really poor...which is a proper reflection on how much they seem to value their residents.

Interviewed at Palmetto and thought it seemed like a really decent program for the day I was there. The residents seemed happy but a little bit nervous, too. I thought two of the attendings I interviewed with had that snide VCU vibe, but how much can you know in a 30 minute interview? I did rank them, but at number 7.

 

[Dr1216]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread! I've gotten a lot of helpful information.

Also, I just wanted to share some other information that I've received.


This is from a former UVA student:


Western State Hospital is worth the 45 minute drive. The attendings there are incredible and the patient population is amazing.

There is a lot to do in Charlottesville. There's a great downtown, amazing restaurants, and lots of fun bars (if that's your thing). They get good concerts at the downtown mall and the arena. There are also many vineyards in the area and you can easily spend a weekend visiting them for wine tastings. Lastly, if you are someone who likes to hike, there are beautiful trails everywhere for any fitness level. I like big cities but would move back to Charlottesville in a heartbeat.

I'm not sure where you get less therapy exposure. They do third year all outpatient and there seems to be great supervision.

Lastly, Drs. Dameron and Clayton are amazing for their own reasons and very dedicated to the resident experience

I did feel like residents were happy. I can think of one exception (who has now graduated) who had couples-matched with her husband, who matched into UVA neurosurgery. And she really wasn't outwardly unhappy, more just not as enthusiastic about the place as the other residents. Overall residents definitely seemed happy. UVA grads stay at UVA for psych practically every year (1 my year, 2 the year before, 1 two years before). This is testament to it being a supportive, happy program where grads think they can get great training.
Also, in case it matters to you, UVA has a better reputation than VCU in Virginia. And I can't think of a single UVA grad who did residency at VCU for psych, even though we get quite a few people from the Richmond area who go to UVA.

 

[digitlnoize]

Western State Hospital is worth the 45 minute drive. The attendings there are incredible and the patient population is amazing.

Agreed. I did a rotation there and it was a great experience. The resident working there at the time said, "I wish I could do all my rotations here." For whatever that's worth, lol.

They get good concerts at the downtown mall and the arena.

JPJ Arena hasn't been doing so well with the concerts since that girl was abducted and killed a while ago from the Metallica concert. Since then, it's been mostly Broadway shoes and Riverdance type of things. We do get some ok concerts at the downtown amphitheater, but not the big touring acts. For those, you have to head to Northern Virginia for the Nissan Pavilion (2h) or Va Beach (3h). There is a fairly strong local music scene, and we do get a good number of well known touring indie bands (and some indie legends) come through from time to time. The Paramount Theater also gets "old person" acts like Tony Bennett-type stuff. This place does not suck for arts exposure, is what I'm saying...but, although Metallica and Taylor Swift came here once, don't expect it to happen again.

UVA has a better reputation than VCU in Virginia. And I can't think of a single UVA grad who did residency at VCU for psych, even though we get quite a few people from the Richmond area who go to UVA.

Agreed. UVA >>> VCU in most respects. Reasons to go to VCU would include:

Wanting to work with the urban population, which you won't see much of in Cville.

Wanting to do research with the awesome VCU Twin database, which I believe is the largest, or one of the largest, in the world. One could argue that VCU psych research is stronger than UVA at this point, but they might be pretty equal, as UVA is rising in this area. I'm not a research guy, so not the best person to assess this.

Wanting to do Trauma ER, or some other Adrenaline-Fueled specialty.

Want to live in a bigger city with more nightlife options. C'ville does ok, but having lived in both, Richmond definitely has more (and better) to offer. If you want a fancy restaurant to propose to someone at, Cville wins. If you want to dance the night away with the hotties in a bar, you should go to Richmond.

That's about all I've got.

 

[psychphan]

Nothing good every comes from an association with Metallica.


As far as research, as of 2010 UVA had more NIH research funding than VCU by about 30%. UVA was 32nd on the list, and VCu 41st. Granted, there are many more funding sources than the NIH, but at least it's a number to quantify and compare. I do not know much, really anything, any VCU, but I will say for UVA that lots of their research dollars are for addictions research as thats the chairs area of interest and he is the one pushing for increased research dollars. They also have a cool research department called The Division of Perceptual Studies, that studies near death experiences, deep meditators, and other things involving consciousness and perception. Too spacey for many I'm sure, but I thought it was really cool.