Thoughts on becoming a DO and ability to become a surgeon

[SurgDoc95]

So I'm all applied to DO schools (19 of them) and recently have been wondering whether or not a gap year to try and improve my app would be beneficial in the long run. I'm a 3.59 student with strong ECs and a 502 first time MCAT (124/126/126/126). I often think I'd like to be a pediatrician or a cardiologist, but recently have been thinking I may want to do surgery in the future. My question is, with my stats what are the realistic chances that a year of a post bacc and improving my MCAT by 6-10 points would get me into a mid to upper mid tier MD program? Also, how realistic is it to go into a DO program and become a surgeon? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Just ballparking, mid tier MDs that are out of state student favorable generally have MCAT medians in the 33-35 range, which would be around 514-517 on the new MCAT. That would be a very significant jump from a 502, and you'd also have the disadvantage of having that 502 on record as well as your new score. Additionally, a 3.59, while not a bad GPA, is well under the medians for mid tier MD schools, which runs around 3.8. A year of postbacc with close to straight As will probably boost you up to a 3.65 or so.

For any MD school, particularly if you're from a good state, a 3.65 and a 510 could get you in, but its not a surefire bet.

Now as for becoming a surgeon as a DO, general surgery or OB/GYN are certainly possible, though GS is one of the more competitive specialties (within reason) for most DO students, as the surgical subspecialties are generally out of reach for most students. However, it is certainly within the realm of possibility. It is easier to become a surgeon as an MD, and no one can determine the effect of the merger on DOs going into general surgery, but if I had to speculate, I would say it would make it harder because it is likely that former AOA programs, which is how most DOs went into surgery, would close, diminishing the number of DO friendly spots.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Just ballparking, mid tier MDs that are out of state student favorable generally have MCAT medians in the 33-35 range, which would be around 514-517 on the new MCAT. That would be a very significant jump from a 502, and you'd also have the disadvantage of having that 502 on record as well as your new score. Additionally, a 3.59, while not a bad GPA, is well under the medians for mid tier MD schools, which runs around 3.8. A year of postbacc with close to straight As will probably boost you up to a 3.65 or so.

For any MD school, particularly if you're from a good state, a 3.65 and a 510 could get you in, but its not a surefire bet.

Now as for becoming a surgeon as a DO, general surgery or OB/GYN are certainly possible, though GS is one of the more competitive specialties (within reason) for most DO students, as the surgical subspecialties are generally out of reach for most students. However, it is certainly within the realm of possibility. It is easier to become a surgeon as an MD, and no one can determine the effect of the merger on DOs going into general surgery, but if I had to speculate, I would say it would make it harder because it is likely that former AOA programs, which is how most DOs went into surgery, would close, diminishing the number of DO friendly spots.

I'm anticipating graduating with about a 3.62 after my next two semesters so would a year or a post bacc or a one year basic biomedical sciences masters be enough to see a jump to let's say a 3.7? Just trying to weigh my options at this point. Not at all against going into emergency med or peds but would like to be able to work my way into a surgery spot if I find that's what I'm drawn to.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm anticipating graduating with about a 3.62 after my next two semesters so would a year or a post bacc or a one year basic biomedical sciences masters be enough to see a jump to let's say a 3.7? Just trying to weigh my options at this point. Not at all against going into emergency med or peds but would like to be able to work my way into a surgery spot if I find that's what I'm drawn to.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

You will most likely have the opportunity to become a surgeon as a DO.

3.62 vs 3.7 won't really make a real difference. The bigger problem I'm seeing for MD schools is your MCAT.

 

[SurgDoc95]

You will most likely have the opportunity to become a surgeon as a DO.

3.62 vs 3.7 won't really make a real difference. The bigger problem I'm seeing for MD schools is your MCAT.

Would you agree that with excellent COMPLEX scores or doing very well on the USMLE Step boards I'd have a chance at most residencies are is there still going to be a large bias towards MDs?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[WedgeDawg]

Would you agree that with excellent COMPLEX scores or doing very well on the USMLE Step boards I'd have a chance at most residencies are is there still going to be a large bias towards MDs?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Depends on what you mean by most residencies.

Residencies are generally stratified by competitiveness in terms of specialty, but even more so, particularly within some specialties, in terms of program. Obviously it's a lot harder to match IM at Mass General than it is to match IM at South Dakota County Community Hospital. For the former, you usually have strong students from strong medical schools competing with one another for a spot; for the latter, they might not even fill all their spots.

Unless you turn into a superstar DO student, I would not count on a career in orthopedics, neurosurgery, dermatology, radiation oncology, otolaryngology, urology, ophthalmology, specialized general surgery, or plastic surgery.

So no, having an excellent COMLEX/step 1 score will not necessarily give you a chance at most residencies, if you're taking into account both specialty and program.

 

[VolibearMain]

Carribbean students occasionally become surgeons, no doubt you have a decent chance of becoming a surgeon as a DO.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Thanks guys!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

If you want to be an MD, then withdraw your DO apps and work on your own. I really, really, really do NOT want to see a post from you next January about how you got accepted into a COM and now want to know if it's wise to withdraw and apply MD. I'd much rather your seat go to a person who wants to be a doctor now.

You have a handicap right now of a < avg GPA (median is 3.7, so not too off) and then you'd be a 2x test taker. Why do you magically think that the next MCAT will be better? Most people only go up a point of two, and a lot stay the same or go down.

If you look at match lists for the COMs about 5% of grads go into Gen Surg. It's about 10-15%, for MD schools. So the rate limiting step isn't really your being a DO, it's the mindset people who want to be surgeons.


So yes, you can be a DO surgeon. But get into a med school first, and then worry about your specialty. You're going to change your mind anyway.

And it's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

So I'm all applied to DO schools (19 of them) and recently have been wondering whether or not a gap year to try and improve my app would be beneficial in the long run. I'm a 3.59 student with strong ECs and a 502 first time MCAT (124/126/126/126). I often think I'd like to be a pediatrician or a cardiologist, but recently have been thinking I may want to do surgery in the future. My question is, with my stats what are the realistic chances that a year of a post bacc and improving my MCAT by 6-10 points would get me into a mid to upper mid tier MD program? Also, how realistic is it to go into a DO program and become a surgeon? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[BeachBlondie]

Most people only go up a point of two, and a lot stay the same or go down.

This. I studied my ass off for the second round, was scoring 35s on my practice tests, and only managed to eek out one point above my first score. So I said, "*sigh* 30, it is!.... *grumble-mumble*."

I still think that it's premature to predict what exactly is going to happen post-merger -- there are valid arguments from both sides (plenty of which you can find using the search function). That being said, as medicine continues to become more homogenous in its training (which it already is, by an overwhelming majority), high caliber students are going to have more options than not, regardless of the initials behind their name.

Like you, I hope to do a surgical specialty. So, rather than suppose and worry what might happen, I'm just going to concentrate on being the biggest baller I can, try to smoke the USMLE, and peddle my wares like every other beleaguered and blown-out student.

Get into school. Then freak out about your future.

...oh, and good luck.

P.S.

I have a friends in neurosurg and ortho who are DOs -- has nothing to do with their initials, and everything to do with the fact that they were outstanding applicants and absolutely deserve the spots.

 

[SurgDoc95]

If you want to be an MD, then withdraw your DO apps and work on your own. I really, really, really do NOT want to see a post from you next January about how you got accepted into a COM and now want to know if it's wise to withdraw and apply MD. I'd much rather your seat go to a person who wants to be a doctor now.

You have a handicap right now of a < avg GPA (median is 3.7, so not too off) and then you'd be a 2x test taker. Why do you magically think that the next MCAT will be better? Most people only go up a point of two, and a lot stay the same or go down.

If you look at match lists for the COMs about 5% of grads go into Gen Surg. It's about 10-15%, for MD schools. So the rate limiting step isn't really your being a DO, it's the mindset people who want to be surgeons.


So yes, you can be a DO surgeon. But get into a med school first, and then worry about your specialty. You're going to change your mind anyway.

And it's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

Definitely not considering withdrawing my apps to DO schools. I just wanted to get some information on realistic chances of getting a surgical residency IF I decide that that's what I want to do.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[AlteredScale]

Depends on what you mean by most residencies.

Residencies are generally stratified by competitiveness in terms of specialty, but even more so, particularly within some specialties, in terms of program. Obviously it's a lot harder to match IM at Mass General than it is to match IM at South Dakota County Community Hospital. For the former, you usually have strong students from strong medical schools competing with one another for a spot; for the latter, they might not even fill all their spots.

Unless you turn into a superstar DO student, I would not count on a career in orthopedics, neurosurgery, dermatology, radiation oncology, otolaryngology, urology, ophthalmology, specialized general surgery, or plastic surgery.

So no, having an excellent COMLEX/step 1 score will not necessarily give you a chance at most residencies, if you're taking into account both specialty and program.

Will echo WD and say that if you have any thoughts of surgical sub specialty or pursuit a career in academic medicine (through way of doing residency at a strong university medical center) then you should 100% be focused on applying MD first. The resources to reach these goals are much stronger at MD schools and in this day and age, there is still bias against DOs at many programs simply because..there is.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[SurgDoc95]

Will echo WD and say that if you have any thoughts of surgical sub specialty or pursuit a career in academic medicine (through way of doing residency at a strong university medical center) then you should 100% be focused on applying MD first. The resources to reach these goals are much stronger at MD schools and in this day and age, there is still bias against DOs at many programs simply because..there is.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Okay thank you! I'm not overly interested in academic medicine and not set on surgery by any means. Just wanted some input!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile