Thoughts on becoming a surgeon?

[Justiii]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

 

[Flashfan]

I think you will be frustrated throughout medical school, though you are not alone in feeling that.

 

[masaraksh]

Perhaps you'll find your calling in pathology.

Microscope slides and tissue fragments will keep your rage under control.

 

[allantois]

I think you might enjoy dentistry as you would be able to immediately fix whatever the problem the patient presents with. But in all seriousness, I've heard from a pediatrician that he went into pediatrics because children are more complying and when he tells them to stop eating certain foods, most usually listen.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

This is in no way exclusive to surgery.

It will be something you deal with in all aspects of medicine.

 

[RueTay]

Check out Ortho. We avoid chronic disease and our fixes are usually definitive.

 

[masaraksh]

"Who are you to tell me how I can and cannot live. You're just some stupid yuppie doctor"

seriously gonna be the response of a bunch of people. are you that sheltered?

 

[Jumpstartmy5HT]

I think if you go into medicine thinking you can make people do what's best for their health, you are going to end up cynical and miserable. Noncompliance happens in just about every specialty, and some people like their rough lifestyles not compatible with longevity and superb health.

At the end of the day, doctors can only try their best to educate their patients and try to convince them to do sensible things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mehc012]

Check out Ortho. We avoid chronic disease and our fixes are usually definitive.

Depending on practice...there are an awful lot of elderly patients who come in every x weeks for their joint injections!

 

[AlteredScale]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

I saw this when I shadowed on the endocrinology unit, neurosurg, ED, and gastroentero. At least one case a day that could have been prevented through better lifestyle choices. At the end of the day, you can't judge. No matter how frustrating it is.

I have felt this fear as well. But having gone through my own struggles in weight control I empathize strongly with them. It takes much more than a simple suggestion from a doc. The patient really has to have a good realization of what they are doing and sometimes even trips to the hospital are not those realizations. This is why I think there is a push for primary care, public health, and social medicine in general. This epidemic can only be stopped at the root of the cause.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Depending on practice...there are an awful lot of elderly patients who come in every x weeks for their joint injections!

Also, some ortho patients are overly aggressive with their activities and this can exacerbate joint problems. "So you're telling me not to run after my TKR?"

 

[mehc012]

Also, some ortho patients are overly aggressive with their activities and this can exacerbate joint problems. "So you're telling me not to run after my TKR?"

The ortho doc I tried to scribe for (quit for oh so very many reasons, including the utterly frustrating patient demographics) did mainly worker's comp, disability, and joint injections. Pretty much every single visit was "hi, we were required to meet so you don't lose WC. Are you still disabled? Cool, here are some pain meds, see you in 6wks to do the same thing."
There were a fair number of "Hi, you are 8435942376 years old and your joints hurt. Here is a joint injection which reimburses me very well. Please be sure to come back in a few weeks for a repeat, and maybe I'll do every other joint in your body if this one feels better at that time."

I'm sure that many, many, ortho practices stick with very different procedures, reimbursements, and thus demographics, but...yeah, it's practice-specific, not necessarily specialty-specific!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The ortho doc I tried to scribe for (quit for oh so very many reasons, including the utterly frustrating patient demographics) did mainly worker's comp, disability, and joint injections. Pretty much every single visit was "hi, we were required to meet so you don't lose WC. Are you still disabled? Cool, here are some pain meds, see you in 6wks to do the same thing."
There were a fair number of "Hi, you are 8435942376 years old and your joints hurt. Here is a joint injection which reimburses me very well. Please be sure to come back in a few weeks for a repeat, and maybe I'll do every other joint in your body if this one feels better at that time."

I'm sure that many, many, ortho practices stick with very different procedures, reimbursements, and thus demographics, but...yeah, it's practice-specific, not necessarily specialty-specific!

That doesn't sound like fun😱 Was this an ortho surgeon? Or a non-operative ortho doc? I shadowed an ortho surgeon and it was amazing. It seemed like his patients were more proactive about their health. But I only had a small sample. I actually know a non-operative ortho doc that promotes activities in his patients that are questionable (at least to other doctors I've spoken to). And of course, those patients keep coming back for injections... Seems like a good "business model"...

 

[mehc012]

That doesn't sound like fun😱 Was this an ortho surgeon? Or a non-operative ortho doc? I shadowed an ortho surgeon and it was amazing. It seemed like his patients were more proactive about their health. But I only had a small sample. I actually know a non-operative ortho doc that promotes activities in his patients that are questionable (at least to other doctors I've spoken to). And of course, those patients keep coming back for injections... Seems like a good "business model"...

He did plenty of operations. Joint replacements, carpal tunnel releases, trigger fingers, and the usual ORIFs/ACLs, etc.
We did see the occasional 'healthy person with injury', but they would have, what, 4 visits total (initial, preop, postop, followup), while the chronic patients come back every 2-6wks, so...you accumulate the latter and keep a normal load of the former, I guess.

If I'd stuck around, I apparently would've been allowed into his OR 2d/wk, but it honestly wasn't worth it. I hated every second of most clinic days, because I felt that we were doing NOTHING for the majority of patients other than checking boxes so they could get WC.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

He did plenty of operations. Joint replacements, carpal tunnel releases, trigger fingers, and the usual ORIFs/ACLs, etc.
We did see the occasional 'healthy person with injury', but they would have, what, 4 visits total (initial, preop, postop, followup), while the chronic patients come back every 2-6wks, so...you accumulate the latter and keep a normal load of the former, I guess.

If I'd stuck around, I apparently would've been allowed into his OR 2d/wk, but it honestly wasn't worth it. I hated every second of most clinic days, because I felt that we were doing NOTHING for the majority of patients other than checking boxes so they could get WC.

That sucks. Orthopedics is a great specialty. It's a bummer when your exposure to a specific field is tainted by such practices.

 

[mehc012]

That sucks. Orthopedics is a great specialty. It's a bummer when your exposure to a specific field is tainted by such practices.

Haha, I hope I'm not shallow enough to assume that all practices are identical.
He was a good doc, the position just didn't offer me much - it was too busy to learn anything, and it wasn't the demographic that interested me. Since scribing is worthwhile for the learning, not the salary, I chose not to stick with it. No hard feelings, though!

 

[mrh125]

I think you should explore surgery, but wait until rotations until you make any decisions like that.

Perhaps you'll find your calling in pathology.

Microscope slides and tissue fragments will keep your rage under control.

oh god, that sounds like the dullest job ever.

 

[correctlywrong]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
...

Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

Your attitude is a reason that I specialized in pediatrics. I could not stand working with people who were so judgmental toward their patients. In peds, caregivers are still judgmental, they just aim it at the family instead of the patient, at least until they reach a certain age. "His parents shouldn't have let him do that." Instead of "He did this to himself!"

Look, patients are exposed to misinformation on all sides. They get their health information from TV and friends. I've had a patient tell me that they didn't eat any sugar because of their diabetes, so instead they used honey in their coffee or else drank things that were already sweet, like fruit juices and colas. Like that woman, most people just don't have the education to understand the instructions their doctors give. Especially when they are rushed in and out of office visits that last 10-15 minutes or less, who is teaching them *how* to take care of themselves, and what are the implications of the choices that they make.

This is why I want to do primary care, to try to teach and mentor my patients, so that they will know how to make better choices. I get that they may still make choices that I disagree with, but I am willing to meet them where they are and try to help.

If you really feel like this, maybe you should go into pediatric surgery. Then you can have compassion for your patients.

 

[FalconSlice]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it.

Little dose of reality here: The majority of premeds and med students think this because they are completely ignorant. Here are the reasons why. Note: you might not fall into any of these groups and/or might not be ignorant at all and you might just be playing with the idea, but please listen up here.

1. It is okay to play around with the idea, but don't kid yourself into seriously thinking you are going definitely going to be one of the very few who are actually going to be surgeons. It is okay to try as hard as you can to make it happen. But the bolded quote above seems so immature and inappropriate, especially if coming from a med student. Read on.
2. The truth is no one can make an informed decision on any specialty before your 3rd year. Saying anything otherwise seems (and is, misinformed). Whether it be surgery, OB/GYN, neurology, etc. And actually getting into those residencies depends on Step 1, clerkships, LORs, school name, etc.
3. I can't tell you how many times a 1st or 2nd year student has said "I am going to be a neurosurgeon" then, after Step 1 and clerkships, decide they would rather do Family Medicine instead because their scores weren't up to par or because they really hated it. Picking a specialty is only a choice up to a certain point.

Take home point: Most people in your class will want to be surgeons for the first 2 years of med school: a fraction actually go on to be surgeons. It looks inappropriate and childish to say the bolded quote above because of the reasons I just listed. And, finally, don't give up if you really want to be a surgeon---just gather information first by shadowing a surgeon, do 3/4th years, get a mentor, maybe doing some research to see what the future holds for the specialty, etc. AFTER THIS make a decision. Don't be close-minded to saying that you are going to be a surgeon no matter if xyz.

I just wanted to say some things that have been on my mind, and this thread gave me the opportunity to say it. All this goes for any specialty. Don't get butthurt if that's your thing.

 

[katiemaude]

I'm a little concerned about your lack of compassion for other people and it makes me wonder if a medical school let you in with that kind of attitude.

It is no doubt frustrating when patients are not compliant, but it is also common in medicine. A teeny bit of shadowing would demonstrate that.

 

[dbeast]

If you guys are this jaded as premeds then you're in for a bumpy road in medical school and beyond. Trade in the judgements for some positivity or else you're gonna hate your job.

 

[Medstart108]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

Those people go into Peds. I don't have any problem with people who smoke, drink, eat unhealthy. I'll tell you the way I see it.

The way I see it, is its your life. As a doctor, I will tell you what will keep you healthier for longer and what won't. My job is to keep you informed so you can make your decision. It is your freedom to pursue a more joyous and shorter life or a less joyous but longer life. For some people they really don't mind cutting their life short for their favourite foods or whatever. I tell you the consequences, you live with them.

Now if you come back later with COPD from smoking, NASH from eating too much or whatever, I'll treat you because I feel bad for you. I won't judge you on your past. I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people and this is a key concept in empathy. Some people are just not born in the right circumstances. I believe genes and your place in life make a bigger difference than people like to think. Some people are just exposed to alcohol and drugs from an early age because they were born in the hood. Some people are just predisposed to liking to eat because of their genetic makeup. I tend to give patients the benefit of the doubt it these cases.

Note: I certainly had much less empathy in high school than I do now. I read a study that said teenagers and especially teenage boys have seriously low empathy scores and these jump up during young adulthood so even if you feel that way it may change in the future.

 

[circulus vitios]

People are gonna do what people are gonna do. Why let it bother you?

Peds isn't immune to what you're describing, either. I'm sure you've seen obese children before.

 

[Medstart108]

People are gonna do what people are gonna do. Why let it bother you?

Peds isn't immune to what you're describing, either. I'm sure you've seen obese children before.

Still you can blame the parents or genetics. Kids don't know anything about dieting or keeping their weight healthy they sort of eat what their parents give or eat according to how hungry they feel.

 

[Moose A Moose]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

Cool your jets, Tiger...

These people are going to help you pay off your student loans. Do the best you can for your patient and don't forget we're all human.

 

[correctlywrong]

Blaming the patient (or their parents!) is something we do to make ourselves feel better. We see someone in misery. It is ego-defensive to declare that person to be at fault for their own problem. They should have made better choices, darn it, and then we wouldn't have to feel sympathy/feel helpless to save them.

It is the worst kind of paternalism. I have met MANY surgeons that indulge in it, so if you do go that route, OP, you won't be alone. But please, think hard about the assumptions you are making about people and your role as their doctor. Not just for their sake, but for yours.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Blaming the patient (or their parents!) is something we do to make ourselves feel better. We see someone in misery. It is ego-defensive to declare that person to be at fault for their own problem. They should have made better choices, darn it, and then we wouldn't have to feel sympathy/feel helpless to save them.

It is the worst kind of paternalism. I have met MANY surgeons that indulge in it, so if you do go that route, OP, you won't be alone. But please, think hard about the assumptions you are making about people and your role as their doctor. Not just for their sake, but for yours.

Are you suggesting patients can't be at fault for their condition?

 

[Redpancreas]

I'm a little concerned about your lack of compassion for other people and it makes me wonder if a medical school let you in with that kind of attitude.

This is just rude and unnecessary. Medical school admissions is not an all-knowing entity. OP is asking a genuine question and probably is asking the opinion of those who have experience in the field. Not idealistic, just-accepted students.

 

[Law2Doc]

I like the thought of surgery and think I would be good at it. But what would annoy me would be the people who didn't take care of themselves and put themselves in such a bad state. I know they are good people and as adults or senior citizens have had many struggles in life.
But what I wouldn't be able to take would be, for example, If a senior citizen had stents put in and was told to eat healthier but they went right back home and started to eat the same amounts of butter and crap and the next year or two they come in for open heart surgery, if they are even alive.
I mean I'd have to save someone who doesn't even care about their health. I just think it's selfish, you know how scared the family members are when their loved one is getting just stents put in because they had a heart attack. But to continue to do it to yourself and clog your arteries to where you will eventually need open heart surgery makes me mad.
It's like my grandma. She's lived a out-there kind of life. She had a heart attack because her diet is nothing but butter. She has so many stents now it's not even funny. She doesn't feel lucky to be alive and wants to be healthier. She just sees it like it was an ACCIDENT. Not that what she is doing is killing herself. It makes me soo frustrated. Although, what would probably make me more frustrated if I was a family practitioner warning her for 50 years not to eat that way and she never listened. Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

Your issues with noncompliant patients will be issues for you in every field. Including peds -- which includes teens, who as a group are among the most noncompliant patients out there -- try to tell a teen not to drink, smoke, do drugs, abstain from unprotected sex, and see how many listen -- that is the age group where they still think they are invincible. Honestly if patient noncompliance bothers you that much medicine might not be the right field. The days when what the doctor said was gospel and patients listened ended some time ago. Now patients are going to ignore what you tell them whenever they find an easier or more appealing regimen on the Internet. your job as doctor is to provide good information. Whether they listen can't be your issue because in no specialty (other than path) is some percentage of your patients not going to ignore you.

 

[Law2Doc]

Blaming the patient (or their parents!) is something we do to make ourselves feel better. We see someone in misery. It is ego-defensive to declare that person to be at fault for their own problem. They should have made better choices, darn it, and then we wouldn't have to feel sympathy/feel helpless to save them.

It is the worst kind of paternalism. I have met MANY surgeons that indulge in it, so if you do go that route, OP, you won't be alone. But please, think hard about the assumptions you are making about people and your role as their doctor. Not just for their sake, but for yours.

I think there's a big difference in paternalism and noncompliance with accepted medical practices. If you are a doctor and you tell a patient to eg stop smoking, you are doing your job. You went through a lot of schooling and training for the privilege of doling out advice to the people that hire you for that purpose. People come to the doctor precisely because you have the expertise they lack. They are paying you to tell them "you must stop doing that" or "take your meds". That doesn't mean they will listen and that doesn't mean the doctor ought not be annoyed or pity them. If ten years later a patient is STILL smoking through a stoma in his neck after you have had to do a radical neck dissection for smoking related cancer, It's not about making yourself feel better -- the patient didn't listen, and still isn't listening. Or the diabetic patient who just had his foot amputated and is still chugging a pepsi when he comes to see you. It kind of is their fault. Following your advice may be hard and may require shaking an addiction, but it's really a step they HAVE to take (it's not optional if they want to stay on this planet) and is one that countless others even without the health scares are generally able to make if they really want it. I've seen doctors "divorce" patients over things like this, and, while extreme and not something I'm advocating, it's pretty understandable. There are patients in every specialty that are curable but that you can do nothing for because they have no interest in listening and really don't respect the training and knowledge that comes with the white coat. It's frustrating, but at some level it's fine -- it's Darwinism at it's finest.

 

[katiemaude]

This is just rude and unnecessary. Medical school admissions is not an all-knowing entity. OP is asking a genuine question and probably is asking the opinion of those who have experience in the field. Not idealistic, just-accepted students.

First of all, OP is asking on a pre-med forum. And from one "idealistic just-accepted student to another," I think disdain for patients is an unfortunate character trait in an accepted medical student, let alone a physician. He or she also asked for opinions on that particular attitude. Given the OP's bluntness, I'm thinking he or she can handle an efficient sentence stating one's opinion without use of numerous emoticons to smooth it over. 🙂😵

For what it's worth, I am not very idealistic and I doubt anyone who has worked with patients stays that way for long. I have worked in a hospital for a few years, directly with patients and directly with surgeons. I am probably more than a decade older than most applicants, so I've had life kick me around a few times. My idealism is thoroughly shattered. But my humanity is not.

To the OP: Your humanity might not be there yet, but it can get there if you work on having compassion for others. It would benefit your future colleagues if you are already accepted.

I have worked with several physicians and surgeons who fail to take humanity into account, and it's painful to watch. They blow up in the OR, they say terrible things to patients who are dying, and they are difficult to work with as colleagues as well. It's something that medical schools (at least the one connected to my hospital and two others I interviewed at) have openly stated that they are trying to weed out in future physicians. Therefore, if you are still a pre-med, it's something to watch for in your interview answers and personal statement.

If medical school is your goal, you would be better served by getting more experience with patients, volunteering with people who are less fortunate than yourself, and reevaluating your beliefs as you go along. With your current attitude, medicine is going to be a nightmare for you - you will hate it. It's worth it to try to work on it.

 

[Justiii]

Thank you for so many replies ^_^ Really helpful.

 

[Redpancreas]

First of all, OP is asking on a pre-med forum. And from one "idealistic just-accepted student to another," I think disdain for patients is an unfortunate character trait in an accepted medical student, let alone a physician. He or she also asked for opinions on that particular attitude. Given the OP's bluntness, I'm thinking he or she can handle an efficient sentence stating one's opinion without use of numerous emoticons to smooth it over. 🙂😵

For what it's worth, I am not very idealistic and I doubt anyone who has worked with patients stays that way for long. I have worked in a hospital for a few years, directly with patients and directly with surgeons. I am probably more than a decade older than most applicants, so I've had life kick me around a few times. My idealism is thoroughly shattered. But my humanity is not.

To the OP: Your humanity might not be there yet, but it can get there if you work on having compassion for others. It would benefit your future colleagues if you are already accepted.

I have worked with several physicians and surgeons who fail to take humanity into account, and it's painful to watch. They blow up in the OR, they say terrible things to patients who are dying, and they are difficult to work with as colleagues as well. It's something that medical schools (at least the one connected to my hospital and two others I interviewed at) have openly stated that they are trying to weed out in future physicians. Therefore, if you are still a pre-med, it's something to watch for in your interview answers and personal statement.

If medical school is your goal, you would be better served by getting more experience with patients, volunteering with people who are less fortunate than yourself, and reevaluating your beliefs as you go along. With your current attitude, medicine is going to be a nightmare for you - you will hate it. It's worth it to try to work on it.

Well, it's just that OP is being honest and you go out and saying "lack of compassion" and go about wondering why medical schools let him in the first place is not only presumptuous, but oversimplifies the issue. I apologize if what I said earlier was brusque. I'm just tired of pre-meds I discuss health policy with who seem to hold the belief that all the problems in healthcare would be fixed if we simply make the medical admissions process better and hire more ethical doctors. How can you even select for that anyways? I've seen tons of doctors I've shadowed (who I believe delivered successful care-can't be positive though) get irritated with their patients when they were sitting behind their desks with me during a break. That being said, I do agree with the sentiment that "OP you're just a pre-med, wait till you see..."Also, genuine credit to you @katiemaude on your personal background there, that took some resilience. How do you know OP's "HUMANITY might not be there yet" though? . I think that (again) is kind of presumptuous (a quality I think is one of the most dangerous among physicians). Should I say start "wondering if a medical school let you in" with that kind of quality?

 

[masaraksh]

People are gonna do what people are gonna do. Why let it bother you?

Peds isn't immune to what you're describing, either. I'm sure you've seen obese children before.

 

[masaraksh]

Children grow up in different environments. Their medical conditions are often not their fault.

 

[OrgasmicChemistry]

Maybe pediatrics is best, they haven't lived long enough to destroy themselves so it's all more horrible. But children listen and Parents listen more and take more initiative when it comes to their children. Is this a bad mentality to have? Does anyone agree or disagree?

If you take the attitude you described earlier, I think Peds would be a more difficult/frustrating experience for you. I say this bc some parents bring in their asthmatic kid for breathing problems, admit to both smoking in their house, then make a point to note that they refuse to have their child vaccinated bc they "don't believe in that stuff" (note: this is an actual first-hand account). Then you have to deal with adults making poor decisions about the health not only of themselves but of their child as well.

Another example: a lot of pple who need knee replacements are obese and claim they need the new knee in order to lose weight, and they seem to honestly believe it. One ortho doc I shadowed who had been practicing for ~35 years tells them when they say this "in my experience, I've had 3 patients who have actually lost weight after a TKR. The vast majority gain weight, and some stay about the same. You'll be much more mobile and be able to be more active after the procedure, if you choose to be. I truly want you to be the fourth, and losing weight will help your health a lot, but in my experience it doesn't happen often." In short they seem to have this preconceived notion that weight will just fall off post-op. Unfortunately, their increased activity level usually means being able to get up and go to the kitchen more often. Habits are hard to break.

Anything you do in medicine you will face the same frustrations that you described. You should learn to see the cup half-full moreso than half-empty. Why not focus on the ways in which you are able to help patients?

 

[el_duderino]

OP: rack up 500 hours volunteering in a capacity that has you interacting with very disadvantaged or struggling people. Homeless shelters, hospice, etc.

You need a big dose of reality and humanity.

If your attitude doesn't take a 180 as a result of this experience, please do not go into clinical medicine.

 

[ShinyDome19]

Holly crap...there are a bunch of threads today that are just getting under my skin....

1) For all these Medical Student (Accepted) - STFU...go on a vacation and quit with this "your going to be a horrible doctor" BS. You dont know jack...Everything you believe in will change when you get hit in the face with the shi* storm of medical school which will destroy all your self-righteous beliefs of what a physician is supposed to be within a few weeks.

OP: rack up 500 hours volunteering in a capacity that has you interacting with very disadvantaged or struggling people. Homeless shelters, hospice, etc.

You need a big dose of reality and humanity.

If your attitude doesn't take a 180 as a result of this experience, please do not go into clinical medicine.

Sorry to call you out on this man, I know I am in a bad mood right now...but dude, your full of it. I have worked with the poorest of the poor...in the poorest state of the US. The average of our poorest person has a Cell phone, smokes a pack a day and drinks regularly and has multiple children. For some of them the reasons they are in those situations is just very poor education and bad choices they made in life and many have priorities in life which are very poorly thought out. They complain that they cannot afford their 4$ medication and expect you to get it for them for free...but they are willing to scrounge up money for their cigarettes/cell phone/whiskey??? The government has many programs for these people, which we all pay for out of our pockets...if these people arnt lazy and go out and sign up for these things.

Its the people you see in the ER with chronic medical problems and cannot afford to take time off work and that have multiple jobs and have children. For some reason they dont qualify for the free clinics/medication assistance/food stamps etc and are left out to dry, and as a physician and medical student will have you questioning the world we live in.

2) Premeds/OP - its cool to want to become a surgeon or what ever. Just know that your motivations and expectations of medicine and different specialties are very naive and WILL change as you go along the pre-med and medical school process. If your motivated enough to jump through all the hoops/dissapointments etc that come with the pre-med/application process and manage to get in, it doesnt matter what your motivations are.

I originally wanted to be a surgeon...then I stepped foot in the OR and hated every second of it. Then thought about Peds-Heme/Onc because I love the science behind oncology...but it really started to hit home after I had a kid myself. I went into a few Family and Hospital rotations and really hated the idea of treated patients that "couldnt take care of themselves"....then one day at a VA, I had a vietnam vet that had horrible COPD and I gave him the usual "you need to quit smoking and drinking" spiel...he turned to me and said, "Ill be honest with you doc, thats not gonna happen. I look forward to sitting back on my porch with a beer and smoking a cigarette with my lady friend every day"...and it just hit me. If I had been through what this guy had been through, and the most favorite part of my day was kick'n back with a beer and a smoke and a "lady friend"...then who the hell am I to try and take that away from him...My job becomes helping him if/when he wants to change, but otherwise keeping him alive long enough so that he can continue to do what he loves for as long as his body can stand. It doesnt take much to change your outlook on things.

 

[el_duderino]

So, shiny dome.... would you say you resent your patients for not taking care of themselves? Does it make you "mad" that you have to save people who ruin their health?

The reason I suggested more exposure to poor and sick people to the OP is that I hope it would cure them of their horrific outlook. I used to think more or less along those lines, but the more interaction I have with this kind of person the more I understand them and the more empathy I have. I've learned over and over that it's a mistake to judge people so harshly.

I might be a premed but I'll say that if I ever, EVER have the attitude of the OP I will take it as a sign that it's time to hang up the stethoscope and find another profession.

 

[ShinyDome19]

So, shiny dome.... would you say you resent your patients for not taking care of themselves? Does it make you "mad" that you have to save people who ruin their health?

The reason I suggested more exposure to poor and sick people to the OP is that I hope it would cure them of their horrific outlook. I used to think more or less along those lines, but the more interaction I have with this kind of person the more I understand them and the more empathy I have. I've learned over and over that it's a mistake to judge people so harshly.

I might be a premed but I'll say that if I ever, EVER have the attitude of the OP I will take it as a sign that it's time to hang up the stethoscope and find another profession.

Heck yeah, there are tons of times when I have resented my patients and their decisions. Dude, I'm human and a lot of patients are selfish/arrogant/dinguses and it can piss me off. Does it change how I treat those patient...subconsciously probably...but I still do my job. I think the OP has a very realistic outlook for a pre-med still looking at medicine from the outside. And despite that outlook is still motivated to pursue it - good for him/her. Your going to have patients that push you to your every limit and continue to demand more of you, and when you ask them to do their part for their own health, such as cut back on the cheeseburgers, they say its just too much...its frustrating as hell and anyone who denies that is just full of it. This happens regardless of whether or not they are poor or not or educated or not. Hell, I know I have been told by my allergist to get rid of my dogs or else my asthma is going to keep flaring up and getting worse...guess what...my mangy-ass German Shepard is sitting right next to me right now...and guess what, I am also on prednisone right now. Does it piss off my allergist...probably...does he still treat me...sure does...does he think I am an idiot...yup, hes told me.

Reality is, people get sick and die every day, Good people/bad people/Sweet kids/A**hole teenagers...and a lot of times it happens because of their life decisions that they made or their family made for them. The whole empathy thing is great and it is something you learn as you go along in life; should it be a necessity for medical school - nope. Is it a necessity as a physician..maybe/depends. But, just because your a physician doesn't mean you arn't human any more and that you are above all that judging people crap. If anything, we are trained to judge people...What makes the difference is that the physician uses their judging of people on guiding how they are going to medically treat those people. This is largely where specialty choice comes in, what type of idiocy in your patients do you enjoy and what type just ruins your day; the world needs pathologists too (though not right now, the market if flooded). Telling someone to find another profession because they don't think like you and your still looking at medicine from the outside, is BS. Physicians of every walk of life and who have different motivations are needed in medicine and they will find their niche as they go through. I went into my specialty because, in the hospital setting, my personality/motivations etc are a good match up for the patient population I see and because of that, I enjoy it. I don't have to put on a fake impression that I understand what they are going through...and It doesn't matter what happened or what decisions they made or even how much I like them...They are sick, and I enjoy figuring out why and get to fix it. As harsh as it sounds, patients are just problems for me to fix..that is all; if they want to be my friend on the side while they are my patient, GREAT! Would I make a good OB-Doc, hell no, I don't have the desire to sit there and cry with a patient who lost her baby, etc...does that make me a bad physician...No, just one that doesn't fit that field.

 

[tennisguitar]

This is one of the most important TedTalks you should watch before beginning medical school--it may really affect your mindset.

 

[thruthewire]

Holly crap...there are a bunch of threads today that are just getting under my skin....

1) For all these Medical Student (Accepted) - STFU...go on a vacation and quit with this "your going to be a horrible doctor" BS. You dont know jack...Everything you believe in will change when you get hit in the face with the shi* storm of medical school which will destroy all your self-righteous beliefs of what a physician is supposed to be within a few weeks.



Sorry to call you out on this man, I know I am in a bad mood right now...but dude, your full of it. I have worked with the poorest of the poor...in the poorest state of the US. The average of our poorest person has a Cell phone, smokes a pack a day and drinks regularly and has multiple children. For some of them the reasons they are in those situations is just very poor education and bad choices they made in life and many have priorities in life which are very poorly thought out. They complain that they cannot afford their 4$ medication and expect you to get it for them for free...but they are willing to scrounge up money for their cigarettes/cell phone/whiskey??? The government has many programs for these people, which we all pay for out of our pockets...if these people arnt lazy and go out and sign up for these things.

Its the people you see in the ER with chronic medical problems and cannot afford to take time off work and that have multiple jobs and have children. For some reason they dont qualify for the free clinics/medication assistance/food stamps etc and are left out to dry, and as a physician and medical student will have you questioning the world we live in.

2) Premeds/OP - its cool to want to become a surgeon or what ever. Just know that your motivations and expectations of medicine and different specialties are very naive and WILL change as you go along the pre-med and medical school process. If your motivated enough to jump through all the hoops/dissapointments etc that come with the pre-med/application process and manage to get in, it doesnt matter what your motivations are.

I originally wanted to be a surgeon...then I stepped foot in the OR and hated every second of it. Then thought about Peds-Heme/Onc because I love the science behind oncology...but it really started to hit home after I had a kid myself. I went into a few Family and Hospital rotations and really hated the idea of treated patients that "couldnt take care of themselves"....then one day at a VA, I had a vietnam vet that had horrible COPD and I gave him the usual "you need to quit smoking and drinking" spiel...he turned to me and said, "Ill be honest with you doc, thats not gonna happen. I look forward to sitting back on my porch with a beer and smoking a cigarette with my lady friend every day"...and it just hit me. If I had been through what this guy had been through, and the most favorite part of my day was kick'n back with a beer and a smoke and a "lady friend"...then who the hell am I to try and take that away from him...My job becomes helping him if/when he wants to change, but otherwise keeping him alive long enough so that he can continue to do what he loves for as long as his body can stand. It doesnt take much to change your outlook on things.

wow, what a great post. 👍

 

[katiemaude]

Should I say start "wondering if a medical school let you in" with that kind of quality?

I guess you could ask that, but this is not my thread and I wasn't asking for advice. OP was specifically asking how having that type of reaction to non-compliant patients could impact him/her as a physician. Understanding his/her reaction to this type of behavior is a huge thing, if it's something he or she wants to change.... key word, IF. Not saying the OP needs to do anything.

I think some people become more sympathetic/empathetic as they age -sometimes time helps with that; sometimes it is your personal experience. It is also totally human to be annoyed at people who don't listen or who take care of themselves. I did not mean to imply it's not a normal reaction. How you act toward the patient, however, matters a lot. Hence why you might see doctors blowing off steam in private during your shadow experiences but never in front of the patient. (I hope.)

IMHO, personality should play a part in admissions because truly jerky doctors are the pits - and to pre-empt you, I'm not implying that the OP is a jerk. It is stomach-turning to hear what I've head a couple surgeons say about their patients behind their backs, as well as how they treat their PAs (who never last long) and to the scrub techs and nurses assisting them (who dread their times in the block schedule). Applicants who demonstrate negative personality traits get screened out all the time. I would hope, again this is me... JUST HOPING ... that at some point more medical schools will catch on and keep people with true personality disorders away from patient care. Then again, I am just one accepted med student and not representative of the profession. You can let all the naricissist and self-righteous people you want in when you are in charge (not that the OP is one ... I'M NOT SAYING THAT. PLEASE DON'T BE OFFENDED). It's just my personal opinion.

Just trying to lighten things up because @Backtothebasics8, it reads like you are taking this thread rather personally. I was just trying to respond to one person's direct question. Not trying to change admission policies. Maybe I will though when I take over the world bwahahaha

 

[katiemaude]

@ShinyDome19, are you in an Emergency Medicine residency? I gathered that from your post but I wanted to ask to make sure. Because I know a few EM residents who share similar views. Originally EM really interested me but the more I talk to residents/attendings in it, the more convinced I get that it's a fast track to disillusionment. I volunteered in the ED for a couple years and I picked up on a pervasive cynicism about pain med seekers, frequent fliers with vague complaints about abdominal pain who had no trouble downing a free sandwich while watching cable TV, people with no insurance/on public assistance who have the latest gadgets, etc. I would imagine that seeing it over and over again would be trying.

I see a similar cynicism among the anesthesiologists and CRNAs I know about patients who are smokers. It makes their jobs more difficult and they feel it is a senseless habit. They tend to be less angry about it though. More like mildly annoyed.