Thoughts on Black Lives Matter from a Health Expert

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Not related to the article, but just wanna say that NEJM has some pretty cool stuff. I especially like their clinical decisions section. I have no idea what they're talking about when they talk the details of an illness, but it's still a pretty nice read.
 
Racism is deplorable. Acting like fighting racism is the cure for things that aren't caused by racism is bad too.
 
That in depth analysis so eloquently and totally refutes the premise of the posted article. Remarkable.

It pretty much does. I don't think any sane person can claim that racism isn't still around these days, but to try to pin the particular issues discussed in the article as being a product of racism is just lazy.
 
It pretty much does. I don't think any sane person can claim that racism isn't still around these days, but to try to pin the particular issues discussed in the article as being a product of racism is just lazy.

Kay.

Feel free to submit a comment via the NEJM. I'm sure those lazy editors would love to publish your thoughts and the lazy author would love to read it.

Also, strawman-ish ad hominems are fun 🙂

Also, also, I'm sure Dr. Paul Farmer would love an audience with you so you can set him straight about how misaligned his worldview is with reality.

I'm going to follow my own advice and shut up now.
 
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It's a shame that so many medical students (extending all the way up the medical professional ladder to physicians even) feel as though these opinions are un-actionable, and those that do try to make a case for them are just lazy. It's a shame that though you've reached such an elite level of literacy, you still miss the larger picture on how our world operates- namely, for african americans, how a 400 year legacy of servitude and bondage institutionalized in the framework of this country is apparently irrelevant to you.
 
It is incredibly irrelevant to me. That article had as much substance as those ridiculous "die-ins". If you don't like something, work to change it. Also the argument about blacks making up 13% of the population but a smaller percentage of physicians is silly. Since when do we assign careers based on demographical distributions?
 
I'm black, and I also agree with nick and psai. Lots of philosophical talking, no real actionable info
 
I've seen a lot of these discussions on SDN already and the turn they can take. So, in an attempt to not turn this post into the train wrecks I've seen before and actually advance dialogue around this issue, give me an example of an actionable info? This is serious btw, not trying to troll or sound sarcastic.
 
I've seen a lot of these discussions on SDN already and the turn they can take. So, in an attempt to not turn this post into the train wrecks I've seen before and actually advance dialogue around this issue, give me an example of an actionable info? This is serious btw, not trying to troll or sound sarcastic.

Something that can actually meaningfully improve the lives of the people the author of the OP and articles like it so emotionally cry about having an interest in. The author offered absolutely zero in the way of improving the things she discussed. Thus, it is little more than political pandering, and the only reason anyone would accept it as some incredible article is because 1) it's in NEJM and 2) it validates notions that you already have.
 
It's a shame that so many medical students (extending all the way up the medical professional ladder to physicians even) feel as though these opinions are un-actionable, and those that do try to make a case for them are just lazy. It's a shame that though you've reached such an elite level of literacy, you still miss the larger picture on how our world operates- namely, for african americans, how a 400 year legacy of servitude and bondage institutionalized in the framework of this country is apparently irrelevant to you.
Actionable info, to expand on nick's point, would be first citing an actual medical problem that is caused by racism (there isn't one) and then providing a way that physicians can intervene in regard to said problem (the one that doesn't exist).

And yes is IS lazy to try and connect racism to increased rates of cardiovascular dz in AA males. That's actually what she did and it's honestly sad for someone of her credentials.
 
TLDR: We need to cry more about issues. Physicians should cry more.


:arghh:


As for solutions, I want better incentives for new attendings to work in underserved areas rather than pushing all the workload to URMs. Tax breaks, better loan repayment, better facilities, etc.
 
Something that can actually meaningfully improve the lives of the people the author of the OP and articles like it so emotionally cry about having an interest in. The author offered absolutely zero in the way of improving the things she discussed. Thus, it is little more than political pandering, and the only reason anyone would accept it as some incredible article is because 1) it's in NEJM and 2) it validates notions that you already have.

A few points regarding your post.
1. You still haven't given me an example. Case in point, as well- that these issues are extremely difficult to solve. A simple inaccessibility to proper healthcare is as deeply entrenched in our healthcare system as it is in our political system.
2. Please don't question the intentions behind the author by disparaging their emotions or interests. Are you saying that their experiences are not valid, but yours are? If so, write an article about why these opinions should not be making it into NEJM or into any medical or scientific field.
3. What exactly are they pandering too? What political interests could the author possibly have. Yes, the author is the health commissioner of NY, but she's not the first one to have come out about this issue. What political pandering am i, a soon to be medical student, possibly doing by emphasizing the importance of such viewpoints in the medical field?

Actionable info, to expand on nick's point, would be first citing an actual medical problem that is caused by racism (there isn't one) and then providing a way that physicians can intervene in regard to said problem (the one that doesn't exist).

And yes is IS lazy to try and connect racism to increased rates of cardiovascular dz in AA males. That's actually what she did and it's honestly sad for someone of her credentials.

And cigarettes don't cause cancer. Correlation is not causation, I'm sure you learned that somewhere along your path to becoming a medical student. The author draws these connection, which even the act of doing you find toxic, because your average medical professional either doesn't know or doesn't care (out of ignorance), as I've seen plenty of times on SDN forums.

To your point, however, no, racism does not inherently create any medical pathologies in one's body, but that's not what the article is saying is it? And that's not what I'm saying either. What I'm saying is that batting your eyes to the socioeconomic and political factors that govern your patients' day to day interaction with health and medicine is sheer ignorance. There is a reason why latinos, african americans, and native americans are disproportionately represented with higher incidences in certain pathologies. If you live in south central LA, are african american, and spend money on fast food because it's cheaper than healthier options, then of course you're going to have a greater risk factor for cardivascular illnesses. What advice are you going to give your patients? Eat healthy? Assuming that your patient is even educated (a huge assumption and a discussion for another time), your patient probably already knows to eat healthy. So as a medical practitioner, what are you going to do?
 
I'm glad that the AAMC and medical schools are finally teaching future doctors about racial and socioeconomic disparities and social norms. To me, being cruel or less helpful to disadvantaged people has always seemed like a weak move.

Agreed, I just hope @Holmwood doesn't think that to get a perfect score on that new section of the MCAT he'll have to cry his way through it
 
A few points regarding your post.
1. You still haven't given me an example. Case in point, as well- that these issues are extremely difficult to solve. A simple inaccessibility to proper healthcare is as deeply entrenched in our healthcare system as it is in our political system.
2. Please don't question the intentions behind the author by disparaging their emotions or interests. Are you saying that their experiences are not valid, but yours are? If so, write an article about why these opinions should not be making it into NEJM or into any medical or scientific field.
3. What exactly are they pandering too? What political interests could the author possibly have. Yes, the author is the health commissioner of NY, but she's not the first one to have come out about this issue. What political pandering am i, a soon to be medical student, possibly doing by emphasizing the importance of such viewpoints in the medical field?



And cigarettes don't cause cancer. Correlation is not causation, I'm sure you learned that somewhere along your path to becoming a medical student. The author draws these connection, which even the act of doing you find toxic, because your average medical professional either doesn't know or doesn't care (out of ignorance), as I've seen plenty of times on SDN forums.

To your point, however, no, racism does not inherently create any medical pathologies in one's body, but that's not what the article is saying is it? And that's not what I'm saying either. What I'm saying is that batting your eyes to the socioeconomic and political factors that govern your patients' day to day interaction with health and medicine is sheer ignorance. There is a reason why latinos, african americans, and native americans are disproportionately represented with higher incidences in certain pathologies. If you live in south central LA, are african american, and spend money on fast food because it's cheaper than healthier options, then of course you're going to have a greater risk factor for cardivascular illnesses. What advice are you going to give your patients? Eat healthy? Assuming that your patient is even educated (a huge assumption and a discussion for another time), your patient probably already knows to eat healthy. So as a medical practitioner, what are you going to do?

Wtf...
 
To your point, however, no, racism does not inherently create any medical pathologies in one's body, but that's not what the article is saying is it? And that's not what I'm saying either. What I'm saying is that batting your eyes to the socioeconomic and political factors that govern your patients' day to day interaction with health and medicine is sheer ignorance. There is a reason why latinos, african americans, and native americans are disproportionately represented with higher incidences in certain pathologies. If you live in south central LA, are african american, and spend money on fast food because it's cheaper than healthier options, then of course you're going to have a greater risk factor for cardivascular illnesses. What advice are you going to give your patients? Eat healthy? Assuming that your patient is even educated (a huge assumption and a discussion for another time), your patient probably already knows to eat healthy. So as a medical practitioner, what are you going to do?

"Should health professionals be accountable... for fighting the racism — both institutional and interpersonal — that contributes to poor health in the first place?" So yes, that is pretty much what the article is saying. There is a big difference between saying low socioeconomic status often leads to poor health (it doesn't matter what race you are, being poor and thus spending money on fast food is a huge cardiovascular risk factor) and saying that racism is to blame for poor health (which the author IS saying: "By studying ways in which racial inequality...harms health"). Racism absolutely still exists, and that is awful. But to blame poor health outcomes on racism like the author clearly does? That is a lazy, needlessly divisive, incorrect, and sensationalist argument to attempt.
 
A few points regarding your post.
1. You still haven't given me an example. Case in point, as well- that these issues are extremely difficult to solve. A simple inaccessibility to proper healthcare is as deeply entrenched in our healthcare system as it is in our political system.
2. Please don't question the intentions behind the author by disparaging their emotions or interests. Are you saying that their experiences are not valid, but yours are? If so, write an article about why these opinions should not be making it into NEJM or into any medical or scientific field.
3. What exactly are they pandering too? What political interests could the author possibly have. Yes, the author is the health commissioner of NY, but she's not the first one to have come out about this issue. What political pandering am i, a soon to be medical student, possibly doing by emphasizing the importance of such viewpoints in the medical field?



And cigarettes don't cause cancer. Correlation is not causation, I'm sure you learned that somewhere along your path to becoming a medical student. The author draws these connection, which even the act of doing you find toxic, because your average medical professional either doesn't know or doesn't care (out of ignorance), as I've seen plenty of times on SDN forums.

To your point, however, no, racism does not inherently create any medical pathologies in one's body, but that's not what the article is saying is it? And that's not what I'm saying either. What I'm saying is that batting your eyes to the socioeconomic and political factors that govern your patients' day to day interaction with health and medicine is sheer ignorance. There is a reason why latinos, african americans, and native americans are disproportionately represented with higher incidences in certain pathologies. If you live in south central LA, are african american, and spend money on fast food because it's cheaper than healthier options, then of course you're going to have a greater risk factor for cardivascular illnesses. What advice are you going to give your patients? Eat healthy? Assuming that your patient is even educated (a huge assumption and a discussion for another time), your patient probably already knows to eat healthy. So as a medical practitioner, what are you going to do?

1) Rather than complaining about healthcare disparities and saying "MORE AWARENESS," how about she offer some kind of solution for addressing those disparities in a real, pragmatic way? Apply similar logic to every point brought up in the article.

2) No, I'm not saying that at all. The difference is I'm not arrogant enough to submit an article to NEJM lambasting the medical profession for its moral failures without actually offering any ways to attempt to solve the problem. I would never submit an article to NEJM on this topic because I don't have any solutions and have nothing to contribute to the discussion - much like the author of the article.

3) The pandering is the idea that we need to do ever more - we need to never stop - at trying to help these poor lost souls who just can't seem to take care of themselves. That is the pretext between the lines, whether you're aware of that argument or not.

As far as your point in your final paragraph, what do you propose doing? I'm of the mindset that at some point people need to make an effort to take an interest in their own health. Sometimes that requires sacrifices. For example, it's easy for ANYONE - rich, poor, white, black, yellow, brown - to sit around the house, pop Pringles into your mouth, and watch TV all day. It takes an inherent interest in your own health to make lifestyle changes to benefit your health that are intrinsically "unpleasant." You pose an interesting question in your last sentence yet don't provide an answer. What are you going to do? Before setting up a strawman, don't interpret that as meaning that I don't want to provide any kind of resources or don't think that we should do anything to attempt to help those people. The ultimate question, though, is what those things should be.

My argument is that physicians do not bear the responsibility for all aspects of a person's life. Should we work to improve the lives of our patients? Absolutely. Am I going to walk with them to make sure they buy this but not that? If I care about my patients' health, does that mean I must by necessity support political goals like expanding welfare or whatever "solution" is proposed to solve these problems? Where does it end? I guess that's what I don't understand about this line of argument. No doubt that are disparities in the healthcare system. But what are we actually going to do to attempt to solve those issues? That's the million dollar question to which no one seems to have a viable response short of continuing to push out messages of shame, failure, and inequity.

I'll give you an example from a patient I saw at a free clinic just last weekend. This was an older guy who had bilateral "leg weakness" for three years. Physical exam was essentially normal with the exception of some findings suggestive of arthritis. There was absolutely nothing we could do for this guy given our essentially non-existent resources. We offered to give him a referral to the county hospital, where he can receive at no charge all of the diagnostic testing and therapeutic intervention that could actually solve his problem. His response? He kept demanding some kind of magic pill that would fix his problems and make him feel normal again. He refused to go to the county hospital because that would require getting on a bus, and he didn't have a bus pass. This encounter took ~30 minutes - time that could've been much better spent seeing a patient that actually had a complaint we could address and who would take advantage of a referral we might offer him/her if indicated. Interestingly, he came to the clinic during the previous week and was told the exact same thing and given a referral. I'll let you guess whether or not he took advantage of that.

So what are we supposed to do for this guy? Just how far backward are we supposed to bend to make it possible for him to go receive free medical care? This is my point. Are all people like this guy? Of course not. But the point is the same: at some point, you have to make sacrifices. There aren't always easy fixes.
 
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"Should health professionals be accountable... for fighting the racism — both institutional and interpersonal — that contributes to poor health in the first place?" So yes, that is pretty much what the article is saying. There is a big difference between saying low socioeconomic status often leads to poor health (it doesn't matter what race you are, being poor and thus spending money on fast food is a huge cardiovascular risk factor) and saying that racism is to blame for poor health (which the author IS saying: "By studying ways in which racial inequality...harms health"). Racism absolutely still exists, and that is awful. But to blame poor health outcomes on racism like the author clearly does? That is a lazy, needlessly divisive, incorrect, and sensationalist argument to attempt.

http://www.cdc.gov/socialdeterminants/
 
Also:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25526/
Socioeconomic status better predicts most aspects of health within the white population than within other racial/ethnic groups. If we examine differentials among African Americans and Hispanics, we find that the ability of socioeconomic status to explain differences within these groups is limited.

Part of the root issue in health care disparities is SES, part is genetics, and part is racism. While racism may not be the only contributing factor it's not something that can be ignored either.
 
Your point with this link is...?

That the racism the author is talking about is 'structural racism' and the way you and jquen29 are responding to the article makes me wonder if you're working under the 'that guy doesn't like black people' racism paradigm.

Also, the author is advocating for more research into the effect of race on health outcomes and disparities. I'm not sure how you guys are up in arms that the article doesn't point out any 'solutions'.

The author is saying more work needs to be done and is charging students with doing some of it.

If you're confused about how this work is done, this is a pretty good center:

http://www2.massgeneral.org/disparitiessolutions/
 
That the racism the author is talking about is 'structural racism' and the way you and jquen29 are responding to the article makes me wonder if you're working under the 'that guy doesn't like black people' racism paradigm.

What's the proof of structural racism? The fact that healthcare disparities exist?
 
Can't tell if srs.

I'm 100% serious. If that is in fact your argument, I think it would be helpful to have you walk us from the observation that healthcare disparities exist to the conclusion that structural racism is the cause or, at the least, a contributing factor.
 
Prove to me that the historical treatment and disenfranchisement of african americans (as an example of one group) has nothing to do with the disparities observed in both class, race, and health outcomes in these populations. You know... systemic things like tuskegee happen to white people too!

Or are you arguing that structural racism isn't a 'thing'.

Do you trust state health departments?
http://www.health.state.mn.us/news/pressrel/2014/healthequity020314.html

Quote:

A key insight of the report is that since health inequities are caused by broad set of societal factors, a comprehensive solution is needed that goes beyond just targeted grants or increased access to the health care system. "Stark inequalities persist in some parts of our society - even after factoring in individual choices," Ehlinger said. "So to address these inequities, we need to include the issue of addressing health disparities as part of a broad spectrum of public investments in housing, transportation, education, economic opportunity and criminal justice."

The report also deliberately decided to "open with race" as a strategy for meeting the challenges of health inequities. It found that Minnesota’s health inequities - differences between the health status of one group and another that cannot be explained by bio-genetic factors - are significant and persistent. These health disparities in part have resulted from structural racism, which refers to racism that is built into systems and policies, but does not necessarily stem from individual prejudice.
 
Prove to me that the historical treatment and disenfranchisement of african americans (as an example of one group) has nothing to do with the disparities observed in both class, race, and health outcomes in these populations.

Or are you arguing that structural racism isn't a 'thing'.

Prove to me that it does. See how easy this is? Your making an argument that has as its subtext being a "morally superior" argument. You dismiss my questioning your assertion in a pretty smug and arrogant way. Interestingly, though, you have no evidence to support the assertion. Yet the argument is made because it "seems right" and "seems just."

I'm not making the argument in the posted quote above. The burden of proof isn't on me. You came out here with blazing saddles arguing about structural racism. When I questioned that assertion, you tried to brush me off and then have avoided answering the question altogether.

As an additional exercise, define for me what "structural racism" entails. What do you mean, specifically, when you use the phrase "structural racism?" I'm looking for something more detailed than "the systematic discrimination by governments and businesses against non-whites."

Look, I'm just trying to offer up some interesting discussion by challenging the commonly held view of the world, particularly in well-educated, "elite" circles like those you see in medicine. It's interesting to me that this belief is so strongly held with what, to me, seems to be very little actual, causal evidence.
 
I'm 100% serious. If that is in fact your argument, I think it would be helpful to have you walk us from the observation that healthcare disparities exist to the conclusion that structural racism is the cause or, at the least, a contributing factor.
This is so easy to see man how do you spend all this time on SDN and not get it. Let me sum it up

URMs get admitted to med school with lower stats. This is structural racism. They become less competent doctors, and URMs like to treat other URMs and so we have disparities in health care outcomes

Noob
 
Prove to me that it does. See how easy this is? Your making an argument that has as its subtext being a "morally superior" argument. You dismiss my questioning your assertion in a pretty smug and arrogant way. Interestingly, though, you have no evidence to support the assertion. Yet the argument is made because it "seems right" and "seems just."

I'm not making the argument in the posted quote above. The burden of proof isn't on me. You came out here with blazing saddles arguing about structural racism. When I questioned that assertion, you tried to brush me off and then have avoided answering the question altogether.

As an additional exercise, define for me what "structural racism" entails. What do you mean, specifically, when you use the phrase "structural racism?" I'm looking for something more detailed than "the systematic discrimination by governments and businesses against non-whites."

Look, I'm just trying to offer up some interesting discussion by challenging the commonly held view of the world, particularly in well-educated, "elite" circles like those you see in medicine. It's interesting to me that this belief is so strongly held with what, to me, seems to be very little actual, causal evidence.
So you are saying you're a Republican

Nice
 
This is so easy to see man how do you spend all this time on SDN and not get it. Let me sum it up

URMs get admitted to med school with lower stats. This is structural racism. They become less competent doctors, and URMs like to treat other URMs and so we have disparities in health care outcomes

Noob

Now that's a pretty interesting argument. I'd like to see some evidence - any evidence - that URMs (or those with poorer stats at matriculation) make poorer physicians in a way that tangibly impacts health outcomes. Frankly, that assertion is more racist than anything else said in this thread.
 
So you are saying you're a Republican

Nice

Make an actual argument rather than trying to attack me personally. Statements like this - this one being untrue, but that's beside the point - bother me not in the slightest. It only makes you look like you don't have a leg to stand on with respect to what you're saying.
 
Now that's a pretty interesting argument. I'd like to see some evidence - any evidence - that URMs (or those with poorer stats at matriculation) make poorer physicians in a way that tangibly impacts health outcomes. Frankly, that assertion is more racist than anything else said in this thread.
It's a joke
 
This is so easy to see man how do you spend all this time on SDN and not get it. Let me sum it up

URMs get admitted to med school with lower stats. This is structural racism. They become less competent doctors, and URMs like to treat other URMs and so we have disparities in health care outcomes

Noob

Whoa! That's so offensive! Isn't the whole point of URM admission so that they can better relate with underserved populations thus making them more competent? Are you trying to say that all URMs in medical school will be have inherently lower skill compared to other doctors? I have to say man....wow that is radical. Even the fact that URMs get admitted with lower scores is arguable as most schools are not going to change their average accepted metrics to allow a URM to gain admission this has been said multiple times! Its more like "ok, they have the stats/EC AND they are URM? bonus!" not "well they are below the average but they are URM so lets give him a a chance anyway"

EDIT: ah, it's a joke ok i've calmed down. phew!
 
Prove to me that it does. See how easy this is? Your making an argument that has as its subtext being a "morally superior" argument. You dismiss my questioning your assertion in a pretty smug and arrogant way. Interestingly, though, you have no evidence to support the assertion. Yet the argument is made because it "seems right" and "seems just."

I'm not making the argument in the posted quote above. The burden of proof isn't on me. You came out here with blazing saddles arguing about structural racism. When I questioned that assertion, you tried to brush me off and then have avoided answering the question altogether.

As an additional exercise, define for me what "structural racism" entails. What do you mean, specifically, when you use the phrase "structural racism?" I'm looking for something more detailed than "the systematic discrimination by governments and businesses against non-whites."

Look, I'm just trying to offer up some interesting discussion by challenging the commonly held view of the world, particularly in well-educated, "elite" circles like those you see in medicine. It's interesting to me that this belief is so strongly held with what, to me, seems to be very little actual, causal evidence.

I really don't think you understand philosophy as well as you think you do. I'm not making any claims of moral superiority. Just wondering why the burden of proof rests with me. Define proof and truth in science and this type of sociologic study? Lets play this game if you really want to. It's a really boring semantic game. WHAT IS REALITY ANYWAY? DOES ANY OF THIS REALLY MATTER? I really want to call you descartes right now...

The definition of structural racism is academic in and of itself. A large chunk of americans will tell you that racism doesn't exist because we have a black president. By already putting down 'academic' circles, you've already rendered any 'intellectual definition' as meaningless. So what's your angle here? Want to read that state health department finding I posted, or does that count as lofty academic talk as well. Oddly reminiscent of the entire "I'm not a scientist but..." stuff being said, no?


Here's an easier to read article about that minnesota healt dept 'finding':
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2014/01/29/structural-racism-blamed-for-states-health-disparities

You're picking apart, not my argument, but strawman semantic justifications. In trying to make this grandiose gesture of finding the 'truth and definition' of structural racism, you're diverting the issue from the author of the article in question calling for increased involvement of medical students in research of racial health disparities to figure out what kind of policy based and other interventions help improve outcomes. If policy interventions help, then the issue was structure/setup, hence structural racism.

THIS IS FUN GAIZ!

And another out of UCLA school of PH:

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=8256530&fileId=S1742058X11000130
 
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Also, calm the eff down. @moop was clearly kidding. That's also the funniest thing I've read today. Probably what I get for doing chart reviews all day...
 
I really don't think you understand philosophy as well as you think you do. I'm not making any claims of moral superiority. Just wondering why the burden of proof rests with me. Define proof and truth in science and this type of sociologic study? Lets play this game if you really want to. It's a really boring semantic game. WHAT IS REALITY ANYWAY? DOES ANY OF THIS REALLY MATTER? I really want to call you descartes right now...

The definition of structural racism is academic in and of itself. A large chunk of americans will tell you that racism doesn't exist because we have a black president. By already putting down 'academic' circles, you've already rendered any 'intellectual definition' as meaningless. So what's your angle here? Want to read that state health department finding I posted, or does that count as lofty academic talk as well. Oddly reminiscent of the entire "I'm not a scientist but..." stuff being said, no?

You're picking apart, not my argument, but strawman semantic justifications. In trying to make this grandiose gesture of finding the 'truth and definition' of structural racism, you're diverting the issue from the author of the article in question calling for increased involvement of medical students in research of racial health disparities to figure out what kind of policy based and other interventions help improve outcomes. If policy interventions help, then the issue was structure/setup, hence structural racism.

THIS IS FUN GAIZ!

Then ignore most of what I said in my last post.

Your argument, as I understand it (you still have yet to clarify it): "Structural racism" exists because healthcare disparities exist.

I want to understand why you think that. I'm not trying to pick apart your argument. I'm genuinely interested in how you've come to that conclusion.

Considering how quick and cavalier you were with how you brushed me off, I have to assume that the argument is patently obvious.

You can choose to justify it or not. I don't care. But if the goal is to have a discussion, as you claim in the first post in this thread, then you can contribute to that by helping the discussion along.
 
In case you missed it the first time:

Prove to me that the historical treatment and disenfranchisement of african americans (as an example of one group) has nothing to do with the disparities observed in both class, race, and health outcomes in these populations. You know... systemic things like tuskegee happen to white people too!

Or are you arguing that structural racism isn't a 'thing'.

Do you trust state health departments?
http://www.health.state.mn.us/news/pressrel/2014/healthequity020314.html

Quote:

A key insight of the report is that since health inequities are caused by broad set of societal factors, a comprehensive solution is needed that goes beyond just targeted grants or increased access to the health care system. "Stark inequalities persist in some parts of our society - even after factoring in individual choices," Ehlinger said. "So to address these inequities, we need to include the issue of addressing health disparities as part of a broad spectrum of public investments in housing, transportation, education, economic opportunity and criminal justice."

The report also deliberately decided to "open with race" as a strategy for meeting the challenges of health inequities. It found that Minnesota’s health inequities - differences between the health status of one group and another that cannot be explained by bio-genetic factors - are significant and persistent. These health disparities in part have resulted from structural racism, which refers to racism that is built into systems and policies, but does not necessarily stem from individual prejudice.

I bolded the fun bits for ya!

So existing policies created by the state, or selectively enforced by the state, are responsible for creating a climate of health disparities that disproportionately affect members of certain races even after controlling for socioeconomic factors.

I honestly don't know if I can make the 'working' definition more clear than that.

It's also likely that our views are incommensurable, so it's not really possible to talk about because to talk about an issue, you have to admit there's an issue to begin with and your stance is that an issue doesn't exist...
 
In case you missed it the first time:



I bolded the fun bits for ya!

So existing policies created by the state, or selectively enforced by the state, are responsible for creating a climate of health disparities that disproportionately affect members of certain races even after controlling for socioeconomic factors.

I honestly don't know if I can make the 'working' definition more clear than that.

It's also likely that our views are incommensurable, so it's not really possible to talk about because to talk about an issue, you have to admit there's an issue to begin with and your stance is that an issue doesn't exist...

No, that's not my stance at all. I haven't stated explicitly what my stance is. I'm simply asking you to explain your own perspective. That doesn't say anything about my own view, though you seem to be interpreting my challenging your position as holding the opposite position.

You simply bolded the conclusion that I'm asking you to fully explain. You haven't really clarified anything.
 
Argument 1:
Point 1: Structural racism exists.
???
???
???
Point 1+x: Healthcare disparities are due to this structural racism.

Argument 2:
Point 1: Healthcare disparities exist.
???
???
???
Point 1+x: Structural racism is the cause of these healthcare disparities.

I want to know what the question marks are.
 
You want me to explain the legitimacy of an entire field of study that is being heavily invested into by academic centers like MGH, UChicago, Wustl, JHU, etc?

I'll humor you though. If a policy that changes existing structure in society/government decreases health disparities, then is it fair to say that structure was the cause for that disparity?
-I don't think there's any argument for this, right?

If that is the case and the disparity is disproportionately affecting a certain race, then by definition that makes it structural racism, no?

I should add that if the goal is to set up an echo chamber which simply validates your own conclusions and worldview, then please tell me and I'll happily step out and let the groupthink continue.

Argument 1:
Point 1: Structural racism exists.
???
???
???
Point 1+x: Healthcare disparities are due to this structural racism.

Argument 2:
Point 1: Healthcare disparities exist.
???
???
???
Point 1+x: Structural racism is the cause of these healthcare disparities.

I want to know what the question marks are.

I like this.

Do the same for lung cancer and smoking where the ???'s deal in absolute and refute the example of a person that smokes 1ppd for 30 years not getting cancer.
 
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You want me to explain an entire field of study that is being heavily invested into by academic centers like MGH, UChicago, Wustl, JHU, etc?

I'll humor you though. If a policy that changes existing structure in society/government decreases health disparities, then is it fair to say that structure was the cause for that disparity?
-I don't think there's any argument for this, right?

If that is the case and the disparity is disproportionately affecting a certain race, then by definition that makes it structural racism, no?





I like this.

Do the same for lung cancer and smoking where the ???'s deal in absolute and refute the example of a person that smokes 1ppd for 30 years not getting cancer.

Then point me to those studies. I want to see them and what has actually been done and the impacts of those policy changes.

Structural racism may be one cause, but that is by no means the only cause.

The ??? for smoking and lung cancer are years of study at both the molecular level and population level which demonstrate an irrefutable link between smoking and the development of SCLC. The fact that some people develop cancer and some people don't is hypothesized to be due to genetic differences between groups, the details of which are unknown to us.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that seems to support the argument that healthcare disparities are the result of structural racism. However, I'm open to learning and would welcome anything you can show me that would support this assertion. There is the non-controversial observation that healthcare disparities exist. There is also the historical fact that minorities, in particular African Americans, have been discriminated against at multiple levels of society. I want to know why you think it is that the latter is causally related to the former short of "it is."
 
So you're saying that the discrimination of African Americans at the hands of the state and at multiple levels of society have impacted them in many ways from rates of incarceration to violence at the hands of the state, but disparities in health outcomes for this group are not at all related to this?

Because with everything you've been sayng, especially the last post, is that 'sure this thing affects everything, but not health'.

Your answer, in short is also simply "it isn't." Show me how it's not linked.

As an aside, there have been studies showing that allowing for wider use of food stamps, such as in farmers markets, have improved health outcomes for those on food stamps due to better nutrition. So policy change-> health outcome.

(http://stateofobesity.org/farm-bill/)
(Not the best link, but I worked with a program like this in college and I can find better citations later if you want).
 
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