Thoughts on Utah and Michigan...

[Embarrassed Applicant]

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Hi Everyone,

Right now I have these programs as my #1 and #2 choices, but I'm having a lot of trouble deciding which to put first. I also seem to have misplaced some of my notes from the interview trail, which is making it harder for me to sort through everything.

In general, I like that both programs are resident/family friendly and have a non-hierarcahcal approach to education.

I like Utah because of the great numbers, top-notch international opportunities, protected research time, a good deal of elective time, and an emphasis on outreach. My concerns about Utah are that it's a small program, the lack of diversity of the patient population, and the fact that most residents end up going into private practice. I have gotten the sense from other faculty members (all who hold Utah in high regard) that Utah graduates don't usually go into academics and my suffer from a lack of connections that some of the other top programs can offer.

I like Michigan for many of the same reasons. Protected research and elective time, great research ops in big data/informatics, international ops (although less than Utah), and a diverse patient population. I guess one of the downsides for me is that Ann Arbor is so small. I realize that SLC isn't huge, but I feel like it offers a ton of recreational opportunities that would keep me occupied. Plus, SLC's metro area is quite a bit larger than Ann Arbor's... although I'm not sure what that would mean as a practical matter. However, in my short time in both locations it did seem to me that Ann Arbor (and Michigan in general) has the edge in the beer/pub department.

My ultimate goal is to go into academics, and I'm sure if I was lucky enough to match at either of these programs I would be able to achieve that. Still, it would be nice to be able to feel confident about how I rank these programs rather than simply leaving it to a coin flip.

Anyway, the point of this long-winded rant is to solicit some opinions from folks to help me (and hopefully others) compare and contrast these two programs. I would appreciate it if folks could fill in some of the details about the programs I seem to have misplaced. Specifically, when/how long are Kellogg's elective and research blocks and does anyone remember how long people tended to go abroad for? I believe Utah residents have the option of a 5-week international rotation, but I could be (and usually am) wrong.

Any and all thoughts on this are welcome and appreciated. Thanks!

 

[OphthoApp]

While Utah is a great program Michigan has a far better reputation for a residency program.

 

[Corn Dog]

I had a similar dilemma when I was ranking programs. Although Utah was not one of my top choices, Michigan was definintely one of my favorite programs on the interview trail, and it was extremeley difficult to rank it when the rank list was due.

Let me start off by saying that both are great programs and that you won't go wrong with choosing one over the other. Having said that, I would choose Michigan over Utah if you want to go into academics. Like the poster above mentioned, Michigan has a better reputation and better-connected faculty members. Doing significant research during residency is feasible at Michigan. Michigan has a 7-week research block during the second year. I believe residents could choose to go abroad during that block.

On the other hand, if you want to go into private practice, I would choose Utah over Michigan. There are only a handful of programs that could match the clinical exposure/volume you get at Utah, and the fact that so many graduates from the Utah program go into private practice is a testament to it.

Location-wise, it really depends on what you are looking for in a city. SLC offers many recreational outlets that only a few other cities could match. Utah has the "greatest snow on earth," top-notch ski resorts, and many of the best hiking/biking/running trails. However, although SLC is relatively more diverse than other cities in Utah, there still is a large LDS (mormon) presence there. (You could see an LDS church nearly in every block and LDS seminary building next to almost every middle and high schools). As a result, SLC is relatively dry compared to other similar-sized cities. This could a positive for some people, but negative for others.

Hope that helps.

 

[clayito]

I had a similar dilemma when I was ranking programs. Although Utah was not one of my top choices, Michigan was definintely one of my favorite programs on the interview trail, and it was extremeley difficult to rank it when the rank list was due.

Let me start off by saying that both are great programs and that you won't go wrong with choosing one over the other. Having said that, I would choose Michigan over Utah if you want to go into academics. Like the poster above mentioned, Michigan has a better reputation and better-connected faculty members. Doing significant research during residency is feasible at Michigan. Michigan has a 7-week research block during the second year. I believe residents could choose to go abroad during that block.

On the other hand, if you want to go into private practice, I would choose Utah over Michigan. There are only a handful of programs that could match the clinical exposure/volume you get at Utah, and the fact that so many graduates from the Utah program go into private practice is a testament to it.

Location-wise, it really depends on what you are looking for in a city. SLC offers many recreational outlets that only a few other cities could match. Utah has the "greatest snow on earth," top-notch ski resorts, and many of the best hiking/biking/running trails. However, although SLC is relatively more diverse than other cities in Utah, there still is a large LDS (mormon) presence there. (You could see an LDS church nearly in every block and LDS seminary building next to almost every middle and high schools). As a result, SLC is relatively dry compared to other similar-sized cities. This could a positive for some people, but negative for others.

Hope that helps.

Agree with Corn Dog. It depends on your career plans: if private practice after residency, Utah is hard to beat; if academics and/or fellowship placement is important, Michigan wins. Overall, however, both great programs, so would be hard to go wrong. Best wishes.

 

[JayZBlue]

Just to add another consideration in general when making your rank lists: if you already have a strong interest in a certain subspecialty, it may be wiser to choose a program with stronger faculty in that field or a history of strong fellowship matches in that field, if the caliber of the programs are otherwise similar. In this particular discussion, Utah I believe has a very respected Cornea team, for example. Whether that translates into more residents going into Cornea in this particular case I don't know. Just a general thing to consider that doesn't always come up in these discussions

 

[Schlemm's Canal]

I agree with everything that's been said above, they are both fantastic programs and you will be well prepared for academic or private practice coming out of either place. However, Michigan (in my opinion) is just in a different league than Utah. If your goal is academics, Michigan would be the no brainer. The faculty are world renowned and well connected (helps land fellowships/jobs), the department is large, research opportunities with well known faculty are endless, and the large alumni base helps when you are done and out looking for jobs (alumns love hiring other Michigan grads). Plus, Michigan in general has strong residencies in other specialties and strong business/dental/law schools. I never have to explain to people that ophthalmology at Michigan is great, they just assume it.

The only downside to Michigan is that you don't quite get the cataract numbers that you get at Utah. However, the time spent getting those cataracts at Utah (or other places with high #'s of cataracts like University of Florida, who is on par with Utah) is spent at Michigan doing other important things, so there's always a trade off. At some point, doing too many cataracts means you aren't getting enough experience doing other stuff. To me, the ideal number is around 220 or so (Michigan doesn't quite get that many, Utah gets more). That being said, I think people coming out of both places do great in private practice.

Salt Lake and Ann Arbor are both great. They are two very different cities, but both are fantastic and people love living in both places. Ann Arbor is smaller, but has an awesome downtown and lots going on. It is also absolutely gorgeous with tons of trees. There are plenty of fun cities nearby for a quick weekend getaway as well if that's your thing (Chicago, Toronto, etc. Detroit is 45 minutes away but is useless unless you are a sports fan). Utah, on the other hand, has world-class mountains with incredible skiing, rock climbing, and biking. A wonderland for outdoor enthusiasts. And Las Vegas is 7 hours away, if that's your thing. Both places are very family friendly.

That was long winded. In short, you won't go wrong at either place. Both are great, depends what you are looking for.

 

[DrZeke]

I agree with everything that's been said above, they are both fantastic programs and you will be well prepared for academic or private practice coming out of either place. However, Michigan (in my opinion) is just in a different league than Utah. If your goal is academics, Michigan would be the no brainer. The faculty are world renowned and well connected (helps land fellowships/jobs), the department is large, research opportunities with well known faculty are endless, and the large alumni base helps when you are done and out looking for jobs (alumns love hiring other Michigan grads). Plus, Michigan in general has strong residencies in other specialties and strong business/dental/law schools. I never have to explain to people that ophthalmology at Michigan is great, they just assume it.

The only downside to Michigan is that you don't quite get the cataract numbers that you get at Utah. However, the time spent getting those cataracts at Utah (or other places with high #'s of cataracts like University of Florida, who is on par with Utah) is spent at Michigan doing other important things, so there's always a trade off. At some point, doing too many cataracts means you aren't getting enough experience doing other stuff. To me, the ideal number is around 220 or so (Michigan doesn't quite get that many, Utah gets more). That being said, I think people coming out of both places do great in private practice.

Salt Lake and Ann Arbor are both great. They are two very different cities, but both are fantastic and people love living in both places. Ann Arbor is smaller, but has an awesome downtown and lots going on. It is also absolutely gorgeous with tons of trees. There are plenty of fun cities nearby for a quick weekend getaway as well if that's your thing (Chicago, Toronto, etc. Detroit is 45 minutes away but is useless unless you are a sports fan). Utah, on the other hand, has world-class mountains with incredible skiing, rock climbing, and biking. A wonderland for outdoor enthusiasts. And Las Vegas is 7 hours away, if that's your thing. Both places are very family friendly.

That was long winded. In short, you won't go wrong at either place. Both are great, depends what you are looking for.

About the cataracts. 220 sounds great but most of the programs in the country never get 220 or even 200 but still have people going into private practice every year, so I would not base this decision on cataracts.

I think the most important thing is whether or not you think you want to do academics or fellowship, because then yeah I think Michigan definitely has the edge.

I would argue that sports are not the only reason to go to Chicago or Toronto... LOL... But what do I know... I've been to both cities without watching a sports event.

 

[Schlemm's Canal]

I was only talking about Detroit being useless unless you were a sports fan. Lions/Tigers/Redwings games would probably be fun but not much else to do in Detroit. Chicago and Toronto have tons to do.

 

[LightBox]

Both are great programs, and you would be fortunate to match into either. I don't think matching into one vs. the other would close any doors (e.g. academics) at all. I personally would rather go to Utah because I enjoy world-class skiing.

 

[Embarrassed Applicant]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all of the great comments, they have been very helpful! After seeing the feedback here and after speaking with a few of my mentors, I think Michigan might be a better for my long-term goals. Actually, now I'm trying to decide whether I should rank UCSF or Michigan #1, with Utah at #3 or #4 probably. If anyone has any thoughts or insight into that match up I'd be interested to hear it. Of course, I'll be happy to match anywhere, let alone at one of these top-tier programs!

Thanks again and good luck to everyone in the coming weeks!