"Three-year decision" in APA Accredition a Red Flag?

[Rose Tyler]

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I'm researching programs at the moment in the hope of applying this fall. One of the programs I'm looking into had its accreditation approved to continue for three more years in 2014. The APA's list of accredited programs says "The 3 year decision is based on the CoA’s professional judgment that program resource concerns, instability and/or serious deficiencies remain, but can be corrected in the near future (minor deficiencies typically addressed in the next self-study)."

If everything else in the program seems right to me, should I still apply? (Assuming the program is accepting students this period, as they didn't for 2014-15.) Could it be possible that I would get in and a year later find myself in a program that's lost accreditation?

 

[WisNeuro]

A 3 year approval is indeed a red flag. There are definitely more than minor issues if it was only a 3 year renewal. It is a very real danger that they could lose accreditation next time around if they don't address the major concerns that were raised last time. I would personally run away .But in the end you have to weight the cost/benefit. Although in this case the possible cost is pretty high.

Granted there are likely differences between site visitors, but this would more likely affect things like getting 5 or 7 years. I've been in two site visits, one where a site with what I would consider moderate issues, the other only very minor issues, both got the full 7 years.

 

[smalltownpsych]

It would scare me to think that the program could lose it's accreditation in 2017 which I imagine would be when you are still there. My program received it's 7 year accreditation the first year I was there and has never really had anything less than the seven as far as I know. The only real criticism from our review was that we needed to add more personality psychology to the curriculum. From what I saw they added more neuro classes instead and still got another 7 year accreditation.

 

[futureapppsy2]

A 3 year approval is indeed a red flag. There are definitely more than minor issues if it was only a 3 year renewal. It is a very real danger that they could lose accreditation next time around if they don't address the major concerns that were raised last time. I would personally run away .But in the end you have to weight the cost/benefit. Although in this case the possible cost is pretty high.

Granted there are likely differences between site visitors, but this would more likely affect things like getting 5 or 7 years. I've been in two site visits, one where a site with what I would consider moderate issues, the other only very minor issues, both got the full 7 years.

AFAIK, they couldn't loose accreditation after three years, as APA states that a program has to formally be placed on probation and given--I think--at least a year before the next review (when accreditation can actually be revoked). Still, it's a risk, albeit a fairly small one. I'd find out what the reasons were--I've seen APA have major issues with pretty minor things (IMO), while also letting much bigger issues (abysmal match rates, inaccurate C-20 data, etc) fly.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

What is the program if you don't mind asking? We may be able to tell you if it is even worth looking in to.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Once a program is accredited the probability of staying accredited is good. If a program received a three year accreditation there could be many reasons, not only due to faculty, match rates, students, ect..

My guess is that once a program is accredited, APA COA provides a review of strengths and weaknesses. This is not a guessing game or luck of the draw scenario related to guidelines and standards for APA accreditation and renewal.

Even if a program is placed on probation the probability of retaining accreditation is high as APA COA provides the program with all the recommended changes to remain accredited.

One program I am familiar with that was put on probation several years back had both the counseling and psychology program in the same department with faculty teaching students in each program often in the same classes. This was more common but in the past decade APA has been more concerned about multiple disciplines housed in the same department. The program had to revise their programs and reassign faculty to work in only their specific area. They had to hire additional faculty. This is a counseling psychology program and in the past students who did not pass their comps and allowed to continue with the PhD they would then get the terminal MS and be eligible for LPC licensure. One other problem was a good number of students were not graduation within the timeline due to ABD. They changed the PhD program to no thesis unless the student was getting the terminal MS and for PhD to dissertation only and that they had to have their data collected before going to internship. The program was taken off of probation after their review in 2013 and they now have 7 year accreditation.

Another change was that most of their PhD students already had a research MS degree so it did not make sense for these students to get another MS degree while completing their PhD.


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[WisNeuro]

Even without the loss of accreditation, I would be worried about what is wrong in the first place. That's a long time to be at a place if there are major issues. Grad school is already hard, throw on a bad program on top of that and you are looking at a rough time.

 

[MCParent]

Even without the loss of accreditation, I would be worried about what is wrong in the first place. That's a long time to be at a place if there are major issues. Grad school is already hard, throw on a bad program on top of that and you are looking at a rough time.

I agree.

OND might be right and it could very well be just a small set of issues and a rigorous accreditation team. But you don't know that it's not a series of massive, horrible problems and a light accreditation team.

If I were investing my time, money, and energy in a program where this was happening, I would ask for a copy of the accreditation report letter, myself.

 

[Rose Tyler]

Thanks so much all. I'll keep it under consideration, but without knowing what the issues are I'm not sure it's worth the risk.

What is the program if you don't mind asking? We may be able to tell you if it is even worth looking in to.

It's University of Toledo in Ohio.

 

[MCParent]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-toledo-and-the-apa.1036701/

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I know the program that was put on probation certainly had to do additional internal review of their faculty and practices. They had a number of faculty near retirement age and tenured. The Psychology Department Head was the Head for some twenty odd years and several faculty were nearing retirement. They seemed to have been use to the Status Quo and did not feel they were losing ground in the quality of the program. This is one reason why it is good to have review teams from APA do a site visit at least every seven years. The program had not kept up with diversity of faculty as all faculty where Caucasian with more men than women faculty. The Department Head ended up stepping down and they hired a new Department Head and Clinical Training Director and both were women. Also, they hired or realigned faculty so they had more diverse faculty and they hired two psychologists who had heavy research background in multicultural and LGBTQ studies.

Clearly, in hindsight, going on probation was the best thing and made the need for change obvious for all involved in the program. One thing that kind of took me aback, was that no student had ever been put on probation or a remediation plan in prior years cohort and a number of faculty were actually graduates of the program. Some students did not pass their comps and opted for the MS degree and others decided to not go on with the PhD program but they were not officially put on a probation or remediation plan as it was more of an informal process. I was informed that even the most highly respected programs have a number of students who do not make it through and are put on probation or remediation plans. Additionally, if an internship program does not have students ever put on probation or remediation plans it is a red flag that they may just be advancing everyone regardless of their actual competence.

What I am stating is that APA accreditation is the basic standard for our profession, but if everyone is not regulated with the option of being put on probation or put on a remediation plan than something is amiss with what APA accreditation means. Sometimes probation for a program or a remediation status for a student is necessary for internal inspection and growth. If it brings up a red flag if a program only has 3 years accreditation; it is a needed warning sign that changes are needed to maintain a high level of competence. Many programs and students need to have the warning signs for obtaining internal growth.

 

[Rose Tyler]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-toledo-and-the-apa.1036701/

Whoa. It didn't occur to me to search for the program itself on here; I won't forget next time. If the article is true, that doesn't sound like minor issues and I don't think that's a program I would want to be involved in.

 

[MCParent]

Whoa. It didn't occur to me to search for the program itself on here; I won't forget next time. If the article is true, that doesn't sound like minor issues and I don't think that's a program I would want to be involved in.

That article was a year ago; you could ask the poi and current students about how things are now.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

On paper it seems to be a high quality program.. They have small cohorts but one and two years ago they only had 75% 3/4, and 50% 3/6 match but most recent year they had 9 students match for 100% 9/9 match. I bet they retain accreditation at the seven year level upon their next review. All of the students in the program are listed so you could email

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[EmotRegulation]

You definitely want to talk to current students if you can, but from what I have heard from people associated with that program, things remain difficult for students and the climate is not conducive to a good graduate school experience.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't know anything about the program specifically, but I will say more generally (and in my opinion) that the importance of having a healthy student-faculty "vibe" cannot be overstated in terms of your quality of life as a grad student.

 

[hopeful8]

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[ I've moved this post into it's own thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...for-3-years-what-do-you-make-of-that.1107489/ ]

 

[postitnote]

This is an old thread so it my comment may not be worthwhile at this point. However, there actually are a number of things that can cause a program to receive 3 year accreditation, some of which relates to facilities and/or class or syllabus format, faculty turnover, number of faculty who are licensed. While some may be more egregious errors than others, I think if the program seems solid in other ways, it is worth at least checking out.