Throw Out US News and Any Other Rankings

[antihero94]

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To the many of you are just starting applying I offer this advice.

I am starting my second year of medical school in just over 2 weeks. I am working this summer enrolling patients in the ER, and when I am not busy reading all the crazy @ss posts here on SDN. I want to offer just 1 bit of important advice.

THROW OUT RANKINGS BOOKS.

These books/mags are so flawed. If you pick which schools to apply to based on rankings you are a bonafide *****. I "was" a ***** when I started the process of applying. I thought my credentials ENTITLED me to admission to a top tier ivy league school or something (see my credentials here http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3899 ). After going through the entire process and having one year under my belt of medical school I realized how stupid I was. Here are just some of the faults of rankings

1) Divided up into "research" and "primary care ratings." Research ratings are based almost entirely on research $$ coming in. What does this have to do with the quality of education you are going to recieve? Nothing (unless perhaps you are MD-pHD). And unless you are shooting for a career in primary care these rankings are useless. Closer examination reveals that the two different categories couldn't have more different schools. Why not have these ranking categories "Students most pleased with their education," or "Schools that get students into their top residency choices."

2) Subjectivity: US News picks which criteria they want to measure and how to rank it. Give different weight to different criteria and bam you have a whole new set of schools with different rankins.

3) Peer scorings: schools rank other schools based on prestige. Let's not kid ourselves here, the ivy league adminstration has their heads so far up their own butts its impossible for them to be impartial on this. "Harvard medical school, the best medical school in the country. According to: Harvard medical school."

Please guys don't fall into this trap. Find schools where you like their programs. Where you like their class sizes. Where you like their testing style. Where you like their amount of PBL. Where you like weekly schedule. Where you like their location. After you interview find remember why some schools seemed really great (great students, great faculty interviewers, etc.) If you do this, you will save a lot of money on applying and end up where you are going to be happiest. If you like Harvard because of their location and program great, but don't be led astray but stupid US News and World Reports. The best ranking of a school is by its students, email and talk to them.

 

[silas2642]

Thank you so much for this post.... I really appreciate it-- everyone in this forum seems to be completely obsessed with "top 20" rankings, getting into these ivy-league schools, mcat scores and gpas. It drives me nuts sometimes. I agree with you; you should pick your school (if you're blessed enough to have options) based on how it fulfills your needs, whether or not you fit into their system. I don't want to learn medicine from a$$holes, personally. I want to learn medicine from doctors I want to emulate.

 

[drmota]

To the many of you are just starting applying I offer this advice.

I am starting my second year of medical school in just over 2 weeks. I am working this summer enrolling patients in the ER, and when I am not busy reading all the crazy @ss posts here on SDN. I want to offer just 1 bit of important advice.

THROW OUT RANKINGS BOOKS.

These books/mags are so flawed. If you pick which schools to apply to based on rankings you are a bonafide *****. I "was" a ***** when I started the process of applying. I thought my credentials ENTITLED me to admission to a top tier ivy league school or something (see my credentials here http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3899 ). After going through the entire process and having one year under my belt of medical school I realized how stupid I was. Here are just some of the faults of rankings

1) Divided up into "research" and "primary care ratings." Research ratings are based almost entirely on research $$ coming in. What does this have to do with the quality of education you are going to recieve? Nothing (unless perhaps you are MD-pHD). And unless you are shooting for a career in primary care these rankings are useless. Closer examination reveals that the two different categories couldn't have more different schools. Why not have these ranking categories "Students most pleased with their education," or "Schools that get students into their top residency choices."

2) Subjectivity: US News picks which criteria they want to measure and how to rank it. Give different weight to different criteria and bam you have a whole new set of schools with different rankins.

3) Peer scorings: schools rank other schools based on prestige. Let's not kid ourselves here, the ivy league adminstration has their heads so far up their own butts its impossible for them to be impartial on this. "Harvard medical school, the best medical school in the country. According to: Harvard medical school."

Please guys don't fall into this trap. Find schools where you like their programs. Where you like their class sizes. Where you like their testing style. Where you like their amount of PBL. Where you like weekly schedule. Where you like their location. After you interview find remember why some schools seemed really great (great students, great faculty interviewers, etc.) If you do this, you will save a lot of money on applying and end up where you are going to be happiest. If you like Harvard because of their location and program great, but don't be led astray but stupid US News and World Reports. The best ranking of a school is by its students, email and talk to them.

sounds like great advice...but where do i get this information: class sizes, good faculty, class hours per week. i wouldn't know where to find people that go to certain schools either. any advice would be grand. thanks
-mota

 

[radioh3ad]

congrats on all your acceptances. i assume you're going to cornell right now.

Are you happy there? your post has a slight undertone of regret and bitterness.

 

[antihero94]

Haha. No, I decided against the IVY. I go to UConn now. Amazing school, amazing people, amazing faculty. I am so happy with my decision. The bitterness and regret is at myself for letting myself be led so far astray and not realizing till I enrolled at UConn and didn't get off the wait-list at Yale, that I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

Todd

PS: Radiohead rocks. Haven't seen them live since the "Hail to Theif" tour. What the hell have they been up to?

congrats on all your acceptances. i assume you're going to cornell right now.

Are you happy there? your post has a slight undertone of regret and bitterness.

 

[antihero94]

sounds like great advice...but where do i get this information: class sizes, good faculty, class hours per week. i wouldn't know where to find people that go to certain schools either. any advice would be grand. thanks
-mota

You could start with the MSAR or school web-sites. If you want to get in touch with students, I recommend calling the admissions office and asking if they have any student representatives you could talk to. One caveat: if a student volunteers to talk to you they probably LOVE their school. Might or might not be a good thing.

 

[drmota]

Haha. No, I decided against the IVY. I go to UConn now. Amazing school, amazing people, amazing faculty. I am so happy with my decision. The bitterness and regret is at myself for letting myself be led so far astray and not realizing till I enrolled at UConn and didn't get off the wait-list at Yale, that I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

Todd

PS: Radiohead rocks. Haven't seen them live since the "Hail to Theif" tour. What the hell have they been up to?

They are currently working on a new album, set to drop early 2006. the hail to the thief tour was unbelievable. i saw them front row at the shoreline in SF on my birthday(my tickets were way in the back but when they came on i sprinted to the front and nobody could stop me).
-mota

 

[wowzer]

Haha. No, I decided against the IVY. I go to UConn now. Amazing school, amazing people, amazing faculty. I am so happy with my decision. The bitterness and regret is at myself for letting myself be led so far astray and not realizing till I enrolled at UConn and didn't get off the wait-list at Yale, that I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

Todd

PS: Radiohead rocks. Haven't seen them live since the "Hail to Theif" tour. What the hell have they been up to?

This completely nullifies your argument. Sure, we shouldn't pick schools based off some magazine rankings and we should have an idea of the program taht we want. But it seems to me that your anger/regret is just frustration at the admissions process as a whole. You can't use this ranking argument of yours if you haven't even attended any of these "top 20 schools" yourself. You're making it sound like they have crummy programs compared to lower schools, where in fact all medical schools, accredited and strictly regulated, offer solid programs.

Yes, make well-informed decisions about the schools you want to apply to. But your argument would only be valid if it was coming from someone who applied to these schools based on the rankings and actually got admitted and attended. You can't hate a school because you're not going there

 

[45408]

Read the different forums on SDN to see what people think of their schools. Remember that a happy student at one school doesn't mean you will be too. You might hate PBL at Northwestern or the thesis at Yale, but someone else might love it. Other people don't like pass/fail when it comes to applying to residencies, but others like the pressure it takes off. MCW gives all of their exams in a several day period, but then no more exams for a month or so. Lots of pressure at once, but then a long break. UWisc has an exam every week. No huge build-up of pressure, but no real breaks, either.

Apply to enough schools that you might get a few interviews so that you can see what the atmosphere is like at that school.

 

[45408]

You're making it sound like they have crummy programs compared to lower schools, where in fact all medical schools, accredited and strictly regulated, offer solid programs.

Pretty sure you misread that. He's saying that if you're not interested in doing top research, why would you go to a top research school?

 

[drmota]

Read the different forums on SDN to see what people think of their schools. Remember that a happy student at one school doesn't mean you will be too. You might hate PBL at Northwestern or the thesis at Yale, but someone else might love it. Other people don't like pass/fail when it comes to applying to residencies, but others like the pressure it takes off. MCW gives all of their exams in a several day period, but then no more exams for a month or so. Lots of pressure at once, but then a long break. UWisc has an exam every week. No huge build-up of pressure, but no real breaks, either.

Apply to enough schools that you might get a few interviews so that you can see what the atmosphere is like at that school.

where'd you get some of that info. i dont even know where to find info on pass/fail about schools, not even on their websites. thanks
-mota

 

[radioh3ad]

tried doing that at HTTT tour MSG1 and got sent back. big burly security. it's ok though.

they really should do a prerelease tour in the states like they did with salamanca and the like last time.

/off topic

i'm glad you feel like you made the right decision. i've heard continuously that the PBL focus at cornell is either a just shock at first or flat out overwhelming.

should def find out board scores, residency matching, student debt, campus accessibility and affiliated hospitals.

 

[antihero94]

This completely nullifies your argument. Sure, we shouldn't pick schools based off some magazine rankings and we should have an idea of the program taht we want. But it seems to me that your anger/regret is just frustration at the admissions process as a whole. You can't use this ranking argument of yours if you haven't even attended any of these "top 20 schools" yourself. You're making it sound like they have crummy programs compared to lower schools, where in fact all medical schools, accredited and strictly regulated, offer solid programs.

Yes, make well-informed decisions about the schools you want to apply to. But your argument would only be valid if it was coming from someone who applied to these schools based on the rankings and actually got admitted and attended. You can't hate a school because you're not going there

Dude,
I don't hate any medical schools. In fact, I tell all the students I interview or give tours to at UConn that "all medical schools are fantastic, all have the ability to make you a great doctor, and its all about finding the school that is the right fit for you."

Here is an obvious statement. I don't know what it is like to attend any of the schools I don't attend. I know nothing about their programs. I am not bashing any of these schools. What I am encouraging people to do is not waste thousands of dollars applying to schools just based on rankings. I am encouraging them to go where they think they will be happiest. You often don't realize this till you are sitting with a couple of acceptances in your hand and a couple of wait-lists you are just waiting for a call back from and you say... "hmmm go with the higher ranked school and hope it helps me get a better residency, or go with the school I think I will be happier at." I am just hoping to help people realize that rankings are BS and all schools are great. ALL... that means the top ranked schools and the bottom ranked schools.

Cheers,
-Todd

 

[evade]

I like this post. Choosing a med school goes way beyond the rankings. When I was doing my secondaries, I had this totally concrete ranking system in my head. When I interviewed, those rankings were totally shot to hell. Some of the schools I'd applied to as "safeties" were a much better fit for me than some of the top-notch schools. Heck, I was psyched about my Northwestern interview, but when I walked out at the end of the day, all I could think was, "my God, I can't go here." Doing that much PBL would've driven me nuts, and I didn't feel the setting was right for me. That's not to say it's not right for others, but everyone's got to make their own choice, regardless of what other people think.

 

[silas2642]

This completely nullifies your argument. Sure, we shouldn't pick schools based off some magazine rankings and we should have an idea of the program taht we want. But it seems to me that your anger/regret is just frustration at the admissions process as a whole. You can't use this ranking argument of yours if you haven't even attended any of these "top 20 schools" yourself. You're making it sound like they have crummy programs compared to lower schools, where in fact all medical schools, accredited and strictly regulated, offer solid programs.

Yes, make well-informed decisions about the schools you want to apply to. But your argument would only be valid if it was coming from someone who applied to these schools based on the rankings and actually got admitted and attended. You can't hate a school because you're not going there

Dude, i think he's just saying that you should'nt choose a school based on the name... you base it on the caliber of the faculty, their devotion to their students, a school's strengths and weaknesses, the members of your class, etc. He's not bitter. He's just giving some good advice

 

[TheMightyAngus]

What was the big draw at UConn to lead you there?

 

[pagemmapants]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

 

[antihero94]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

I will show you a great doctor from Miami, and a terrible doctor from "Hopkins." I could also show you a terrible doctor from Miami and a great doctor from Hopkins. Once inside the medical field you will find 1) patients judge your prowess as a doctor based on your people skills. Studies have shown that even the least skilled doctors scored well by their patients when they had good people skills. 99% of patients don't care about where you went to medical school, but how you treat them. 2) Medical school is what you make of it. Unlike undegrad the finished products of all medical schools are pretty much the same. Look at match lists, I think you will be presently surprised.

Ironically this post was most intended for people like yourself, I guess you just can't be reached. My guess is also you have still an undergraduate who probably goes to some big name undergraduate who has zero clue what patients really want in a doctor, or what other colleagues care about in a physician, etc.

Oh well.

Cheers,
-Todd

 

[antihero94]

What was the big draw at UConn to lead you there?

I initially applied to UConn because they had a reduced rate for New Hampshire students since we don't have a state medical school. I was sure as hell I wasn't going there. I was convinced I was going to Columbia, Yale, or Cornell. But my interview changed everything.

The school has an awesome curriculum. Organ based, with only 4 hours of lecture, conferences, dissection, etc. per day in the basic medical sciences. You are learning about the physiology of the heart while dissecting it.

Small class. 80 medical students per class.

Limited PBL. CHoosing PBL is so tough because you really have no clue what it is like. I did a little research and found PBL schools tend to do slightly worse on their boards, and I wasn't sure if I was confortable with that.

Testing procedures. Only 7 tests all years. They are long (like 7 hours spread out over 3 days). Most like boards, and allows you to self guide your studying.

Lots of clinical. 4 hours of a clinical medicine class each week. PLUS SCP (student continuity practice). One of only 2 programs like it in the country. For your first 3 (4 if you choose) years you spend 4 hours per week in a primary care site caring for patients. This isn't a BS program either. I do everything. History, phsyicals, write scripts (co-signed of course), do lab tests, call in prescriptions, give shots, do vitals, etc. I even make diagnoses and my preceptor trusts me. Also a great way to get to know people.

Cost. UConn is soo cheap. Even if you are out of state you get to become in-state after just 1 year (look at the prices).

THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON: People. I loved everyone I met. On my interview everyone was soo nice. Claudio worked at the cafe even took the time to ask how my day was going. At the end of the interview the Dean of Admissions asks you to interview him and tell him how the day went.

I don't know I LOVE UConn. I think how lucky I am since I ALMOST went to 1 of 4 other schools.

Anyone who has any questions about UConn I would love to answer them

Cheers,
-Todd

 

[antihero94]

I initially applied to UConn because they had a reduced rate for New Hampshire students since we don't have a state medical school. I was sure as hell I wasn't going there. I was convinced I was going to Columbia, Yale, or Cornell. But my interview changed everything.

The school has an awesome curriculum. Organ based, with only 4 hours of lecture, conferences, dissection, etc. per day in the basic medical sciences. You are learning about the physiology of the heart while dissecting it.

Small class. 80 medical students per class.

Limited PBL. CHoosing PBL is so tough because you really have no clue what it is like. I did a little research and found PBL schools tend to do slightly worse on their boards, and I wasn't sure if I was confortable with that.

Testing procedures. Only 7 tests all years. They are long (like 7 hours spread out over 3 days). Most like boards, and allows you to self guide your studying.

Lots of clinical. 4 hours of a clinical medicine class each week. PLUS SCP (student continuity practice). One of only 2 programs like it in the country. For your first 3 (4 if you choose) years you spend 4 hours per week in a primary care site caring for patients. This isn't a BS program either. I do everything. History, phsyicals, write scripts (co-signed of course), do lab tests, call in prescriptions, give shots, do vitals, etc. I even make diagnoses and my preceptor trusts me. Also a great way to get to know people.

Cost. UConn is soo cheap. Even if you are out of state you get to become in-state after just 1 year (look at the prices).

THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON: People. I loved everyone I met. On my interview everyone was soo nice. Claudio worked at the cafe even took the time to ask how my day was going. At the end of the interview the Dean of Admissions asks you to interview him and tell him how the day went.

I don't know I LOVE UConn. I think how lucky I am since I ALMOST went to 1 of 4 other schools.

Anyone who has any questions about UConn I would love to answer them

Cheers,
-Todd

Forgot something:

A true pass/fail the first 2 years. No matter what any school tells you on interviews (ie georgetown) at least one true pass fail school exists. Every student who passes gets the same paragraph in their letter for residencies. This discourages competition. To those who are curious, it in no way means you can't make yourself stand out. Their are plenty of ways to do that. Years 3 and 4 are honors, pass, fail.

 

[Orth2006]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

The funny thing about your post is that the truth will stand out regardless of what school you go to. If you are a good physician, your work will speak for it self and for you. You don't need the prestige of a school to speak for you. The teaching and training standard amongst med schools in US are basically the same so you dont necessariy get better trained at Harvard versus Miami.

Furthermore with the doctor shortage facing most states I doubt that patients especially in underserved areas will be picky. We don't all have to be "hollywood" doctors.

 

[45408]

The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

🙄 Like Joe Patient has any clue what a top school is other than Harvard or Yale. You could tell them you went to Princeton Med, and they would just hand you the cash. Seriously, they'll just assume that any recognizable name is a good name, and they WON'T know the difference between the University of Washington, and Washington University, but they'll probably think that Yale would be higher ranked than both of those "podunk" schools just because "it's an Ivy."

If you're board certified in what they want done, it's not gonna matter to them much at all.

 

[dilated]

THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON: People. I loved everyone I met. On my interview everyone was soo nice. Claudio worked at the cafe even took the time to ask how my day was going. At the end of the interview the Dean of Admissions asks you to interview him and tell him how the day went.

This seems like the worst possible way to choose a school. Of course they are going to put forth their best face for interviews - they're not going to send that troglodyte who hasn't left the medical library in 2 years to do it. Moreover, how good an impression you get would likely be more related to how good the admissions office is at marketing rather than how good the school is going to be when you get there. Curriculum, however, is a very good thing to consider. I too am concerned about PBL.

There would seem to be some advantages going to a top name school, at least if you want to do a very selective residency. Research support (essential) is typically better - you can get like 15k a quarter or something as a Stanford RA and the labs you'll work in will probably be better supported. Furthermore, your letters of recommendation will come from "big shots" in the field if you did your clinicals at, say, MGH. Obviously it's not the predominant factor, but those sorts of things can help and are worth considerng.

 

[diosa428]

they're not going to send that troglodyte who hasn't left the medical library in 2 years to do it.

HAHAHAHA TROGLODYTE!!!! Excellent word.

 

[goinverted]

Dilated, I commend you on your superior ability to destroy the MCAT. Any way I could pay you to take it for me with your eyes closed, you'd probably still get a 30. HaHa!

 

[CTSballer11]

🙄 Like Joe Patient has any clue what a top school is other than Harvard or Yale. You could tell them you went to Princeton Med, and they would just hand you the cash. Seriously, they'll just assume that any recognizable name is a good name, and they WON'T know the difference between the University of Washington, and Washington University, but they'll probably think that Yale would be higher ranked than both of those "podunk" schools just because "it's an Ivy."

If you're board certified in what they want done, it's not gonna matter to them much at all.

You make an excellent point.

 

[CTSballer11]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

You are making the point that if you do not go to a top name medical school your colleagues will not treat you well? I guess the Chief of cardiothoracic surgery at Johns Hopkins is treated bad by his colleagues because he did not attend a prestigous medical school. ( He attended the University of Kentucky).

 

[radioh3ad]

You are making the point that if you do not go to a top name medical school your colleagues will not treat you well? I guess the Chief of cardiothoracic surgery at Johns Hopkins is treated bad by his colleagues because he did not attend a prestigous medical school. ( He attended the University of Kentucky).

very poignant

 

[TheMightyAngus]

🙄 Like Joe Patient has any clue what a top school is other than Harvard or Yale. You could tell them you went to Princeton Med, and they would just hand you the cash. Seriously, they'll just assume that any recognizable name is a good name, and they WON'T know the difference between the University of Washington, and Washington University, but they'll probably think that Yale would be higher ranked than both of those "podunk" schools just because "it's an Ivy."

If you're board certified in what they want done, it's not gonna matter to them much at all.

Most Joe Patients also think that anyone who wears a white coat is a doctor. If they can't distinguish the attending from the resident from the intern from the medical student, the couldn't care less where you went to medical school.

 

[45408]

Most Joe Patients also think that anyone who wears a white coat is a doctor. If they can't distinguish the attending from the resident from the intern from the medical student, the couldn't care less where you went to medical school.

True that. I see patients calling someone "Doctor" all the time, and I'll think "Wow, s/he looks really young....." and see that it's an MS3/MS4. They'll walk out of the ER thinking they talked to the doctor, and that a physician's assistant was the ER tech who took their vitals and their name.

 

[Ambs]

True that. I see patients calling someone "Doctor" all the time, and I'll think "Wow, s/he looks really young....." and see that it's an MS3/MS4. They'll walk out of the ER thinking they talked to the doctor, and that a physician's assistant was the ER tech who took their vitals and their name.

Yup!!

 

[Ambs]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

I agree with how the others have responded to your post. The bottom line is that patients do not care nor do they ask or even wonder where you went to school. For the most part, patients don't have any idea what it even entails to become a doctor -- an undergraduate degree before actual med school, a very competitive and grueling application process, etc. Patients respond to the way you talk to them, whether you actually listen to them, and how you take care of them. Your colleagues won't care either where you went to school. They'll care about how you treated the patient they referred to you. Your respect, prestige, and success once you're in practice are achieved through excellence in patient care. If your referral base is consistent and large, then you know you're doing something right, and if your patients are spreading the word about you, then you're doing just fine.

 

[neurogeek23]

True that. I see patients calling someone "Doctor" all the time, and I'll think "Wow, s/he looks really young....." and see that it's an MS3/MS4. They'll walk out of the ER thinking they talked to the doctor, and that a physician's assistant was the ER tech who took their vitals and their name.

Seriously, my patients think I'm their doctor the first time I meet them alll the time. I'm 24 but I look like I'm 16 (seriously, Harrahs casino the other day accused me of having a fake ID, there was nooo waayyy I was 24!). I'm a research coordinator and wear the same white coat and have a beeper and an ID badge, so they immediately assume that this is their doctor and implicitly trust me, they don't even look for the "M.D." at the end of my name talk about worry about the ranking of what med school I attended!

 

[antihero94]

I have to say that on one level I do agree with the OP; of course ranking systems are going to be flawed/skewed, and of course ALL medical schools in the US are going to be decent programs, and of COURSE you have to consider other factors in your selection of the best schools for you. However, the fact remains that from the perspective of the patients, a school that they've always heard is a "fantastic medical school" is ALWAYS going to come out on top of "podunk med" that they've never heard of regardless of how solid P.M.'s med program might be. Colleagues will feel the same way; a "Hopkins Man" is always going to be initially viewed with a slightly higher "oooh" factor than a guy who went to Miami, simply because virtually every physician knows of the established tradition of churning out phenomenal doctors that Hopkins has. That's why the phrase still exists. With regard to specialty - sure, nobody will give a crap where you went for med school if you're in emergency medicine. . . but as far as certain plastics or dermatology? The well-moneyed of the world who want to pay for elective surgeries or microdermabrasion will certainly prefer a physician who happened to go to an Ivy med.

Regardless of what the "ideal" might be, and regardless of how "flawed" the current systems of ranking are, the fact remains that certain medical schools carry with them a certain level of tradition/prestige/respect that, unless you completely don't give a damn about the demographics of your future clientele or how you're going to be treated by your colleagues, demands at least a certain level of consideration.

And if you truly don't care? More power to you - the tropics are nice any time of year.

What demographic of people are you getting into medicine to help? The rich few (less then 1%) who are narcissistic and only want the best doctor who went to Harvard? If that is the case do not say that on an interview. I REPEAT DO NOT SAY THAT ON AN INTERVIEW. It will DESTROY your chances of getting into medical school.

On the other hand, I got into medical school to help a certain demographic of people. Anyone who needs my service, especially the underserved. These are the people who need doctors most.

To be honest with you I don't give a damn about what my colleagues think. When I am lying on my death bed I am not going to say "well my colleagues thought I was a great doctor." I am going to say "wow I really meant a lot to my PATIENTS."

Stop worrying about what the "hopkins man" is going to think about you, or how impressed another Columbia doctor is going to be that you went to med school there. All that really matters as a doctor is what your patients think.

 

[jhugti]

2 things-

1. It seems to me that choosing a school based mostly on the people you meet there is asking for trouble. Schools aren't homogenous collections of students, and EVERY school likely has a group of kids you could/would get along with well. Further, as has already been said, the people who volunteer to sell a school on interview/revisit day are of course going to be outgoing and warm- this shouldn't come as a surprise. And, if they aren't, couldn't they just be having a rough week or a personal problem? Unless you have personal information re: academic and social climate from friends of yours who are students at given med school I think its a little foolish to form an opinion of an institution based on the few people you happen to meet and greet with. I accept that certain places have a "feel" about them that just seems right (or wrong), but to base a school selection primarily on that seems a bit foolhardy.

2. The (oft-quoted, I might add) SDN mantra that "the only thing that matters is what your patients think of you" is a serious oversimplification of a highly complex and heirarchical profession. Like it or not (and I don't think it always fair), where you come from influences the way you are looked at. More relevant, in academic medicine it really matters. Moving up the ranks in a university health system is not (for better or worse) dictated by the quality of patient care or teaching you do. Publications and *research* are the end indicators that determine tenure and promotion. I would contend that it isn't coincidence that such a high percentage of graduates from "top" institutions succesfully enter academic medicine. Let me address in advance the criticism that your friend's dad, your dad's friend, a famous guy, etc. went to Hollywood Upstairs medical college and is now the director of pediatric cardiothoracic-neuro-orthopedics at Harvard. These people exist, but they are not the rule.

Do you have to go to an Ivy or equivalent school to get good training in research? Of course not. Does it help- you bet. Schools like Hopkins are incredible because of the variety and depth of medical development and research that go on there. Sure, the patient care is good, but in the end there are good doctors everywhere (as has been pointed out some umpteen times already in this thread). Its that ingenuity and trailblazing reputation that people (physicians and patients alike) come to a Hopkins for.

Further, connections are everything in the academic medicine world. Training under so-and-so or having your famous mentor make a couple calls come fellowship application time makes all the difference in where you train and where you end up. I'm not patently supporting this system (that's an argument for a different day), but to pretend it doesn't exist is foolish at an individual level and constitutes misleading advice to would-be applicants who may not know better. Again, if you are interested only in practicing medicine in a private/hospital based practice (and this is a perfectly noble goal) then it is less likely to matter that you reap the research experience and academic connections that an Ivy affords. If, however, you are interested in rising through the ranks of academic medicine, it pays to go to a place with cutting edge research and big names.

*edit- the academic quality of a school may or may not be reflected in its US News rank- I have nothing vested in the rankings, and can understand taht there are flaws in their creation. My point is that the certain qualities of certain institutions matter. How you go about discerning those qualities is another (difficult) question.

 

[visualwealth]

What demographic of people are you getting into medicine to help? The rich few (less then 1%) who are narcissistic and only want the best doctor who went to Harvard? If that is the case do not say that on an interview. I REPEAT DO NOT SAY THAT ON AN INTERVIEW. It will DESTROY your chances of getting into medical school.

On the other hand, I got into medical school to help a certain demographic of people. Anyone who needs my service, especially the underserved. These are the people who need doctors most.

To be honest with you I don't give a damn about what my colleagues think. When I am lying on my death bed I am not going to say "well my colleagues thought I was a great doctor." I am going to say "wow I really meant a lot to my PATIENTS."

Stop worrying about what the "hopkins man" is going to think about you, or how impressed another Columbia doctor is going to be that you went to med school there. All that really matters as a doctor is what your patients think.

Good post!! seilienne's post may have been the most disgraceful post I have read this week lol. In all honesty people always talk about prestige but, it is never where you go but, how you do... Financial aid is worth a lot more than a name... Let’s say you go to Hopkins med/ Harvard residency and Columbia fellowship and, someone does the same exact residency and fellowship at a less reputable school... You may be surprised to find out that they will have the same potential to do everything you do.

 

[amojan99]

I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster. Just read my quote below.

 

[antihero94]

2 things-

1. It seems to me that choosing a school based mostly on the people you meet there is asking for trouble. Schools aren't homogenous collections of students, and EVERY school likely has a group of kids you could/would get along with well. Further, as has already been said, the people who volunteer to sell a school on interview/revisit day are of course going to be outgoing and warm- this shouldn't come as a surprise. And, if they aren't, couldn't they just be having a rough week or a personal problem? Unless you have personal information re: academic and social climate from friends of yours who are students at given med school I think its a little foolish to form an opinion of an institution based on the few people you happen to meet and greet with. I accept that certain places have a "feel" about them that just seems right (or wrong), but to base a school selection primarily on that seems a bit foolhardy.

2. The (oft-quoted, I might add) SDN mantra that "the only thing that matters is what your patients think of you" is a serious oversimplification of a highly complex and heirarchical profession. Like it or not (and I don't think it always fair), where you come from influences the way you are looked at. More relevant, in academic medicine it really matters. Moving up the ranks in a university health system is not (for better or worse) dictated by the quality of patient care or teaching you do. Publications and *research* are the end indicators that determine tenure and promotion. I would contend that it isn't coincidence that such a high percentage of graduates from "top" institutions succesfully enter academic medicine. Let me address in advance the criticism that your friend's dad, your dad's friend, a famous guy, etc. went to Hollywood Upstairs medical college and is now the director of pediatric cardiothoracic-neuro-orthopedics at Harvard. These people exist, but they are not the rule.

Do you have to go to an Ivy or equivalent school to get good training in research? Of course not. Does it help- you bet. Schools like Hopkins are incredible because of the variety and depth of medical development and research that go on there. Sure, the patient care is good, but in the end there are good doctors everywhere (as has been pointed out some umpteen times already in this thread). Its that ingenuity and trailblazing reputation that people (physicians and patients alike) come to a Hopkins for.

Further, connections are everything in the academic medicine world. Training under so-and-so or having your famous mentor make a couple calls come fellowship application time makes all the difference in where you train and where you end up. I'm not patently supporting this system (that's an argument for a different day), but to pretend it doesn't exist is foolish at an individual level and constitutes misleading advice to would-be applicants who may not know better. Again, if you are interested only in practicing medicine in a private/hospital based practice (and this is a perfectly noble goal) then it is less likely to matter that you reap the research experience and academic connections that an Ivy affords. If, however, you are interested in rising through the ranks of academic medicine, it pays to go to a place with cutting edge research and big names.

*edit- the academic quality of a school may or may not be reflected in its US News rank- I have nothing vested in the rankings, and can understand taht there are flaws in their creation. My point is that the certain qualities of certain institutions matter. How you go about discerning those qualities is another (difficult) question.

I am not quite sure what your point is.

At the very end you basically agree with me. Screw the US News Rankings and figure out what is important to you.

I also want to note that you may have been slightly offended by the fact that Hopkins was chosen as an example by another poster. I have nothing but love for ALL medical schools and will not judge any of my future colleagues good or bad based on where they went to medical school.

I do agree that going to a school with a great research program may help if research is what you want to do... BUT most medical students only have 2 times to do research. During the summer between first and second years, and during fourth year. So you can go an be some lab rat in a famous professors lab, but does that really help you more then taking a more active role in a smaller lab? I don't know. Also, if you want to go into a residency that doesn't require research (many of them) other factors may be important. I know that going to a school like mine where we spend 3 years with a doctor 4 hours a week for 4 years will give me a fantastic recommendation (my doctor is on the faculty at 2 medical schools in CT). So research really depends on what you want to go into.

I also want to note that where you do your residency is what is really going to help you in your career. It is important to know that not everyone wants to be chief of oncology at World's Best Medical School Hospital. Some people want a warm residency.

Some people want to get places in life by sucking up to "world renown proffessors." But you can also be widly successful by just paying your dues no matter what the situation.

Cheers,
-Todd

 

[pagemmapants]

Well here's the thing - (first off, I love that I got such a response from this. . . ) I DO agree that it's potential that, in the end, matters (as exemplified so well by the JH CVS chief). Funnily enough, Prowler, if I got into UW and Harvard I'd damn well choose UW first. I just don't believe that ranking and tradition of a school have the complete lack of effect that some would love to believe. . . antihero, of COURSE I won't say that in an interview - what, am I completely deranged? And no, before you all make some sort of crazy judgement, I'm not a future plastic surgeon/dermatologist, I just felt like pointing out a different perspective. Rose-colored glasses may feel nice for a while, but there remains a reason that some schools have are in the "higher echelon" to the general population while others, while possibly equally or even more respectable in many other ways, remain somewhat less well known. In the end it all falls to what's important to you: if connections and prestige matter, go for the Ivies, if location matters more, go for the climates you love, if expense is your number one concern, stick with state schools. Nobody can really tell you where you're going to be happy for 4 years, receive the best medical training you possibly can, and get out of it with minimal debt - it's a question of which of these factors is most important to you, and how you weight them against one another - so nobody can tell you "how" to choose.

 

[CTSballer11]

Well here's the thing - (first off, I love that I got such a response from this. . . ) I DO agree that it's potential that, in the end, matters (as exemplified so well by the JH CVS chief). Funnily enough, Prowler, if I got into UW and Harvard I'd damn well choose UW first. I just don't believe that ranking and tradition of a school have the complete lack of effect that some would love to believe. . . antihero, of COURSE I won't say that in an interview - what, am I completely deranged? And no, before you all make some sort of crazy judgement, I'm not a future plastic surgeon/dermatologist, I just felt like pointing out a different perspective. Rose-colored glasses may feel nice for a while, but there remains a reason that some schools have are in the "higher echelon" to the general population while others, while possibly equally or even more respectable in many other ways, remain somewhat less well known. In the end it all falls to what's important to you: if connections and prestige matter, go for the Ivies, if location matters more, go for the climates you love, if expense is your number one concern, stick with state schools. Nobody can really tell you where you're going to be happy for 4 years, receive the best medical training you possibly can, and get out of it with minimal debt - it's a question of which of these factors is most important to you, and how you weight them against one another - so nobody can tell you "how" to choose.

I like the point you made. "I DO agree that it's potential that, in the end, matters (as exemplified so well by the JH CVS chief)." How, the guyu went to kentucky? Explain.

 

[LJDHC05]

Most Joe Patients also think that anyone who wears a white coat is a doctor. If they can't distinguish the attending from the resident from the intern from the medical student, the couldn't care less where you went to medical school.

I dont even wear a coat and I've been mistaken for a doctor. They assume as long as you're not waiting in a waiting room, wearing an ID badge and are holding a chart in your hand that you're a doctor.

And to weigh in on the matter at hand, no matter what school you personally go to, you still get the letters MD or DO after your name. If you go to Harvard and graduate last in your class, you still graduated last in your class with an MD, the same as if you went to a State or Caribbean school. Getting in has to do with your personal performance, as does residency selection and faculty appointments. If you share an academic connection with someone at the top, you may find yourself helped up the food chain but if you're a good doobie, dont kill patients, dont make a ruckus, suck up to the right people and publish enough to keep the administration happy, you'll be fine.

And who wants to spend their time doing microderm abraisions for yuppies anyway; it's on about the same level as proctology for me (both deal with too many a$$holes for my taste).

And as far as princeton review and USNews rankings are concerned, I have a theory that the schools and the publications are in kahoots and that the school that pays the most money gets ranked #1 and every other school gets ranked randomly. And then when we apply to the USNews top 20 schools, both the publication and the school get our money and we're left here broke and holding a stack of 19 rejection letters and a waitlist at #20.

 

[sunnyjohn]

.....I dont even wear a coat and I've been mistaken for a doctor. They assume as long as you're not waiting in a waiting room, wearing an ID badge and are holding a chart in your hand that you're a doctor.
.......

And as far as princeton review and USNews rankings are concerned, I have a theory that the schools and the publications are in kahoots and that the school that pays the most money gets ranked #1 and every other school gets ranked randomly. And then when we apply to the USNews top 20 schools, both the publication and the school get our money and we're left here broke and holding a stack of 19 rejection letters and a waitlist at #20.

Haha. 'FUR REAL!'