Time to be thankful you are in pathology

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sohsie

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Dear all,

Its holiday time! While Christmas and New Year's are not holidays to me personally, they are holidays in terms of work. Two 4-day weekends, back to back (UCLA gets two weekdays off for Christmas and New Years every year)!

Nothing like 2 4-day weekends to be thankful that I am in pathology. Does it get any better than that? Well, at least in the medical world :laugh:

Its times like this that Im glad I didnt go into internal medicine like I originally planned. 👍
 
Amen! I'm thankful to get 9 days off...vacation as of Friday 5 pm baby!

Yeah, I'm glad I didn't go into IM either like originally planned. I'd hate to be getting admits from the ER during the holiday!
Dear all,

Its holiday time! While Christmas and New Year's are not holidays to me personally, they are holidays in terms of work. Two 4-day weekends, back to back (UCLA gets two weekdays off for Christmas and New Years every year)!

Nothing like 2 4-day weekends to be thankful that I am in pathology. Does it get any better than that? Well, at least in the medical world :laugh:

Its times like this that Im glad I didnt go into internal medicine like I originally planned. 👍
 
Ah, the joys of CP... every evening as I'm heading out to the parking garage, I pass the scowling surgeons and the zombie-faced IM guys still scuttling around the hospital, and I give thanks for being a path resident. 👍
 
Dear all,

Its holiday time! While Christmas and New Year's are not holidays to me personally, they are holidays in terms of work. Two 4-day weekends, back to back (UCLA gets two weekdays off for Christmas and New Years every year)!

Nothing like 2 4-day weekends to be thankful that I am in pathology. Does it get any better than that? Well, at least in the medical world :laugh:

Its times like this that Im glad I didnt go into internal medicine like I originally planned. 👍


But that's academics. Those in private practice slave away every day except jan 1, memorial day, july 4, labor day, thansgiving, xmas. Every other day for profit hospitals and doctors don't operate are days of lost revenue
 
Dear all,

Its holiday time! While Christmas and New Year's are not holidays to me personally, they are holidays in terms of work.

I'm sorry if this isn't appropriate to ask here, but you brought it up and I am a nosey person. 😀 Why don't you consider New Year's Day a holiday? I didn't know it had religious or cultural attachments if those are your reasons... Sorry if this is my being small minded and clueless... but really, you can't celebrate New Year's Day?? 😕 😕 😕
 
I don't "celebrate" New years day either. I think it's silly. It's an arbitrary turnover of the calendar. Of course, some could argue that any holiday is basically arbitrary, but New Years is the most arbitrary of all.

For people who need an excuse to get drunk, it's a great holiday. Or for those people who like to pretend they don't enjoy drinking but actually do. Or those people whose idea of a good time is standing in a crowd and yelling "Whoo hoo" (or whatever) at designated times. I never consider New Years a great holiday, it's a bit of a mournful day (unless it's on a friday or saturday) because the next day is the official back to work for many months day. I will NEVER understand people who do stuff like spend hours and hours traipsing to a place like Times Square and standing with thousands of other people to watch a stupid crystal ball fall to a designated level. Although I should say they are probably more sane than people who watch it on tv. I admit I watched it a couple of years ago, but that was only to see how much aphasia Dick Clark had after his stroke.

How is one supposed to "celebrate" New Years day? Putting up a new calendar? Practicing writing out "2008"? If that's your idea of fun, well gee whiz enjoy it! Some *****s who live near me have the idea that you're supposed to shoot off guns into the air at the stroke of midnight.

I must admit, I do enjoy a part of New Years. Usually I am in bed before midnight on 31st, so am up early, and am usually the only one.
 
I don't "celebrate" New years day either. I think it's silly. It's an arbitrary turnover of the calendar. Of course, some could argue that any holiday is basically arbitrary, but New Years is the most arbitrary of all.

For people who need an excuse to get drunk, it's a great holiday. Or for those people who like to pretend they don't enjoy drinking but actually do. Or those people whose idea of a good time is standing in a crowd and yelling "Whoo hoo" (or whatever) at designated times. I never consider New Years a great holiday, it's a bit of a mournful day (unless it's on a friday or saturday) because the next day is the official back to work for many months day. I will NEVER understand people who do stuff like spend hours and hours traipsing to a place like Times Square and standing with thousands of other people to watch a stupid crystal ball fall to a designated level. Although I should say they are probably more sane than people who watch it on tv. I admit I watched it a couple of years ago, but that was only to see how much aphasia Dick Clark had after his stroke.

How is one supposed to "celebrate" New Years day? Putting up a new calendar? Practicing writing out "2008"? If that's your idea of fun, well gee whiz enjoy it! Some *****s who live near me have the idea that you're supposed to shoot off guns into the air at the stroke of midnight.

I must admit, I do enjoy a part of New Years. Usually I am in bed before midnight on 31st, so am up early, and am usually the only one.

sounds depressing... I almost want to whip out my SIGECAPS.

By all means celebrate!! Enjoy life!! there is life outside of work! there is much to be happy for.
 
sounds depressing... I almost want to whip out my SIGECAPS.

By all means celebrate!! Enjoy life!! there is life outside of work! there is much to be happy for.

You misunderstand. I am very happy 365 days of the year, unlike others who only seem to be happy on holidays. What's depressing to me are people who "celebrate" New Years. That's no fun at all. New Years is boring. Drink something, kiss a stranger, drink something else, watch a ball drop, shout hooray, drink some more, dance to loud music, fall asleep on floor, wake up with headache, blah blah blah. BORING.
 
You misunderstand. I am very happy 365 days of the year, unlike others who only seem to be happy on holidays. What's depressing to me are people who "celebrate" New Years. That's no fun at all. New Years is boring. Drink something, kiss a stranger, drink something else, watch a ball drop, shout hooray, drink some more, dance to loud music, fall asleep on floor, wake up with headache, blah blah blah. BORING.


This may be me going out on a limb here..... but you don't get many New Year's Eve party/get together invites do you?? LOL! KIDDING! only KIDDING! 🙂 I can totally understand why for the past few years you cherish your sleep 😴 when you can. Believe me, I have an all new respect for sleep these days! haha

I do have something to say in response to your question/comments about New Year's Day celebrations but I'm going to wait for the OP to hopefully post something in regards to my nosey little questions. 🙂 😉
 
This may be me going out on a limb here..... but you don't get many New Year's Eve party/get together invites do you?? LOL! KIDDING! only KIDDING! 🙂 I can totally understand why for the past few years you cherish your sleep 😴 when you can. Believe me, I have an all new respect for sleep these days! haha

I do have something to say in response to your question/comments about New Year's Day celebrations but I'm going to wait for the OP to hopefully post something in regards to my nosey little questions. 🙂 😉

Its not a holiday for me because
1) Part of its roots as a holiday is that it marks the circumcision of Jesus (If Jesus's birth is commemerated on December 25, then January 1 would be his circumsion day. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Circumcision ). Since I am not a Christian, it is not a holiday for me.
2) For most people, it is just an arbitrary day to get drunk and party. I have nothing against letting loose, but to commemorate a specific day whose sole purpose is to engage in the animalistic without any purpose just doesn't attract me.

I have nothing against others celebrating New Year's Day. Enjoy! It just isn't my cup of tea.
 
Its not a holiday for me because
1) Part of its [Jan 1] roots as a holiday is that it marks the circumcision of Jesus (If Jesus's birth is commemerated on December 25, then January 1 would be his circumsion day. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Circumcision )...


But, Wikipedia is citing an explanation based entirely on rabbinic midrash. Historically, the reason why Christmas comes a week before Jan 1 has nothing at all to do with the circumcision of anybody. The first month, January, actually is named for the Roman god, Janus. December 25 was a festival long before the advent of Christianity. It was the birthday of Osirus (an Egyptian god of the underworld, associated with the planet Saturn, which was thought to be the Sun of the night), and the birthday of Mithras, a solar eastern god whose cult was popular among Roman soldiers. It had these associations because it was 3 days after the winter solstice. Thus, it was a celebration of the return of the Sun, the beginning of the lengthening of days. Some suspect that Chanuka also had winter soltice affiliations, coming on the 25th day of the month that since the Babylonian Exile has been called Kislev (what it was called in pre-exillic times is unknown). Interestingly, in relation to this, the leading candle on the chanukia (the 9-branched candelabra used on chanuka) is known as Shammash, which was a Canaanite and Mesopotamian Sun god. This suggests that Chanuka and Christmas both have pagan origins. If so, it would explain why the rabbis of the early Talmudic period were eager to add their own myths to the story of Jesus. For any criticism of the historical claims of the Jesus story would bring into question several Jewish claims regarding their own holidays, which by that time had been given a variety of monotheistic explanations for their origins.
 
But, Wikipedia is citing an explanation based entirely on rabbinic midrash. Historically, the reason why Christmas comes a week before Jan 1 has nothing at all to do with the circumcision of anybody. The first month, January, actually is named for the Roman god, Janus. December 25 was a festival long before the advent of Christianity. It was the birthday of Osirus (an Egyptian god of the underworld, associated with the planet Saturn, which was thought to be the Sun of the night), and the birthday of Mithras, a solar eastern god whose cult was popular among Roman soldiers. It had these associations because it was 3 days after the winter solstice. Thus, it was a celebration of the return of the Sun, the beginning of the lengthening of days. Some suspect that Chanuka also had winter soltice affiliations, coming on the 25th day of the month that since the Babylonian Exile has been called Kislev (what it was called in pre-exillic times is unknown). Interestingly, in relation to this, the leading candle on the chanukia (the 9-branched candelabra used on chanuka) is known as Shammash, which was a Canaanite and Mesopotamian Sun god. This suggests that Chanuka and Christmas both have pagan origins. If so, it would explain why the rabbis of the early Talmudic period were eager to add their own myths to the story of Jesus. For any criticism of the historical claims of the Jesus story would bring into question several Jewish claims regarding their own holidays, which by that time had been given a variety of monotheistic explanations for their origins.

I will write a longer post later this weekend answering these claims. Quickly though, Judaism has never tried to defend the historical claims of the Jesus story. If anything, what few Talmudic accounts that were not censored dispute this story in many respects. And there is certainly no concern that if Christian holidays are tied to pagan ones, than so will Jewish ones. The two have nothing to do with each other.
 
Yeah, New Years is just an excuse to party...other than that, it's just another day.
 
Its not a holiday for me because
1) Part of its roots as a holiday is that it marks the circumcision of Jesus (If Jesus's birth is commemerated on December 25, then January 1 would be his circumsion day. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Circumcision ). Since I am not a Christian, it is not a holiday for me.
2) For most people, it is just an arbitrary day to get drunk and party. I have nothing against letting loose, but to commemorate a specific day whose sole purpose is to engage in the animalistic without any purpose just doesn't attract me.

I have nothing against others celebrating New Year's Day. Enjoy! It just isn't my cup of tea.

First off thanks for getting back to me! 👍 Honestly, I have never in my life heard that New Year’s Day had anything to do what so ever with the celebration of the birth of our Lord Jesus! I’m going to read more about those thoughts. Thank you! 😀

Secondly, where in the heck is it that you guys live!?!?😱 I’m from a community where New Year’s Day is about celebrating a safe and blessed ending to last year and contemplating goals and hopes for the New Year!! We do that by inviting friends and family over to our home on New Year’s Day for lunch or dinner with great food and of course black-eyed peas! We come together to talk about our last year and the year ahead for our families and the world we live in. It’s about cherishing life and noting we have made it another year in this wonderful world. It’s a happy and exciting day that my family/friends and I truly look forward to.

If you think about it you might find a lot of purpose in that day! Do you ever count the time and wish you make it though the year and on to the next for personal or work/school reasons? Then you should be grateful that New Year's Day comes around! I live in the MS3 world, and couldn't be happier to see an end to 2007 and welcome 2008!

Although there might be champagne at the stroke of midnight, it’s defiantly NOT about getting blitzed and kissing strangers. :barf:
 
You don't need New Years to do any of that though. In my past, New Years has never been a great time for getting together, everyone has been heading back home or getting ready to go back to work. Christmas and Thanksgiving are family times.

You also don't need New Years to make resolutions or other garbage like that. If something in your life needs changing, change it. If you want to set a goal for yourself, then set it. Don't wait for a certain calendar date to start going towards that goal, because you're likely going to be doomed to failure (as the goal is not as important to you as one that you would just get going on). If you want to have champagne on January 16th, have it on january 16th. You'll probably enjoy it more because it's more "spontaneous" and less contrived. As for black eyed peas, blecch. Gross.

Every day for me is about cherishing life. New Years is sometimes a break from that so I can get pissy about the world and how superficial it is (because New Years is an extremely superficial holiday). Come 1/2 I can get back to being amused at the world and how people get stressed over extremely minor things and how they have already put their "resolutions" on the back burner because something else came up.

I admit it will be nice to have that tuesday off this year though. But hey, everyone should celebrate the holiday how they want to, don't worry about what other people say or do so much (especially me).

Coming in about 6 weeks: My similar feelings on Valentine's Day and how doing something romantic for your special someone on February 10th (or any other day) is far more romantic than doing something on February 14th.
 
But, Wikipedia is citing an explanation based entirely on rabbinic midrash. Historically, the reason why Christmas comes a week before Jan 1 has nothing at all to do with the circumcision of anybody. The first month, January, actually is named for the Roman god, Janus. December 25 was a festival long before the advent of Christianity. It was the birthday of Osirus (an Egyptian god of the underworld, associated with the planet Saturn, which was thought to be the Sun of the night), and the birthday of Mithras, a solar eastern god whose cult was popular among Roman soldiers. It had these associations because it was 3 days after the winter solstice. Thus, it was a celebration of the return of the Sun, the beginning of the lengthening of days. Some suspect that Chanuka also had winter soltice affiliations, coming on the 25th day of the month that since the Babylonian Exile has been called Kislev (what it was called in pre-exillic times is unknown). Interestingly, in relation to this, the leading candle on the chanukia (the 9-branched candelabra used on chanuka) is known as Shammash, which was a Canaanite and Mesopotamian Sun god. This suggests that Chanuka and Christmas both have pagan origins. If so, it would explain why the rabbis of the early Talmudic period were eager to add their own myths to the story of Jesus. For any criticism of the historical claims of the Jesus story would bring into question several Jewish claims regarding their own holidays, which by that time had been given a variety of monotheistic explanations for their origins.

1) There is no rabbinnic medrash, statement in the Talmud or later commentaries, etc., dealing with the origin of the Gregorian/Julian/whatever New Years Day. No one ever even mentions this day.

2) I mostly agree with your statements about the origins of Christmas and New Year's. I was not clear that I was positing a cause of why some people have a celebration on Jan 1, not why Jan 1 became New Years and a holiday.

3) The conjecture as to the pagan roots of the Chanukah based on the Shammash is 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, absolutely false.

While the Hebrew word for sun (Shemesh) likely has an entymologic relationship to the pagan god Shammash, the Hebrew root Shammash means to serve or to use. Its origin is Aramaic and it was co-opted into Hebrew most likely during or just before the second temple period. The root makes one appearance in the Bible in Daniel, which is mostly written in Aramaic with only the beginning in Hebrew, and refers to thousands of servants.

In the Talmud, the root Shamash is used etremely commonly in words that mean use, service, benefit, etc. The actual word Shamash is used to refer to the server at the Paschal meal in a discussion about laws pertaining to that person. In later literature, the word Shamash is used to refer to the synagogue attendant, and this word is used in this manner in modern times as well.

As for the candle in the menorah (chanukiah) which in modern times is called the Shamash, it originally did not exist when Chanukah was created. Originally, people lit lights for Chanuka, numbering one for each night (actually, this is a super over-simplification, but expounding on this will be tangential), outside their doors. The Talmud states that in times of persecution, when it was not safe to advertise the celebration of Chanuka, the lights would be lit inside the house. In this instance, the Talmud states that one must light an additional light for utility purposes unless they have another fire, such as a torch or fireplace, already in the house (One is not allowed to derive benefit from the light of the Hannukah lights, so this additional light/fire is used instead). The Talmud merely referes to this additional light as just that, an additional light (Ner Aheret). It is not called Shammash. However, the word used to describe its purpose (utility) has, as its root, the root Shammash.

The Shammash of Chanuka does have its roots from the above. The first mention of this is in the Ashkenazic literature, starting in the 13th century. In reference to the above requirement of the additional light inside the house, it ws recorded that among Ashkenazic Jewry, it became accostomed that instead of lighting a completely separate light, they would take the light that was used to light the Chanukkah lights and place that light in an adjacent position. This light is called Shammash, and it is explained in multiple places that the reason it is called this is because it has serviced the Chanuka lights (ie by lighting them) and afterward it is used to serve utilitarian purposes. It then became customary to make this light bigger than the Chanuka lights or to place this light in a position elevated above the Hanuka lights so that if someone were to approach the Chanuka lights to use them as a source of light, which is forbidden, they would gravitate to the bigger or higher light and use that one instead. Interestingly enough, in France in the 14th century or so, the custom was to place this Shammash in a LOWER position, so that it could more fully illuminate a room, since its inherent purpose was utility.

Today, the custom has been universally accepted, amongst Ashkenazic and Sepharadic communities, to have a Shammash and place it in a slightly elevated position.

To sum up, the root shammash was well established to mean to use or to serve long before the concept of the Shammash in Chanuka existed. The Shammash in its original form was just called an "additional light", yet its purpose was described using the root Shammash. Only much later did this become called a Shammash, and those who called it that clearly explain how it got that name.

4) The Syrian-Greek wars which led to the creation of Chanuka stretched over tens of years sometime between 200-100 BCE. This was well into the era of recorded history. There are apochrypha books dealing with Chanuka and it is mentioned in Josephus.

5) There are numerous theories as to how it got established as an 8 day holiday and on 25 of Kislev. I wont go into them, but keep in mind that the war of Chanuka was fought to eject both the Syrian-Greeks and their influence on the Jewish culture. A large part of that influence was to try to force Syrian-Greek paganism onto the Jewish culture. It makes no sense to mark such a holiday by incorporating the very holidays of the culture that was just expelled.

This is completely opposite to Christmas. Christmas was presumably established as part of a campaign to make Christianity more palatable to the pagan masses that the early Christians were trying to convert. Therefore, it makes sense for the early Christians to co-opt an established pagan festival into Christianity in order to convert them.

6) The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar adjusted for the solar seasons by adding a month every few years. Therefore, unlike the 25th of December, which always falls a couple of days after the winter solstice, the 25th of Kislev can fall anywhere from late Novermber to late December.

7) The Hebrew months as currently names are taken from Persian names. In the Bible, the months are simply numbered 1-12 from Nisan, the month in which the Exodus is recorded to have taken place.

8) Finally, once again, the idea that the Talmud has myths about Jesus in order to protect the roots of Judaism is such a completely absurd idea. As far as I know, there was no cadre of history professors in the 4-5th century going around trying to examine the ancient roots of religions at that time.
 
1) There is no rabbinnic medrash, statement in the Talmud or later commentaries, etc., dealing with the origin of the Gregorian/Julian/whatever New Years Day. No one ever even mentions this day.

2) I mostly agree with your statements about the origins of Christmas and New Year's. I was not clear that I was positing a cause of why some people have a celebration on Jan 1, not why Jan 1 became New Years and a holiday.

3) The conjecture as to the pagan roots of the Chanukah based on the Shammash is 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, absolutely false.

While the Hebrew word for sun (Shemesh) likely has an entymologic relationship to the pagan god Shammash, the Hebrew root Shammash means to serve or to use. Its origin is Aramaic and it was co-opted into Hebrew most likely during or just before the second temple period. The root makes one appearance in the Bible in Daniel, which is mostly written in Aramaic with only the beginning in Hebrew, and refers to thousands of servants.

In the Talmud, the root Shamash is used etremely commonly in words that mean use, service, benefit, etc. The actual word Shamash is used to refer to the server at the Paschal meal in a discussion about laws pertaining to that person. In later literature, the word Shamash is used to refer to the synagogue attendant, and this word is used in this manner in modern times as well.

As for the candle in the menorah (chanukiah) which in modern times is called the Shamash, it originally did not exist when Chanukah was created. Originally, people lit lights for Chanuka, numbering one for each night (actually, this is a super over-simplification, but expounding on this will be tangential), outside their doors. The Talmud states that in times of persecution, when it was not safe to advertise the celebration of Chanuka, the lights would be lit inside the house. In this instance, the Talmud states that one must light an additional light for utility purposes unless they have another fire, such as a torch or fireplace, already in the house (One is not allowed to derive benefit from the light of the Hannukah lights, so this additional light/fire is used instead). The Talmud merely referes to this additional light as just that, an additional light (Ner Aheret). It is not called Shammash. However, the word used to describe its purpose (utility) has, as its root, the root Shammash.

The Shammash of Chanuka does have its roots from the above. The first mention of this is in the Ashkenazic literature, starting in the 13th century. In reference to the above requirement of the additional light inside the house, it ws recorded that among Ashkenazic Jewry, it became accostomed that instead of lighting a completely separate light, they would take the light that was used to light the Chanukkah lights and place that light in an adjacent position. This light is called Shammash, and it is explained in multiple places that the reason it is called this is because it has serviced the Chanuka lights (ie by lighting them) and afterward it is used to serve utilitarian purposes. It then became customary to make this light bigger than the Chanuka lights or to place this light in a position elevated above the Hanuka lights so that if someone were to approach the Chanuka lights to use them as a source of light, which is forbidden, they would gravitate to the bigger or higher light and use that one instead. Interestingly enough, in France in the 14th century or so, the custom was to place this Shammash in a LOWER position, so that it could more fully illuminate a room, since its inherent purpose was utility.

Today, the custom has been universally accepted, amongst Ashkenazic and Sepharadic communities, to have a Shammash and place it in a slightly elevated position.

To sum up, the root shammash was well established to mean to use or to serve long before the concept of the Shammash in Chanuka existed. The Shammash in its original form was just called an "additional light", yet its purpose was described using the root Shammash. Only much later did this become called a Shammash, and those who called it that clearly explain how it got that name.

4) The Syrian-Greek wars which led to the creation of Chanuka stretched over tens of years sometime between 200-100 BCE. This was well into the era of recorded history. There are apochrypha books dealing with Chanuka and it is mentioned in Josephus.

5) There are numerous theories as to how it got established as an 8 day holiday and on 25 of Kislev. I wont go into them, but keep in mind that the war of Chanuka was fought to eject both the Syrian-Greeks and their influence on the Jewish culture. A large part of that influence was to try to force Syrian-Greek paganism onto the Jewish culture. It makes no sense to mark such a holiday by incorporating the very holidays of the culture that was just expelled.

This is completely opposite to Christmas. Christmas was presumably established as part of a campaign to make Christianity more palatable to the pagan masses that the early Christians were trying to convert. Therefore, it makes sense for the early Christians to co-opt an established pagan festival into Christianity in order to convert them.

6) The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar adjusted for the solar seasons by adding a month every few years. Therefore, unlike the 25th of December, which always falls a couple of days after the winter solstice, the 25th of Kislev can fall anywhere from late Novermber to late December.

7) The Hebrew months as currently names are taken from Persian names. In the Bible, the months are simply numbered 1-12 from Nisan, the month in which the Exodus is recorded to have taken place.

8) Finally, once again, the idea that the Talmud has myths about Jesus in order to protect the roots of Judaism is such a completely absurd idea. As far as I know, there was no cadre of history professors in the 4-5th century going around trying to examine the ancient roots of religions at that time.

Does this guy know how to party or what?
 
Could we please, just once, have a thread in this forum that doesn't come back around to Jewish theological history? :laugh:
 
I will write a longer post later this weekend answering these claims.

Great; I look forward to the discussion. The following

...what few Talmudic accounts that were not censored dispute this story....

suggests strongly that you are Jewish, with a very strong Jewish education (I do not mean this in a patronizing way, but merely to establish a starting point, to avoid unnecessary typing, by you or me, of voluminous background information). While I am by no means a Talmudic scholar, I think I'm familiar with the accounts that you're citing. You're referring to the discussions of "Yeishu ben Pandeira" (a.k.a. "Yeishu ha-Notzri"), and "Yeishu ben Stada", mentioned within Tosefta and Baraita writings. Is that right? From what I gather, from people who have put a great deal of study into these passages, and even from my own, albeit sloppy, comprehension of written Aramaic, one can not be very sure that these two Jesuses are based on the same individual. Any historian of the Mishnaic and post-Mishnaic period will tell you that the name Yeishu -short for Yehoshua- was about as common as the name John or George in English speaking countries of our own period. There was a Jesus on every corner.

Judaism has never tried to defend the historical claims of the Jesus story.

Of course not. Judaism as a whole has never tried to defend the specific historical claims of the Jesus story of the NT. But, by your very citation of the tradition of January 1st being celebrated originally to commemorate the brit milah of Jesus, proves strongly that Judaism (at least Talmudic Judaism as it has developed in the centuries since the advent of Christianity) takes the existence of a distinct 1st century C.E. individual corresponding in some way to the Christian Jesus as an historical fact. In terms of historicity, they treat him the same that we treat Julius Caesar or Cleopatra, or others of the period whose historicity is not at all in question. In my view, this is a type of defense of Christianity. Still, it is not universal. There are some Rabbinic Jews, even of the Orthodox tradition, who do not talk about Jesus with the assumption that he's historical.


And there is certainly no concern that if Christian holidays are tied to pagan ones, than so will Jewish ones. The two have nothing to do with each other.

No, not now. At least in recent memory, and perhaps never (depending on one's view of the various conquests of and struggles by ancient Jews), pagans have not been a problem for Jews. But during the formative centuries of Talmudic Judaism, memories of pre-monotheistic Jewish/Israelite traditions were real.
 
Wow, it'll take a long time to address all of this. If I miss something that you think is important, just remind me later. May go through this little by little.

1) There is no rabbinnic medrash, statement in the Talmud or later commentaries, etc., dealing with the origin of the Gregorian/Julian/whatever New Years Day. No one ever even mentions this day.

I'm using the term midrash in the general sense. When rabbis say something about unknown events of the past that nobody really knows, and when they start teaching it in the same way in Jewish day schools across the world, it amounts to midrash. Sometimes, what they are saying makes sense. In this case, it is rabbinic babble, with no basis in reality. Nor, btw, is it necessary as a means of dissuading Jews from celebrating January 1st. All that it does is add some perceived measure of credibility to the claim of the existence of an historical Jesus. It does this for the same reason that the Qur'an referring to Jesus as an established historical figure does it; because it is a claim made by leaders of a non-Christian religion.
 
While the Hebrew word for sun (Shemesh) likely has an entymologic relationship to the pagan god Shammash...

Likely??? Are you joking with me? Sohsie, in the ancient Near East, there was little distinction between the Sun and the Sun-god, Shammash. This is supported by writings from over 3,000 tablets excavated at Ras Shamra (Ugarit), and over 30,000 tablets excavated Nineveh and Calah. While I am quick to admit that my Aramaic is not good, I do have a fairly respectable reading knowledge of Akkadian and central coast Phonecian (which is thought to be closely connected with pre-exilic Hebrew. I have read the primary sources, and you should too. There are some very good translations for many of them. And there are some very good papers by experts in the field. Among historians of the ANE, there is virtually no disagreement on the point that Shammash was, and controled, the Shemmesh. Nor do we know how the word for Sun was pronounced. Even people educated purely in the rabbinic tradition know very well that the the ancient texts are written without nikudot (vowel sounds). The word for the Sun and the sun-god is written s-m-s. The word itself is a shoresh that is never extended for either word. It could be pronounced shemmesh, or shammash. In the Phoenician, the vowel situation is a little bit different, beginning around 900-800 BCE, because they start using some letters as vowels, especially in the west in the Punic language. But even then, the relation between the Sun and the sun-god is the same.[/quote]

the Hebrew root Shammash means to serve or to use. Its origin is Aramaic and it was co-opted into Hebrew most likely during or just before the second temple period. The root makes one appearance in the Bible in Daniel, which is mostly written in Aramaic with only the beginning in Hebrew, and refers to thousands of servants.

In the Talmud, the root Shamash is used etremely commonly in words that mean use, service, benefit, etc. The actual word Shamash is used to refer to the server at the Paschal meal in a discussion about laws pertaining to that person. In later literature, the word Shamash is used to refer to the synagogue attendant, and this word is used in this manner in modern times as well.

I wrote that the Shammash of the chanukia could have had an origin in the sun-god, Shammash prior to the Talmudic period. I guess I have to make it clear to you that I mean also prior to the writing of Daniel. Surely, writers who were monotheistic writing in Helenistic times, and later in Talmudic times, but who also were attached to a tradition regarding Shammash having a role in Judaism (and I can cite you numerous cases of solar symbology in the pre-exilic biblical texts) would need to come up with an alternate story for how Shammash gained such importance. Their answer: it is not a god, but just a word.

I have to go. I'm writing this in a coffee shop, which the Christians are about to close 🙁.
 
Let me start by saying that, IMO, we don't really disagree much on most of the discussion here (and yes, Im Jewish (it can be discerned from other posts if you search carefully enough), and no, I don't mind that you figured that out). Now, where we do disagree.


Great; I look forward to the discussion. The following



suggests strongly that you are Jewish, with a very strong Jewish education (I do not mean this in a patronizing way, but merely to establish a starting point, to avoid unnecessary typing, by you or me, of voluminous background information). While I am by no means a Talmudic scholar, I think I'm familiar with the accounts that you're citing. You're referring to the discussions of "Yeishu ben Pandeira" (a.k.a. "Yeishu ha-Notzri"), and "Yeishu ben Stada", mentioned within Tosefta and Baraita writings. Is that right? From what I gather, from people who have put a great deal of study into these passages, and even from my own, albeit sloppy, comprehension of written Aramaic, one can not be very sure that these two Jesuses are based on the same individual. Any historian of the Mishnaic and post-Mishnaic period will tell you that the name Yeishu -short for Yehoshua- was about as common as the name John or George in English speaking countries of our own period. There was a Jesus on every corner.

I agree with all of this. It can only be speculated whether each of these instances refers to the "historical Jesus" or not, and is the topic of tons of debate.


Of course not. Judaism as a whole has never tried to defend the specific historical claims of the Jesus story of the NT. But, by your very citation of the tradition of January 1st being celebrated originally to commemorate the brit milah of Jesus, proves strongly that Judaism (at least Talmudic Judaism as it has developed in the centuries since the advent of Christianity) takes the existence of a distinct 1st century C.E. individual corresponding in some way to the Christian Jesus as an historical fact. In terms of historicity, they treat him the same that we treat Julius Caesar or Cleopatra, or others of the period whose historicity is not at all in question. In my view, this is a type of defense of Christianity. Still, it is not universal. There are some Rabbinic Jews, even of the Orthodox tradition, who do not talk about Jesus with the assumption that he's historical.

Thats quite a stretch. PROVES STRONGLY?!? I haven't fathomed how that was even inferred.

As I already stated, I was unclear when I tied the Feast of the Circumcision to Jan 1 in terms of its connection. I did not mean to imply (although clearly I did) that an ORIGINAL cause for celebrating Jan 1 was because it was seen as the day of Jesus's circumcision. Clearly, that is a much, much later theme that was tied to the day after it and Christmas was established and became accepted.

Here is an analogy. Baseball bats were invented to play a game. However, many people use them as an instrument of violence. Were baseball bats originally made to beat people up with? No. Is is a common function of baseball bats? Yes. Does the fact that I recognize its use to beat up other people mean I believe that that what bats were invented for? No.

Clearly, there is such a thing as the Feast of the Circumcision, and it isn't a Jewish invention. Just google it and youll find tons of info about it. Here is one example from a Catholic site which sites lots of early occurences of this feast:
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/c/circumcision,feast_of.html

The fact that I cited this does NOT make it medrash. It isnt in the Talmud or any medrashim, yet clearly it has existed for a long time. The fact that I cited it does not at all mean that I am propping up Christianity.

Are there teachers in Hebrew school who teach it as the original reason for the holiday? I have no doubt the answer is yes. Does that make it official medrash? Emphatically no. They are simply mistaken.

Personally, I do not have a strong opinion whether Jesus existed and if so, when he lived or anything about his life. I disagree with the basic premises of Christianity as it relates to its conception of God, so whether or not Jesus actually existed is to me inconsequential.

No, not now. At least in recent memory, and perhaps never (depending on one's view of the various conquests of and struggles by ancient Jews), pagans have not been a problem for Jews. But during the formative centuries of Talmudic Judaism, memories of pre-monotheistic Jewish/Israelite traditions were real.

I agree with this. However, it doesnt change the fact that the Talmud never propped up Christianity, nor did it have any motive to do so.
 
Likely??? Are you joking with me? Sohsie, in the ancient Near East, there was little distinction between the Sun and the Sun-god, Shammash. This is supported by writings from over 3,000 tablets excavated at Ras Shamra (Ugarit), and over 30,000 tablets excavated Nineveh and Calah. While I am quick to admit that my Aramaic is not good, I do have a fairly respectable reading knowledge of Akkadian and central coast Phonecian (which is thought to be closely connected with pre-exilic Hebrew. I have read the primary sources, and you should too. There are some very good translations for many of them. And there are some very good papers by experts in the field. Among historians of the ANE, there is virtually no disagreement on the point that Shammash was, and controled, the Shemmesh. Nor do we know how the word for Sun was pronounced. Even people educated purely in the rabbinic tradition know very well that the the ancient texts are written without nikudot (vowel sounds). The word for the Sun and the sun-god is written s-m-s. The word itself is a shoresh that is never extended for either word. It could be pronounced shemmesh, or shammash. In the Phoenician, the vowel situation is a little bit different, beginning around 900-800 BCE, because they start using some letters as vowels, especially in the west in the Punic language. But even then, the relation between the Sun and the sun-god is the same.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe I should have used a stronger term. Likely = I am convinced it is correct but I didn't research it to see if anyone disagrees.

I wrote that the Shammash of the chanukia could have had an origin in the sun-god, Shammash prior to the Talmudic period. I guess I have to make it clear to you that I mean also prior to the writing of Daniel. Surely, writers who were monotheistic writing in Helenistic times, and later in Talmudic times, but who also were attached to a tradition regarding Shammash having a role in Judaism (and I can cite you numerous cases of solar symbology in the pre-exilic biblical texts) would need to come up with an alternate story for how Shammash gained such importance. Their answer: it is not a god, but just a word.

I have to go. I'm writing this in a coffee shop, which the Christians are about to close 🙁.

You know that there are many words with the same three letter shoresh that have a different meaning. I dont think my argument was written in the clearest way, so Ill put it in a few sentences.

1) There was NO Shammash in the original formulation of the laws of Chanuka. You simply lit one candle per day WITHOUT any additional candle
2) The term Shammash as it relates to Chanuka is NOT found in ANY Jewish literature until the 12th century, and is not found in Sephardic literature until much later.
3) However, an Aramaic root-word co-opted into Hebrew with the same root letters as sun, S-M-S, is literally all over the Talmud and subsequent Jewish literature up to its use in modern Hebrew (it is an EXTREMELY common root-word), and its meaning is to use, serve, etc (just look it up in a Jastrow dictionary).
4) Furthermore, The Talmud does have recorded the exact word Shammash, but referring to the server at the Paschal meal, which clearly has nothing to do with a sun-god, the sun, or light.
5) The Talmud states that when people stopped lighting the Chanuka lights outside because it became dangerous, an additional light was mandated ONLY when lighting in the house. This light was called "Another light", not shammash. Specifically, it says "Rava said 'It is necessary to have another light to use its light, but if there is a large fire (ie a torch), there is no need."
The word "to use" here is "L'Hishtamesh", whose root is S-M-S (For others who might be reading this, trust me, that is the root. It would take me way too long to explain the grammatical rules involved).
6) The original sources who do first use the word Shammash, which again doesnt happen until the 12th century, draw from the previously cited source and explain exactly why it is called that.

So, either, 1) The Shammash is a late addition to the Chanuka service and it called the Shammash because it serves the chanuka lights and it serves the person since they cannot use the chanuka lights, as is consistent with the long existing word of the same root and the concurrent use of the word to refer to the Paschal meal servant and the synagogue sextant (among others), and it only coincidentally has the same root letters as the word sun (this would be far from the only example in Hebrew) or 2) The Shammash is really originally from the sun-god, and therefore the most prominant part of the Chanuka menorah, but there was a conspiracy to completely erase its existence from the Talmud and all Jewish literature until the middle ages, erase its existence in the original formulation of the Chanuka service, completely downplay its importance into an adjunct, erase its existence from Sephardic literature until the 15th century, and simultaneously propogate the existence of a word with the root S-M-S meaning to serve or use so that this word is all over Hebrew and Aramaic literature from the pre-Talmudic era up to its common usage in modern Hebrew.

Let me use another method to stress how unimportant the Shammash is in the Chanuka service.
1) It isnt mentioned at all in the Talmud
2) It isnt mentioned at all in Maimonides Code of Jewish Law (He only quotes the above Talmudic passage)
3) It isnt mentioned at all in the Code of Jewish Law by R Joseph Caro, the most (He also only quotes the Talmudic passage. It is mentioned in the glosses by R Moshe Isserles.)

The word for sun in Hebrew does have the same root letters (S-M-S), but the pronunciation is different (Shemesh). Yes, the vowels in Hebrew is not written, but no one argues about the pronunciation of this word. Every use of the word Shammash as a noun in Jewish literature means a servant. Every single one.

Yes, its a coincidence. Thats all it is. It sounds good until you actually look into it.
 
Too much to digest :laugh: ...

For those who celebrate Christmas though, Merry Christmas!
 
Is New Years Day any less arbitrary then Medical School Graduation? You're not ready to practice medicine at that time. You could get your MD after your internship, after 3rd year of med school. during the summer after 4th year...or after residency... Right when you pass step 3 perhaps... basically numerous other days that make more sense to have the title Dr attached to your name besides the actual day that you get it.

But did I celebrate the day I got it? You bet I did!
 
...Thats quite a stretch. PROVES STRONGLY?!? I haven't fathomed how that was even inferred....I did not mean to imply (although clearly I did) that an ORIGINAL cause for celebrating Jan 1 was because it was seen as the day of Jesus's circumcision. Clearly, that is a much, much later theme that was tied to the day after it and Christmas was established and became accepted. Here is an analogy. Baseball bats...

OK👍 I misunderstood your intended implication.

Clearly, there is such a thing as the Feast of the Circumcision, and it isn't a Jewish invention. Just google it and youll find tons of info about it. Here is one example from a Catholic site which sites lots of early occurences of this feast:
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/c/circumcision,feast_of.html

The fact that I cited this does NOT make it medrash. It isnt in the Talmud or any medrashim,...

OK. Thanks for the information. And understand whyI thought this: I used to hear it so many times from rabbis, at Jewish day school, at summer camp --any place where the subject New Years day came up in discussion. But, I had never heard it from Christians themselves. When later I learned about the religions in the Roman Empire prior to Christianity and about how uncertain the origins of Christianity were to historians, I deduced that the rabbis came up with the circumcision tale. So, actually, it is Christian "midrash", not Jewish.

Now, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that (because of the above) a non-Christian who celebrates Jan 1st as the new year is, unwittingly, celebrating a Christian holiday? I suppose you could be right about that. But then, by the same logic, should we not avoid even using the Christian calendar in the first place? How it could be avoided, I don't know. As you're probably aware, even Israel uses it, not just when dealing with Christian countries, but to conduct business and most secular activities inside Israel. And, maybe it's because of this that many Jewish Israelis go out on Dec 31st, to celebrate "Sylvester".

Personally, I do not have a strong opinion whether Jesus existed and if so, when he lived or anything about his life. I disagree with the basic premises of Christianity as it relates to its conception of God, so whether or not Jesus actually existed is to me inconsequential.

Well, for me, it tends to become consequential when certain outspoken and hyperecumenical rabbis, such as Michael Lerner, start writing articles proposing that Jesus be considered among the nevi'im (prophets) of Judaism (Not that it matters to me whether the nevi'im of ancient Israel and Judah are all based on historical figures. Like in Greek literature, in Judaism, often those biblical characters with more ambiguous historicity protagonize stories that generate more useful discussions of morality issues, and also make more enjoyable reading). Or, for that matter, when Senator Lieberman, in pandering to the so-called "Christian Zionists" (some of whom propose instigating war between Israel and Iran, causing a nuclear holocaust, specifically to bring Jesus back to Earth), decides to quote verses from the Book of Matthew and to speak about the snake of the Garden of Eden in Christian terms.
 
Maybe I should have used a stronger term. Likely = I am convinced it is correct but I didn't research it to see if anyone disagrees.



You know that there are many words with the same three letter shoresh that have a different meaning. I dont think my argument was written in the clearest way, so Ill put it in a few sentences.

1) There was NO Shammash in the original formulation of the laws of Chanuka. You simply lit one candle per day WITHOUT any additional candle
2) The term Shammash as it relates to Chanuka is NOT found in ANY Jewish literature until the 12th century, and is not found in Sephardic literature until much later.
3) However, an Aramaic root-word co-opted into Hebrew with the same root letters as sun, S-M-S, is literally all over the Talmud and subsequent Jewish literature up to its use in modern Hebrew (it is an EXTREMELY common root-word), and its meaning is to use, serve, etc (just look it up in a Jastrow dictionary).
4) Furthermore, The Talmud does have recorded the exact word Shammash, but referring to the server at the Paschal meal, which clearly has nothing to do with a sun-god, the sun, or light.
5) The Talmud states that when people stopped lighting the Chanuka lights outside because it became dangerous, an additional light was mandated ONLY when lighting in the house. This light was called "Another light", not shammash. Specifically, it says "Rava said 'It is necessary to have another light to use its light, but if there is a large fire (ie a torch), there is no need."
The word "to use" here is "L'Hishtamesh", whose root is S-M-S (For others who might be reading this, trust me, that is the root. It would take me way too long to explain the grammatical rules involved).
6) The original sources who do first use the word Shammash, which again doesnt happen until the 12th century, draw from the previously cited source and explain exactly why it is called that.

So, either, 1) The Shammash is a late addition to the Chanuka service and it called the Shammash because it serves the chanuka lights and it serves the person since they cannot use the chanuka lights, as is consistent with the long existing word of the same root and the concurrent use of the word to refer to the Paschal meal servant and the synagogue sextant (among others), and it only coincidentally has the same root letters as the word sun (this would be far from the only example in Hebrew) or 2) The Shammash is really originally from the sun-god, and therefore the most prominant part of the Chanuka menorah, but there was a conspiracy to completely erase its existence from the Talmud and all Jewish literature until the middle ages, erase its existence in the original formulation of the Chanuka service, completely downplay its importance into an adjunct, erase its existence from Sephardic literature until the 15th century, and simultaneously propogate the existence of a word with the root S-M-S meaning to serve or use so that this word is all over Hebrew and Aramaic literature from the pre-Talmudic era up to its common usage in modern Hebrew.

Let me use another method to stress how unimportant the Shammash is in the Chanuka service.
1) It isnt mentioned at all in the Talmud
2) It isnt mentioned at all in Maimonides Code of Jewish Law (He only quotes the above Talmudic passage)
3) It isnt mentioned at all in the Code of Jewish Law by R Joseph Caro, the most (He also only quotes the Talmudic passage. It is mentioned in the glosses by R Moshe Isserles.)

The word for sun in Hebrew does have the same root letters (S-M-S), but the pronunciation is different (Shemesh). Yes, the vowels in Hebrew is not written, but no one argues about the pronunciation of this word. Every use of the word Shammash as a noun in Jewish literature means a servant. Every single one.

I don't have a major disagreement with any of these points specifically. But I think it is important that the shape of the chanukia as it evolved eventually is like the Menorah of the ancient period, with a branch in the center, and the others branching outward from it. It has 2 extra branches. I can't prove that the shammash was Shammash, but I can say that during the Middle Ages all sorts of celestial and to some extent non-monotheistic cults were re-emerging within Judaism, in opposition to the purely monotheistic rabbis. I know this is true, and not neo-pagan babble, because of certain traditions passed down through one branch of my family. So I still think that the way that s-m-s got it's non-solar meaning in Aramaic and Hebrew could have something to do with beliefs stemming ultimately from ancient Canaan. It does not require any intentional actions to suppress Sun-worship in Talmudic times.

In any case, this issue was not central to the point I raised in the beginning about not celebrating Jan 1st. That fact is, I do light a chanukia every year. And when I do, sometimes I think about Shammash, meaning and ancient Jewish/Israelite Sun-god. I'm actually one of those Jews who thinks there are (I mean in the literary, cultural sense) good gods and bad gods, like in ancient Greece. Clearly, Baal was a pretty bad one, but Shammash was pretty good from what I've read. Therefore, the practice ends up being exactly the same are what you probably practice.

As far as New Years goes, I must think about whether I wish to go on celebrating it, or not.
 
You guys should probably take your conversation to PM now. Anytime you get to more than a couple of long quoted direct replies/refutations most others stop paying attention. So let's end it here.
 
You guys should probably take your conversation to PM now. Anytime you get to more than a couple of long quoted direct replies/refutations most others stop paying attention. So let's end it here.

I think we're done 🙂 You can close the thread if you like.
 
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