Time to break SDN

[PathoTurnUp1865]

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Usmle/Comlex is gonna be P/F

 

[watermelon master]

You don't know that yet. It says they are thinking about it.

 

[Terror Billy]

I'm not in medical school yet (starting in the fall), but from snapchat seeing people I know who attended that thing, it looked/sounded like a true circle jerk...is AMA the group for the overly enthusiastic medical students or what?

 

[Treebeard]

Awesome! Time to throw away First Aid and go to the beach.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

I'm not in medical school yet (starting in the fall), but from snapchat seeing people I know who attended that thing, it looked/sounded like a true circle jerk...is AMA the group for the overly enthusiastic medical students or what?

Mostly lib circles.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

1) This is a document from the AMA, who has literally zero decision-making power with regards to scoring of the USMLE or the residency application process

2) All it says is they will talk with the organizations that do have that power to determine if it might be possible to transition to P/F, and if it's reasonable, they will discuss it at another AMA meeting in the future. Nothing is set in stone at this point, they're literally just tossing the idea around because somebody brought it up at a meeting.

This is true but I could see it actually happening due to how many med students end their lives over scores.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

This was an eventful meeting

The AMA also voted to require gun owners to register their weapons.

That’s insane.

 

[Dr. Retractor]

I'm not in medical school yet (starting in the fall), but from snapchat seeing people I know who attended that thing, it looked/sounded like a true circle jerk...is AMA the group for the overly enthusiastic medical students or what?

So I went to an AMA meeting once (one of the big ones) as someone with 0 policy experience and no interest in actually doing anything for the AMA and it seemed like it served a dual purpose of being a forum for people who were passionate about certain topics to bring up resolutions and debate and learn, and also a place for wannabe policymakers from wealthy backgrounds to jerk each other off over light conversation about the perils of socialized medicine and how amazing our healthcare system was before Obamacare.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

This is true but I could see it actually happening due to how many med students end their lives over scores.

Students will just end their lives over BS clinical evaluations, shelf scores, the complete randomness of the match if this happens. Then we'll switch from F/P/HP/H to a Try Again, Great Job, Awesome Job, Amazing Job! system and act like that matters. Med students will end their lives over scores as long as we expect them to put in heroic efforts just to pass when they were expecting to match derm.

The problem is massive competition coupled with poor counseling about how to deal with failure and/or how to have realistic expectations. If student mental health is a concern, schools need to step up to the plate and actually combat it rather than pushing the blame somewhere else.

This is like blaming mass shootings on the most common gun used in mass shootings, outlawing that particular gun, and then acting like it'll all work itself out. The shooters aren't going to stop shooting people. They're just going to use a different gun.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Dear AMA,

Stop spamming my email with very left-wing slanted petitions on a daily basis and other random info. Also, this idea is dumb.

Thanks,

Anatomy

 

[deleted407021]

Dear AMA,

Stop spamming my email with very left-wing slanted petitions on a daily basis and other random info.

Thanks,

Anatomy

Any examples? I don't follow AMA

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Any examples? I don't follow AMA

For starters it seems every few weeks I get one that tells me I need to “quickly take action” (a petition) because people’s lives are at stake and it’s always about how Trump is changing something blah blah. Gun control and universal healthcare are other decently common topics.

All emails have a very liberal slant. It wouldn’t even be that annoying except they try and make it seem like their opinions are representative of every doctor in America or that somehow if I don’t do what the are saying I’m not compassionate.

 

[deleted407021]

For starters it seems every few weeks I get one that tells me I need to “quickly take action” (a petition) because people’s lives are at stake and it’s always about how Trump is changing something blah blah. Gun control and universal healthcare are other decently common topics.

All emails have a very liberal slant. It wouldn’t even be that annoying except they try and make it seem like their opinions are representative of every doctor in America or that somehow if I don’t do what the are saying I’m not compassionate.

Only universal healthcare seems left wing, tbh. I guess gun control is liberal. As a lobby, I just assumed the AMA was liberal and I'm kind of surprised they're supportive of universal coverage because they've historically been opposed.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Only universal healthcare seems left wing, tbh. I guess gun control is liberal. As a lobby, I just assumed the AMA was liberal and I'm kind of surprised they're supportive of universal coverage because they've historically been opposed.

I was just throwing out examples. It’s realky not all bad, but there are definitely more than a few emails that have an obvious tilt one direction.

 

[Oso]

Kind of a senseless thread title ...

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Only universal healthcare seems left wing, tbh. I guess gun control is liberal. As a lobby, I just assumed the AMA was liberal and I'm kind of surprised they're supportive of universal coverage because they've historically been opposed.

They lost a lot of physician support being in favor of universal. A lot of the old timers especially felt it was a move away from protecting physicians. As someone who wouldn't be restructuring my entire life due to these changes, I can see how it would benefit so many people. However, i can also see how lobby groups need a spine if they want support, and they need to represent the interests of physicians at large, putting physicians before anything else. This is why nursing lobbies have been so much more effective. This is all because they represent the interests of nurses. Lobbies aren't supposed to be partisan machines. They are supposed to blindly represent their members.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Students will just end their lives over BS clinical evaluations, shelf scores, the complete randomness of the match if this happens. Then we'll switch from F/P/HP/H to a Try Again, Great Job, Awesome Job, Amazing Job! system and act like that matters. Med students will end their lives over scores as long as we expect them to put in heroic efforts just to pass when they were expecting to match derm.

The problem is massive competition coupled with poor counseling about how to deal with failure and/or how to have realistic expectations. If student mental health is a concern, schools need to step up to the plate and actually combat it rather than pushing the blame somewhere else.

This is like blaming mass shootings on the most common gun used in mass shootings, outlawing that particular gun, and then acting like it'll all work itself out. The shooters aren't going to stop shooting people. They're just going to use a different gun.

Just to add to what I said before, step 1 lets you plan your life as well. At some point you're going to be disappointed. Let that be while you still have time to find a new passion or plan for your life rather than on match day or halfway through 3rd year.

You got a 202 on step 1? Okay, well maybe ortho is out now. You cry for 2 weeks and plan accordingly. Two years later, you match gen surg at a community program in an area that works for your life.

Here's med school with no step 1. You've been a poor student for 2 years, but it was all P/F so you "weren't really trying." Now it's on. 3rd year. The only year that matters now. Time to shine and score that derm/ortho/NSG/ENT residency. You've been doing research non-stop for 2 years. You've got 2 pubs and another 2 in the works. Your life is this specialty. You haven't been going to med school, you've been going to "I'm gonna be an ENT school." First shelf... whiffed it, and average evals to boot. So it's a pass in OB/GYN. Oops. Second shelf... a little better, still not good enough, mediocre evals again. Halfway through the year you realize you're painfully average. All your classmates have pubs too, because that was the 1st 2 years of school anyway. You try to study harder, but shelf exams are tough for you. Surgery comes along, one attending decides he hates your guts. You honor the shelf but his eval rips you to shreds. Another pass. 4th year is coming. Your dreams are fading. You know only 2 general surgeons who could probably remember your face, let alone write a LOR.

You just went from "future ENT" for 3 years to "I might not even be able to match gen surg in an area that allows my marriage to survive" type situation.

You want to know what makes med students depressed and hopeless? Unrealistic expectations and shattered dreams. You want to know what makes that process a whole lot easier? A reality check halfway through that lets you adjust, set realistic goals, and overcome to meet those new goals.

I know a ton of students who are adjusting right now. Can't imagine what they'd do if they found out a year from now that it wasn't in the books for them. Most people come in wanting something competitive until step 1 comes around. I understand the vitriol towards it for some students, but it's better to know sooner rather than later.

Everyone wants to be judged by their strengths and thinks their weaknesses are irrelevant. High step scorers think evals are BS. Social butterflies with great people skills think medical knowledge/step/shelf exams are BS. We need both. What we should be doing is working towards making step a better exam and making evals more objective.

 

[darklabel]

Just to add to what I said before, step 1 lets you plan your life as well. At some point you're going to be disappointed. Let that be while you still have time to find a new passion or plan for your life rather than on match day or halfway through 3rd year.

You got a 202 on step 1? Okay, well maybe ortho is out now. You cry for 2 weeks and plan accordingly. Two years later, you match gen surg at a community program in an area that works for your life.

Here's med school with no step 1. You've been a poor student for 2 years, but it was all P/F so you "weren't really trying." Now it's on. 3rd year. The only year that matters now. Time to shine and score that derm/ortho/NSG/ENT residency. You've been doing research non-stop for 2 years. You've got 2 pubs and another 2 in the works. Your life is this specialty. You haven't been going to med school, you've been going to "I'm gonna be an ENT school." First shelf... whiffed it, and average evals to boot. So it's a pass in OB/GYN. Oops. Second shelf... a little better, still not good enough, mediocre evals again. Halfway through the year you realize you're painfully average. All your classmates have pubs too, because that was the 1st 2 years of school anyway. You try to study harder, but shelf exams are tough for you. Surgery comes along, one attending decides he hates your guts. You honor the shelf but his eval rips you to shreds. Another pass. 4th year is coming. Your dreams are fading. You know only 2 general surgeons who could probably remember your face, let alone write a LOR.

You just went from "future ENT" for 3 years to "I might not even be able to match gen surg in an area that allows my marriage to survive" type situation.

You want to know what makes med students depressed and hopeless? Unrealistic expectations and shattered dreams. You want to know what makes that process a whole lot easier? A reality check halfway through that lets you adjust, set realistic goals, and overcome to meet those new goals.

I know a ton of students who are adjusting right now. Can't imagine what they'd do if they found out a year from now that it wasn't in the books for them. Most people come in wanting something competitive until step 1 comes around. I understand the vitriol towards it for some students, but it's better to know sooner rather than later.

Everyone wants to be judged by their strengths and thinks their weaknesses are irrelevant. High step scorers think evals are BS. Social butterflies with great people skills think medical knowledge/step/shelf exams are BS. We need both. What we should be doing is working towards making step a better exam and making evals more objective.

I think it's a difference of opinion. I personally don't think 1 test that you can only take once should decide your entire future. I think schools do put little emphasis on the first 2 years, but we can shift towards making them important again. Remember schools have been shifting to P/F because of Step 1 and how important it is so it's pretty easy for schools to shift back to making them important, especially for ranking. Also a lot of MD schools that are P/F actually still uses your first 2 years to decide on how to rank so schools can just adjust.

Or hell we can have shelf exams for pre-clinicals much like we have shelf exams for third year. Multiple exams so that if you have 1 ****ty exam you can make up for it or at least try.

Medical students and resident suicides have been increasingly in the news lately and one reason is because of this sort of thinking of "Well you got a 202, you cry 2 weeks, tough". I imagine it's much more to it than that and the depression of feeling like a failure from something you can't change at all is much more than most can handle. Also, it's very easy for someone who scored well or average to dismiss the feelings of those who score poorly.

 

[Goro]

I'm not in medical school yet (starting in the fall), but from snapchat seeing people I know who attended that thing, it looked/sounded like a true circle jerk...is AMA the group for the overly enthusiastic medical students or what?

The AMA was a doctor's union. Association is a polite way of saying union.

 

[operaman]

Just to add to what I said before, step 1 lets you plan your life as well. At some point you're going to be disappointed. Let that be while you still have time to find a new passion or plan for your life rather than on match day or halfway through 3rd year.

You got a 202 on step 1? Okay, well maybe ortho is out now. You cry for 2 weeks and plan accordingly. Two years later, you match gen surg at a community program in an area that works for your life.

Here's med school with no step 1. You've been a poor student for 2 years, but it was all P/F so you "weren't really trying." Now it's on. 3rd year. The only year that matters now. Time to shine and score that derm/ortho/NSG/ENT residency. You've been doing research non-stop for 2 years. You've got 2 pubs and another 2 in the works. Your life is this specialty. You haven't been going to med school, you've been going to "I'm gonna be an ENT school." First shelf... whiffed it, and average evals to boot. So it's a pass in OB/GYN. Oops. Second shelf... a little better, still not good enough, mediocre evals again. Halfway through the year you realize you're painfully average. All your classmates have pubs too, because that was the 1st 2 years of school anyway. You try to study harder, but shelf exams are tough for you. Surgery comes along, one attending decides he hates your guts. You honor the shelf but his eval rips you to shreds. Another pass. 4th year is coming. Your dreams are fading. You know only 2 general surgeons who could probably remember your face, let alone write a LOR.

You just went from "future ENT" for 3 years to "I might not even be able to match gen surg in an area that allows my marriage to survive" type situation.

You want to know what makes med students depressed and hopeless? Unrealistic expectations and shattered dreams. You want to know what makes that process a whole lot easier? A reality check halfway through that lets you adjust, set realistic goals, and overcome to meet those new goals.

I know a ton of students who are adjusting right now. Can't imagine what they'd do if they found out a year from now that it wasn't in the books for them. Most people come in wanting something competitive until step 1 comes around. I understand the vitriol towards it for some students, but it's better to know sooner rather than later.

Everyone wants to be judged by their strengths and thinks their weaknesses are irrelevant. High step scorers think evals are BS. Social butterflies with great people skills think medical knowledge/step/shelf exams are BS. We need both. What we should be doing is working towards making step a better exam and making evals more objective.

You make a good point, though I would argue that your hypothetical ENT applicant with those poor clinical grades would struggle to make it past screening for interviews even with a 240+ step 1. The applicants I've known with 270+ scores who didn't match tended to struggle clinically and it showed up on evals and in letters and even in their interviews.

You could also easily mitigate the whole thing by releasing percentile scores to the test-taker only but not put that on the official transcript as seen by programs. This would let people know where they stand if that's going to matter to them. Personally, I pretty much knew who all the AOA kids in my class were going to be pretty early in first year, so if you're interacting with classmates you'll quickly develop a sense of how you measure up. I would hope anyone who scores just above failing (202) would have the self awareness to know they are struggling, especially after 2 years of seeing their scores in the bottom quartile of their class.

Frankly I think we probably miss out on some really great applicants just because of our obsession with Step 1. Some of the best residents and even faculty I've met were people who did not do well on Step 1 but somehow managed to compensate and get a spot.

Without a scaled Step 1 score, I think we'd see programs get very inventive in how they stratify applicants. If anything, I think it would spark some innovation and maybe help us do a better job. On the whole, I think most would do something like this:

1) Some version of the SLOE like EM does. Require aways and make programs rank their rotators like EM. This alone tells me WAY more than Step 1 ever could. IF someone brings up the rear in every away, then that person better have some really awesome research or some killer letters.
2) Telephone-based behavioral interview. ENT has been toying with this. It's well validated in the business HR literature but jury is out on how well it will work for residents. I think if done well it would be a very powerful tool to further stratify applicants. For those who don't know, this is a robotic voice that reads behavioral questions and gives you a minute to record your answer. A 3rd party service scores the answers and provides a numeric score for each applicant.
3) Design a multiple choice test that addresses clinical knowledge and decision making appropriate for a new intern. Make sure it's weighted toward topics your field cares about.
4) Interview more candidates. Simple and effective way to further assess fit.

Those are 4 already existing methods for stratifying applicants and all are probably better than step 1 (since the data show step 1 does not correlate at all with residency performance).

 

[Med Ed]

Usmle/Comlex is gonna be P/F

Yawn.

 

[Womb Raider]

This was an eventful meeting

The AMA also voted to require gun owners to register their weapons.

LOL what was the reasoning?

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

Yawn.

Lol

 

[deleted407021]

Who needs reasoning? "Horror at gun violence"

You're actually sharing as a joke a picture of a survivor of a mass shooting who's suffered real and frightening threats to his health and life for his activism? What's wrong with you?

 

[Green Jello]

Who needs reasoning? "Horror at gun violence"

You are absolutely disgusting.

David Hogg had watched his classmates get slaughtered, and he is literally trying to march for our children's lives, trying to prevent the same type of tragedy that he himself had experienced.

If you think that is funny, then you and your, backwards thinking kind, can volunteer to have the same kind of horrific bloodbath that those students were in by putting those precious guns to use.

You deserve mental therapy.

 

[Green Jello]

Dear AMA,

Stop spamming my email with very left-wing slanted petitions on a daily basis and other random info. Also, this idea is dumb.

Thanks,

Anatomy

Don't you hate it how reality is biased against conservatives? It's hard to live an isolated, hateful life while being constantly bombarded with all of these stupid facts and studies and smart people calling me out for being the ignorant, misguided person I am.

 

[Green Jello]

Gun violence is as much of a healthcare issue as it is a political and human rights issue. If you'd like to elect yourself to experience treating 15x the amount of gunshot wound victims as doctors in other, (lets be frank) real developed countries then please, go ahead.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

I wonder when this thread will get the lock.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You are absolutely disgusting.

David Hogg had watched his classmates get slaughtered, and he is literally trying to march for our children's lives, trying to prevent the same type of tragedy that he himself had experienced.

If you think that is funny, then you and your, backwards thinking kind, can volunteer to have the same kind of horrific bloodbath that those students were in by putting those precious guns to use.

You deserve mental therapy.

Don't you hate it how reality is biased against conservatives? It's hard to live an isolated, hateful life while being constantly bombarded with all of these stupid facts and studies and smart people calling me out for being the ignorant, misguided person I am.

Gun violence is as much of a healthcare issue as it is a political and human rights issue. If you'd like to elect yourself to experience treating 15x the amount of gunshot wound victims as doctors in other, (lets be frank) real developed countries then please, go ahead.

🤣

 

[Green Jello]

🤣

Keep laughing to your own stupidity.

 

[zero0]

Not what my bloodshot eyes wanted to see after 12 straight hours of dedicated

 

[atomi]

Gun violence is as much of a healthcare issue as it is a political and human rights issue. If you'd like to elect yourself to experience treating 15x the amount of gunshot wound victims as doctors in other, (lets be frank) real developed countries then please, go ahead.

Go away troll. Your lies and tricks to use the feelz to get uninformed citizens to voluntarily give up their rights to protect themselves and their families in the manner and with the weapons they see fit are not appreciated.

Have fun living in the police state you are trying to build. Why don’t you ask the African American community about their trust of the police and how that work out for them, because who do you think a gun ban who is going to affect first? The wealthy white gated community?

What about the 90 lb single woman who lives alone and has to walk home alone from work at night? Don’t you think it’s unfair to deny her the right to a tool to be able to defend herself a little bit closer to the 250 lb young male who doesn’t have to think about such things?

Yes, banning guns takes a constitutional rights away from everybody equally but preferentially hurts black communities trying to defend themselves legally against the illegal weapons in their community and women who can’t physically overpower a large man. Take your sexism and racism elsewhere.

Oh but the feelz and those big scary looking guns!

 

[atomi]

If you think that is funny, then you and your, backwards thinking kind, can volunteer to have the same kind of horrific bloodbath that those students were in by putting those precious guns to use.

Troll derailed thread and suggested another member commit suicide. But watch me be the one to get the warning here...

 

[TheIllusionist]

lmfao so much misinformation on the AMA here. most docs in it hate universal. they even hated the idea of adopting something that would even study it

the strawmans about taking away guns are hilarious too.

and btw, I'm no snowflake. the AMA is the main body that is fighting to maintain scope of practice and against the use of the term "provider." they protect the hell out of the turf of doctors. If anything, they're a union for physicians. It has fought big pharma and insurnace mergers. It has created sample physician bills of rights to help doctors in contract negotiations with scheming hospitals armed with lawyers. Also, there's a ton of conservative members that constantly voice their opposition to stuff they don't like.

most doctors just like to sit and complain as corporate America buys up the whole field and replaces them slowly with midlevels or turns them into job slaves (hyperbolic I know). organized medicine is a way to fight that. and Tom Price xame out of the AMA. lol at him being a liberal. A lot of people on here just like to blabber about evil this or that. Few are involved in any big picture activities. Instead they like to critisize from their own "safe spaces," be it a conservative or liberal one, blaming anyone and everything but themselves for the devolving state of the field. Hey, I'm no fan of everything the AMA does, but I'm not going to sit here and say they are some communist organization that loves single payer and wants to take guns away. The most powerful region in the AMA, the Southeast, is also the most conservative.

If the AMA didn't exist, doctors would have a fraction of the lobbying power they do. Money talks.

And btw, a lot of these issues hate vote totals of like 55% to 45%. The AMA is no monolith. I know. I sit in the chamber. Ironically, the biggest complaint on here is that they are too liberal. The biggest complaint of the students in it are about how conservative many of the physicians are. In reality, it's a pretty moderate organization.