Tips for getting into neurosurgery residence?

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the first step is to get accepted into a medical school.


good luck
 
pingouin said:
actually, first things first- let's worry about college acceptance first.

OP, I'm moving this to hSDN since you're still in HS.
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lol,of course.
Are there any actual nonsurgical residents on here though,or are they all too busy,haha?
 
Hopingforacure said:
lol,of course.
Are there any actual nonsurgical residents on here though,or are they all too busy,haha?
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There are neuro residence on here, however most of them have better things to do then explain the process to yet another high schooler has about a .01% chance of ever actually becoming a neurosurgeon. Focus on college, and getting laid first.:idea:


Also, ever heard of google? posting this question here is basically saying " I'm too lazy to do my own research, please do it for me"
 
the duck said:
There are neuro residence on here, however most of them have better things to do then explain the process to yet another high schooler has about a .01% chance of ever actually becoming a neurosurgeon. Focus on college, and getting laid first.:idea:


Also, ever heard of google? posting this question here is basically saying " I'm too lazy to do my own research, please do it for me"
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I already did the research,but it wouldn't exactly hurt to ask actual residents and med students on a forum dedicated to the idea of assisting other people,and also dedicated to a profession of helping other people for additional advice that I may not have already known.

And for all the other lurkers out there,why is it that most of the premed students on here are the ones who give the smart-ass answers:laugh:?I notice that for some reason the actual med students and actual residents don't do that.🙄
 
The actual med students and residents are too busy working. 😉

To the OP:

1. Get into college, do well, and get into medical school.
2. ......
3. Rock med school, resident, etc.
4. ......
5. Success!

That is the short version.
 
Neurosurgery residency is probably one of the most difficult residencies to get into.

There was one thing I noticed that many residents had in common while looking through some neurosurgery profiles.

Many of them had PhDs. Like substantially more than most other residencies.

Beyond that, neurosurgery is one of those funky areas of medicine that requires outstanding facilities. Because of that, you see a lot of "foreign" individuals applying as "independent applicants" to neurosurgery residencies here in the US. Many of those independent applicants score off the charts on the USMLE Step 1.

In addition to that, a good portion of neurosurgery matches involve students who graduated from top40 us med schools.

12% of US Medical School graduates who matched neurosurgery had PhDs. 14% had another graduate degree of some sort.

Mean number of abstracts, presentations and publications for neurosurgery matches is ~ 8. ~30% of AOA members. 50% graduated from top 40 US medical schools.
Average USMLE step 1 = 239
Average USMLE step 2 = 237


http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

you can do your own research if you want.


Key to making it into neurosurgery is pretty much the same as making it into other specific match programs, with one additional (uncommon) step that increases chances (and makes you more competitive (which is the key).


  • Attend an ivy undergrad (helps you get into top 40 MD schools).
  • Conduct research and publish.
  • Get into a MD/PhD program at one of the top 40 us MD schools.
  • Ace the USMLE (240+ step one, 240+ step two).
  • Volunteer throughout (accepted applicants had an average of ~ 5 volunteer experiences).
  • Become a member of the AOA
When you do that

  • Apply broadly (take a look at the number of contiguous ranks for students accepted to neurosurgery programs.
    • Rank more programs within that specialty. IE: don't rank 2 neurosurgery specialties than rank an internal medicine specialty. Accepted neurosurgery applicants had the highest number of "contiguous ranks", that is, they ranked more neurosurgery programs without ranking another specialty.
  • Rank preferred programs in alternative specilities not just your preferred specialty.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf
 
Chrisebril1 said:
Neurosurgery residency is probably one of the most difficult residencies to get into.

There was one thing I noticed that many residents had in common while looking through some neurosurgery profiles.

Many of them had PhDs. Like substantially more than most other residencies.

Beyond that, neurosurgery is one of those funky areas of medicine that requires outstanding facilities. Because of that, you see a lot of "foreign" individuals applying as "independent applicants" to neurosurgery residencies here in the US. Many of those independent applicants score off the charts on the USMLE Step 1.

In addition to that, a good portion of neurosurgery matches involve students who graduated from top40 us med schools.

12% of US Medical School graduates who matched neurosurgery had PhDs. 14% had another graduate degree of some sort.

Mean number of abstracts, presentations and publications for neurosurgery matches is ~ 8. ~30% of AOA members. 50% graduated from top 40 US medical schools.
Average USMLE step 1 = 239
Average USMLE step 2 = 237


http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

you can do your own research if you want.


Key to making it into neurosurgery is pretty much the same as making it into other specific match programs, with one additional (uncommon) step that increases chances (and makes you more competitive (which is the key).


  • Attend an ivy undergrad (helps you get into top 40 MD schools).
  • Conduct research and publish.
  • Get into a MD/PhD program at one of the top 40 us MD schools.
  • Ace the USMLE (240+ step one, 240+ step two).
  • Volunteer throughout (accepted applicants had an average of ~ 5 volunteer experiences).
  • Become a member of the AOA
When you do that

  • Apply broadly (take a look at the number of contiguous ranks for students accepted to neurosurgery programs.
    • Rank more programs within that specialty. IE: don't rank 2 neurosurgery specialties than rank an internal medicine specialty. Accepted neurosurgery applicants had the highest number of "contiguous ranks", that is, they ranked more neurosurgery programs without ranking another specialty.
  • Rank preferred programs in alternative specilities not just your preferred specialty.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf
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Just to make sure I'm not looking at a bull**** listing.The
USU F. Edward Hébert School of Medicine

is a reasonable choice correct?
Albeit I could just go for an HPSP scholarship and get selection at a better school,but the HPSP wouldn't cover the Ph.d in a M.D/Ph.D program I'mthinking.What do you suggest?What would be worth more in the application,a Ph.d or ultra top ranked med school?
Edit:and remember that if I go to USU I will in all likelihood attend a military or at least a military-related neurosurgery residency(one at Walter Reed Army Hospital for instance).Wouldn't it be superior for me and be of more utility for me to go to the USU in that case,adding together the benefits of officership and added bonus retirement years at conclusion of USU?I guess the real question here then,is how to make myself more competitive for the Walter Reed Neurosurgery residency.......
Would the information you provided above about the choice of med schools still be relevant for the most part?And what about fellowships for a neurosurgeon in the Army,particularly spine and neurocritical care?
 
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Getting an MD/PhD is not a recommended stepping stone for getting into neurosurgery, unless maybe if you want to go to Harvard or you truly want to get a MD/PhD.... I think there is maybe one MD/PhD in the program here and I believe he is international anyways.
 
Would the Ph.d. in question have to be on a certain subject or one of my choosing?
 
lol at this thread

edit like mmmcdowe said you DO NOT need a PhD it DOES NOT increase your chances...that is pure nonsense
 
mmmcdowe said:
Getting an MD/PhD is not a recommended stepping stone for getting into neurosurgery, unless maybe if you want to go to Harvard or you truly want to get a MD/PhD.... I think there is maybe one MD/PhD in the program here and I believe he is international anyways.
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4.2% of individuals who matched to a residency had PhD
13% of individuals who matched Neurosurgery had a PhD

I was just listing the things that increase your chances at acceptance.

Now for whether or not that (MD/PhD route) with getting a PhD is worth it... I doubt it unless yes you want to go to a top Neurosurgery residency or you do want a PhD.
Even then, like 35% of MGHs neurosurgery residents have PhDs.

Anywho... 9% of individuals who didn't match Neurosurgery had PhDs. Just to show you it's more about competitiveness.

If you are incapable of performing the short term 'prove yourself' things like scoring 240+ on the USMLE, a PhD isn't going to help you that much.

I am sure there are some neurosurgery residents with PhDs earned them in fields other than neuroscience but I would bet that is the most common. It's probably one of the most direct jump off points for research to medicine. A lot of neuroscience PhDs do neurological surgery type things (on mice and other animals).


As for taking the HPSP (or Uniformed Services University) route for entering neurosurgery. Clearly it would be much harder. I was looking through past neurosurgery matches. Nobody matched to USU in 2010, and one person matched to USU in 2009.

This might help
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/How_To_Match_In_Neurosurgery/

http://www.militarygme.org/
Kind of funny how they mention Neurosurgery specifically for their example of "hard".

Anyway, do some research. If you want an HPSP (or USU (which is a very valid option for military medicine).

About the research. I was looking through "military residencies".
Airforce has no neurosurgery residencies.
Army has 12 neurosurgery residency seats (6 at walter reed and 6 others "civilian sponsored").
Navy has 6 neurosurgery residency seats all at the NNMC.

HPSP wont help you get into a neurosurgery residency, and because of the limited number of seats available, it may be a little more difficult.
 
which means 87% did not have PhD's and matched into neurosurgery.....
 
Hopingforacure said:
Would the Ph.d. in question have to be on a certain subject or one of my choosing?
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Well, most MD/PhD programs are science oriented. Further, if you are going to the effort of a PhD I would suggest doing it in an applicable field of your career (neuroscience).

I am not entirely convinced that a PhD significant increases your chances versus an intrinsic quality of MD/PhD applicants. Further, I think we can all agree that there are better ways to increase your chances than a 3+ year program.
 
YouNeverKnow22 said:
which means 87% did not have PhD's and matched into neurosurgery.....
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That's not the point...

Applicants with PhDs were accepted at a higher rate then applicants without PhDs.

A good path to take... no. I wouldn't say so. Just do research while in undergrad and medical school or something. Go to duke which requires an additional year of research...

Maximizing chances... PhD increases chances. If individuals with PhDs were accepted at a lower rate, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
 
Chrisebril1 said:
That's not the point...

Applicants with PhDs were accepted at a higher rate then applicants without PhDs.

A good path to take... no. I wouldn't say so. Just do research while in undergrad and medical school or something. Go to duke which requires an additional year of research...

Maximizing chances... PhD increases chances. If individuals with PhDs were accepted at a lower rate, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
Click to expand...

Correlation does not equal causation.

I really don't have a dog in this fight and have not looked into neurosurg residencies, but if those stats are all you have then you really can't say that PhDs were accepted at a higher rate. You CAN say that more people who matched Neurosurg had a PhD but that's about it without knowing more details about those that applied.

I think that's really what the other poster was trying to get at.... that you can't say this will increase your chance just on those numbers. For all we know more people who applied to neurosurg had PhDs to begin with.
 
OP- why are you so interested in a neurosurgery residency when you have never seen what neurosurgery is really like? if you scrolled through a listing and picked the one with the highest salary than you are a fool. i am curious on your motivations for neurosurgery. have you considered any other specialties. what happens when you can't get into neurosurg. you can prepare all you want but the odds are overwhelmingly against you.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
OP- why are you so interested in a neurosurgery residency when you have never seen what neurosurgery is really like? if you scrolled through a listing and picked the one with the highest salary than you are a fool. i am curious on your motivations for neurosurgery. have you considered any other specialties. what happens when you can't get into neurosurg. you can prepare all you want but the odds are overwhelmingly against you.
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I'm most interested in surgery in general.I'd most likely go into orthopedics if I fail to get into a neurosurgery residency.If not that then **** it,general surgery or interventional rads it is then.
 
nlax30 said:
Correlation does not equal causation.

I really don't have a dog in this fight and have not looked into neurosurg residencies, but if those stats are all you have then you really can't say that PhDs were accepted at a higher rate. You CAN say that more people who matched Neurosurg had a PhD but that's about it without knowing more details about those that applied.

I think that's really what the other poster was trying to get at.... that you can't say this will increase your chance just on those numbers. For all we know more people who applied to neurosurg had PhDs to begin with.
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So in quantifiable terms a Ph.d WILL NOT assist one in a neurosurgical residency or any residency whatsoever?
 
Hopingforacure said:
So in quantifiable terms a Ph.d WILL NOT assist one in a neurosurgical residency or any residency whatsoever?
Click to expand...

If you are doing a PhD do get into Neurosurgery, your chances are pretty slim to begin with. All that can be said, based on the information in this thread, is that it is not known whether having a PhD in itself increases your chances. Yes, PhD applicants did indeed have a slightly higher acceptance rate into neurosurg residencies. However, that does not mean it was the PhD that did it. The fact of the matter is that the average MD/PhD student tend to be more competitive coming into medical school than the average MD student. It is equally reasonable to conclude that they do better because they are better.
 
Hopingforacure said:
So in quantifiable terms a Ph.d WILL NOT assist one in a neurosurgical residency or any residency whatsoever?
Click to expand...

Who knows. You'll realize this once you get further along in your education but there are a LOT of factors that go into deciding what makes someone a good residency applicant, and they may vary depending on which program you're looking at. Program X MAY like that you have a PhD, while program Y may not care. So trying to say that this will or will not increase your chances is just not possible.

If you are looking at a PhD purely for possible residency application then I'd say don't do it. But if you are truly interested in getting a PhD in a certain field for future use regardless of whether it helps with residency apps then go for it. Your genuine interest in pursuing advanced research in a field will show through and may help later on.

Regardless, this is all way to pre-mature...... finish high school first, go play a sport, go hang out with friends and enjoy your youth without worrying about this crap just yet.
 
Chrisebril1 said:
That's not the point...

Applicants with PhDs were accepted at a higher rate then applicants without PhDs.

A good path to take... no. I wouldn't say so. Just do research while in undergrad and medical school or something. Go to duke which requires an additional year of research...

Maximizing chances... PhD increases chances. If individuals with PhDs were accepted at a lower rate, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
Click to expand...

your conclusion still makes no sense b/c the # of MD/PhD applicants is lower than the MD only applicants, so obviously there will be a higher percentage present with a lower n value
 
Hopingforacure said:
I'm most interested in surgery in general.I'd most likely go into orthopedics if I fail to get into a neurosurgery residency.If not that then **** it,general surgery or interventional rads it is then.
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Haha other than general surgery, you listed some of the most competitive specialties out there. You might as well add rad-onc, plastic surgery and maybe ENT to the list for good measure.

Make sure you want to be an actual doctor before making all these plans. You may end up not having the step 1 score for any of those specialties and you'll be in too much debt by then to change course. A 240+ is...NOT easy to get, and you'll likely need it for all the specialties you listed except maybe for GS.

Shadow doctors in other specialties (internal medicine, peds, gen surg) to make sure you really like the job at base before choosing to be mcdreamy when you grow up. For the VAST majority of people, that isn't an option.
 
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