Too late for early derm aways?

[dermaway]

I know the earlier dermatology rotations the most important, but I had some life issues come up and am late to the application game for away rotations. It seems as though a lot of schools have filled up their July, August, September spots.

Any recommendations or thoughts?

Thanks for your help!

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[asmallchild]

I know the earlier dermatology rotations the most important, but I had some life issues come up and am late to the application game for away rotations. It seems as though a lot of schools have filled up their July, August, September spots.

Any recommendations or thoughts?

Thanks for your help!

It's not optimal but not too late, I would still communicate politely with the student coordinators about arranging a last minute spot. You'll also find that many students obnoxiously hold onto too many away slots and will drop them as the time approaches to start the rotation. Polite but frequent contact with the student rotation coordinators should allow you to jump on these spots once they free up. It may not be an away rotation at your #1 choice but it's still an away and a chance to impress another program besides your home program.

 

[dermaway]

It's not optimal but not too late, I would still communicate politely with the student coordinators about arranging a last minute spot. You'll also find that many students obnoxiously hold onto too many away slots and will drop them as the time approaches to start the rotation. Polite but frequent contact with the student rotation coordinators should allow you to jump on these spots once they free up. It may not be an away rotation at your #1 choice but it's still an away and a chance to impress another program besides your home program.

Thank you for the reply.

Do you mean the person in charge of visiting students for all departments, or the specific person in dermatology, usually the residency program coordinator?

 

[asmallchild]

Thank you for the reply.

Do you mean the person in charge of visiting students for all departments, or the specific person in dermatology, usually the residency program coordinator?

You can check with both. For the aways that I applied to, it was all handled by a specific person within the dermatology department. If the first person you should be contacting is a person in charge of visting students for all departments, you can start there (although I would suspect the specific person with the derm department should have the most up-to-date list of who is still coming and who has canceled their rotation)

 

[dermaway]

You can check with both. For the aways that I applied to, it was all handled by a specific person within the dermatology department. If the first person you should be contacting is a person in charge of visting students for all departments, you can start there (although I would suspect the specific person with the derm department should have the most up-to-date list of who is still coming and who has canceled their rotation)

Ok. I'm wondering if VSAS was around when you were applying for away rotations? Not most schools seem to be coordinating it through that, which is led by someone from the schools deans office usually.

Anyways, thanks again for the advice.

If I can't end up scheduling any, is that crucially bad?

 

[DermViser]

Ok. I'm wondering if VSAS was around when you were applying for away rotations? Not most schools seem to be coordinating it through that, which is led by someone from the schools deans office usually.

Anyways, thanks again for the advice.

If I can't end up scheduling any, is that crucially bad?

Yes.

 

[dermaway]

Yes.

Yes to VSAS or yes to being critically bad.

I hope the first 🙁

If not, should I start calling derm program coordinators? I'm afraid of annoying them since most programs schedule through VSAS.

Maybe I can somehow explain my situation?

 

[DermViser]

Yes to VSAS or yes to being critically bad.

I hope the first 🙁

If not, should I start calling derm program coordinators? I'm afraid of annoying them since most programs schedule through VSAS.

Maybe I can somehow explain my situation?

Yes to being critically bad. You HAVE to do at least 1 away rotation. I would call/email derm program coordinators. If it's scheduled thru VSAS, then this may not be help, but it can't get any worse.

 

[Dral]

Just keep trying. I applied late and got a late offer for a top a NYC program.

 

[asmallchild]

Ok. I'm wondering if VSAS was around when you were applying for away rotations? Not most schools seem to be coordinating it through that, which is led by someone from the schools deans office usually.

Anyways, thanks again for the advice.

If I can't end up scheduling any, is that crucially bad?

Unfortunately my away rotations pre-date VSAS so I can't offer too much insight on that, I usually communicated directly with the person within the derm department that ran the student rotation. I'm not a huge fan of aways in general but in this day, I think you need to do at least one. Beyond serving as an audition, it's a chance for you to see how derm is practiced outside of your home program and to see what kind of residency program would fit you best.

 

[dermie1985]

Yes to being critically bad. You HAVE to do at least 1 away rotation. I would call/email derm program coordinators. If it's scheduled thru VSAS, then this may not be help, but it can't get any worse.

I sort of disagree. I know it depends on the school you're coming from and CV/background, but few people at my institution do away rotations. And, the ones that have told me they didn't think doing away rotations had any real effect on their application cycle. Yes, you can get extra letters of recommendation out of these rotations and you'll get more exposure to dermatology. Yes, I think it can have a substantial effect on networking and getting to know faculty at a specific institution you're interested in attending. But, all in all, these rotations probably have the most effect on your chances at a single institution (the one you rotate at) rather than the 50 or so other programs you're probably applying to. In other words, I don't think 1 vs. 0 away rotations is going to make or break your residency application.

An alternative is to look into 4-week research electives (maybe less popular?) with some sort of defined project (probably clinical research-based). In those cases, you'll probably work 1:1 with a faculty member who could become an advocate for you in the residency committee meetings, even if you're not going to be in clinic to show off your "skills".

 

[DermViser]

I sort of disagree. I know it depends on the school you're coming from and CV/background, but few people at my institution do away rotations. And, the ones that have told me they didn't think doing away rotations had any real effect on their application cycle. Yes, you can get extra letters of recommendation out of these rotations and you'll get more exposure to dermatology. Yes, I think it can have a substantial effect on networking and getting to know faculty at a specific institution you're interested in attending. But, all in all, these rotations probably have the most effect on your chances at a single institution (the one you rotate at) rather than the 50 or so other programs you're probably applying to. In other words, I don't think 1 vs. 0 away rotations is going to make or break your residency application.

An alternative is to look into 4-week research electives (maybe less popular?) with some sort of defined project (probably clinical research-based). In those cases, you'll probably work 1:1 with a faculty member who could become an advocate for you in the residency committee meetings, even if you're not going to be in clinic to show off your "skills".

You also go to a top 5 medical school that doesn't have AOA (#3-5 have AOA)- that narrows it down to 2 very prestigious medical schools who have fantastic top tier derm departments. Those people don't necessarily need to rotate anywhere. I don't believe Dermaway or most medical students for that matter applying to derm are in that position.

Edit: A research position doesn't help as much bc 1) you have to be able to finish the project by the end of the month, and you don't get to show your clinical knowledge as much. It's a useful adjunct, but not a replacement for a clinical rotation.

 

[falmouth]

You also go to a top 5 medical school that doesn't have AOA (#3-5 have AOA)- that narrows it down to 2 very prestigious medical schools who have fantastic top tier derm departments. Those people don't necessarily need to rotate anywhere. I don't believe Dermaway or most medical students for that matter applying to derm are in that position.

Yeah this would rarely apply to most people.

 

[dermaway]

You also go to a top 5 medical school that doesn't have AOA (#3-5 have AOA)- that narrows it down to 2 very prestigious medical schools who have fantastic top tier derm departments. Those people don't necessarily need to rotate anywhere. I don't believe Dermaway or most medical students for that matter applying to derm are in that position.

Edit: A research position doesn't help as much bc 1) you have to be able to finish it by the end of the month, and you don't get to show your clinical knowledge as much. It's a useful adjunct, but not a replacement for a clinical rotation.

Yeah sadly I don't. Junior AOA, so on paper I think I have a good app. Working on aways though.

Would it be all right for me to choose a program I'm interested in but later in the year as opposed to just any program with an opening in July/August/September?

Thanks for the advice!

 

[DermViser]

Yeah sadly I don't. Junior AOA, so on paper I think I have a good app. Working on aways though.

Would it be all right for me to choose a program I'm interested in but later in the year as opposed to just any program with an opening in July/August/September?

Thanks for the advice!

The problem is that you need Derm letters in time to garner interviews and you can't just rely on matching into your home derm program.

 

[dermaway]

The problem is that you need Derm letters in time to garner interviews and you can't just rely on matching into your home derm program.

Ah understood, I thought letters from my home program would be enough. Makes sense, hopefully something will work out. Thanks.

 

[asmallchild]

Ah understood, I thought letters from my home program would be enough. Makes sense, hopefully something will work out. Thanks.

If you come from a school linked with a top tier derm program, those might be all the letters you need. For most of us, we do need to look outside our own institutions to get the most well-rounded collection of letters (remember: you want letters from dermatologists and the bigger the name, the better)

Keep plugging away, spots will open up and I've always felt one solid away where you are on top of your game the whole time is better than spreading yourself out too thin with 2/3/4 (god forbid) aways and leaving negative impressions everywhere you rotate.

 

[username456789]

Eh, I did two aways and had no letters from them. Got 2 derm letters from my home program, a medicine letter, and a letter from a PI for a research project that had nothing to do with dermatology. I had 16 interviews and matched into my top choice. Obviously n=1, but it's clearly not VITAL.

It probably does help if you're looking to break into a different geographic region. If you live on the east coast and you rotate in California, having a letter from out there might help you get interviews in that region.

 

[DermViser]

Eh, I did two aways and had no letters from them. Got 2 derm letters from my home program, a medicine letter, and a letter from a PI for a research project that had nothing to do with dermatology. I had 16 interviews and matched into my top choice. Obviously n=1, but it's clearly not VITAL.

It probably does help if you're looking to break into a different geographic region. If you live on the east coast and you rotate in California, having a letter from out there might help you get interviews in that region.

We don't have the rest of your application to give us a better idea, but did you match at your home program?

 

[username456789]

We don't have the rest of your application to give us a better idea, but did you match at your home program?

Nah. But I did match where I did an away! My home program is fine, fairly average, certainly not a high powered elite Derm program.

The rest of my app wasn't really anything special. Above average Step scores for Derm, below average research.

Again I don't want you to think I'm trying to make broad generalizations for everyone based on just my personal experiences. When I was applying it was my impression that always could definitely help you "get your foot in the door" of a program or a general region, and maybe increase your interview invite yield slightly, but I probably would've stopped short of saying always were "necessary."

 

[exeunt]

I have also been curious about the necessity of doing away rotations. As others have said, theoretically this would only increase your chances at 1-2 institutions, right? And if it's not an institution that tends to favor its rotators, then does it really help in terms of matching? It's also difficult to find out which institutions favor rotators in non-local geographic regions. I took a year off so am not looking to get letters at any of my aways.

 

[asmallchild]

I have also been curious about the necessity of doing away rotations. As others have said, theoretically this would only increase your chances at 1-2 institutions, right? And if it's not an institution that tends to favor its rotators, then does it really help in terms of matching? It's also difficult to find out which institutions favor rotators in non-local geographic regions. I took a year off so am not looking to get letters at any of my aways.

It depends on the rest of your application package. For the average applicant, they need at least one away in order to acquire enough letters. There's also a psychological aspect involved. While I promised myself at the beginning of the application process I wouldn't fall into this mindset, there is a tendency to look around at your fellow students to see what they are doing and if you are "keeping up". Doing at least one away means you won't feel like are missing a step along the way. It seems like most students now are headed towards 2+ aways.

 

[Grace82]

From my personal experience applying last year as well as the anecdotal experiences of several friends it seemed that aways didn't help that much. I saw several people end up not getting interviews at places they rotated (for unclear reasons) and most people I know (myself included) matched at a place in which we didn't rotate. In very competitive fields like derm it is hard to stand out in an unfamiliar environment and often small missteps are highly scrutinized. While this is only my personal experience and others may have had a very different one, I think the importance of away rotations is overrated.

 

[DermViser]

I think it also depends to on WHERE you're rotating as to how much bang for the buck you'll get with an away rotation. The competition is fierce enough that faculty can always choose applicants based on what they want without having to compromise or worry of going unmatched. There are some places that filter who they even allow to rotate in Derm based on USMLE Step 1 score and there are places that are highly academic in popular cities in which none of the people who matched were rotators.

 

[dermathalon]

Bingo on the above post! Where you rotate is paramount. If you go to a big name institution that only looks at number or has a Step 1 score filter for rotators (gag...) then you need to think twice about rotating there.

 

[sore eye asses]

Bingo on the above post! Where you rotate is paramount. If you go to a big name institution that only looks at number or has a Step 1 score filter for rotators (gag...) then you need to think twice about rotating there.

But Dermathalon, how will we keep the riff-raff out without filters? I don't want a dummy with a step 1 score of 245 stinking up the place with his/her feeble thoughts. Derm is an exact science that needs brilliant minds with step scores > 250. How else will we continue to discover new diseases that are actually old diseases and give them new unpronounceable and eponymous names?

 

[DermViser]

Bingo on the above post! Where you rotate is paramount. If you go to a big name institution that only looks at number or has a Step 1 score filter for rotators (gag...) then you need to think twice about rotating there.

I would say it takes a lot of ego to demand that students have a specific USMLE Step 1 score for the "honor" of getting to rotate:
https://services.aamc.org/20/vsas/public/school/instID/165 - "The minimum Step 1 score required for a rotation in DERM is 250."

Must be such a delight to rotate with such faculty. Make me wonder how many of them got a 250 when they were med students.

At least the others are a little more covert and just ask for you to just send your scores.