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Does your school have AOA?

Honestly, assuming P/F step 1 and that AOA is based predominantly on your performance on clinical rotations, I struggle to imagine a scenario where you would be competitive for a T5 program. Coming from a relatively unremarkable school and getting good-not-great grades on your clinical rotations, you're probably just not in the top 1-2% of IM applicants in the whole country. Which is nothing to be ashamed of. By all means apply if for some reason that is a goal of yours, but also realize that you likely can achieve your career goals coming from "a good" IM program that doesn't have to be T5.
 
Probably unlikely unless you have something else to stand out (nature/cell publication, award winning author, former Olympian, Fulbright/Rhodes scholar).

For example, somebody who was on USA fencing Olympic team was/is a student at Kentucky. If she applied, I bet she’d at least get interviews at a few big fours

Of course AOA probably doesn’t matter if
your school doesn’t have it. Though I think for mid tiers and below it behooves schools to have AOA for differentiation purposes
 
Does AOA really matter that much that you think this applicant would have no chance without it? I'm surprised PD's would care that much given the selection process is so different everywhere and seems to be less than objective. I understand it beings a nice point in your favor but I don't see how it can be an end-all be-all
 
tossaway000999888 said:
Does AOA really matter that much that you think this applicant would have no chance without it? I'm surprised PD's would care that much given the selection process is so different everywhere and seems to be less than objective. I understand it beings a nice point in your favor but I don't see how it can be an end-all be-all
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For top IM, it seems as if school pedigree is by far the most important thing followed by AOA. I would say it’s a pretty big deal. Even though selection committees differ, being AOA is always a net positive as it means you’re one (or most likely multiple) of the following

-Intelligent
-Well-liked/charismatic
-Hard working
 
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tossaway000999888 said:
Does AOA really matter that much that you think this applicant would have no chance without it? I'm surprised PD's would care that much given the selection process is so different everywhere and seems to be less than objective. I understand it beings a nice point in your favor but I don't see how it can be an end-all be-all
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As I said, assuming it’s mostly based on grades including clinical rotation scores, I don’t see how the OP distinguishes themselves against the applicants from “better” schools who have all honors rather than mostly HP. That’s no knock against the OP, just a recognition that the top 5 IM programs are extremely competitive and there are limited interview slots.

I suppose if they were an MD/PhD with a very high impact paper that could possibly do it. But again all the other applicants to top programs would have the same run of the mill pubs, so it would take a paper that was unusually impactful
 
For clarity's sake, as somebody also planning to go IM, what programs are considered the top 5 programs?
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
For top IM, it seems as if school pedigree is by far the most important thing followed by AOA. I would say it’s a pretty big deal. Even though selection committees differ, being AOA is always a net positive as it means you’re one (or most likely multiple) of the following

-Intelligent
-Well-liked/charismatic
-Hard working
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I get it being a positive becuase you always have to do something good to get in, but I don't understand why it would be a chance killer not to have it because it measures different things at different schools. So if Program A values intelligence, AOA might measure that more at school A than school B. If they value charisma, AOA might measure that more at school B. I doubt PD's are deep diving into AOA selection at each school to know what it means, so as a tool its starts to loose any value if it can't be applied consistently.

This doesn't matter to me for a few years, it just seems like throwing darts at a board and picking the names you hit, although I guess that's close to what the process is 🤣
 
GoSpursGo said:
As I said, assuming it’s mostly based on grades including clinical rotation scores, I don’t see how the OP distinguishes themselves against the applicants from “better” schools who have all honors rather than mostly HP. That’s no knock against the OP, just a recognition that the top 5 IM programs are extremely competitive and there are limited interview slots.

I suppose if they were an MD/PhD with a very high impact paper that could possibly do it. But again all the other applicants to top programs would have the same run of the mill pubs, so it would take a paper that was unusually impactful
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Gotcha, so you're using it more as a surrogate for grades. That makes sense then.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU

Fifth up for debate. Columbia/NYP, Penn/HUP?
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To add to this, I go to a very solidly low-tier MD school

Every single person in the last 5 years who have matched in IM at one of those aforementioned institutions had AOA.


Except 1 - but their dad or uncle was a relatively prominent person at that institution. Gotta love it.
 
ToMD2025 said:
well as for me, I am top 25% of my class which makes me eligible for AOA but I dont know if ill get it since its so competitive. Also my school is p/f, so I am not sure if they disclose rank in our letters.
I really would love to apply to bwh since I did research there before med school and loved it. But seems like it may be impossible to even get an interview.
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just aim for AOA then if you have the rank to get it . Yes, it might require kissing up to the people in power. But as John Wooden said, “if you really want something, you’ll find a way. If not, you’ll find a excuse”
 
Lawpy said:
Extremely strong connections to powerful people at T5 programs on top of the usual 260/all honors/research/aways
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I didn't know people did aways in IM. How common is this? And is it a must for the T5 programs? And would these aways be in plain IM, or an IM subspecialty elective (e.g. cardiology)?
 
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