Torn between program orientation and research topic

[HPB2015]

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The very last minute and I'm reaching out in hopes someone might've dealt with this quandary or similar.

I have two offers (no waitlisted folks waiting for my spots), both top research programs, totally funded, wonderful mentors, basically a dream in many ways.

Program 1 is a clinical/community program which resonates deeply with my worldview, though was not what I originally sought (didn't even know about community psych before). My mentor is a wonderful human being with related interests to me but not perfectly aligned. There's 1-2 other profs I could be interested in side projects with and they encourage that. It is a small town and my partner is somewhat worried about job prospects and whether we could deal with 6 years of that lifestyle. The school has an outstanding rep in our field but not the brand name that the other program does. This program feels very supportive and "warm."

Program 2 is straight clinical in a big city I have lived in before and feel neutral about returning to. The mentor is wonderful and considered a "superstar" - my interests are well aligned but I would need to figure out how to take it a social justice route more on my own. The rest of the program outside of my mentor is more traditional and I do not share interests with other faculty (though of course I respect their work). I am fairly confident I'll be something of an oddball but not sure if that really matters. The faculty here are more old school and cocky/ivory tower, though still innovative, smart, and nice. The school has a fancy name.

This is what it comes down to, I think. My gut says the clinical/community program because I know I'll "fit in" there and be trained in methods I find to be really important. But my head sort of says there's something about moving in a big city working with a supportive superstar prof with a closer research interest and I can pull in my own readings/perspectives that are community-based, humanistic, etc. ** Is it realistic or not to think I can bring in perspectives that are outside the expertise/interest of my mentor/program, as long as they are relevant?**

I'm also leaning away from pursuing a FT tenure track university job and I wonder if community + clinical will open more dynamic job ops??

Has anyone faced a similar dilemma? How did it go for you? Thoughts are greatly appreciated at this desperate last hour!

 

[HPB2015]

Anyone? Bueller?

 

[QAsPsych]

Are you sure you aren't me a year in the past?

A question to ask yourself: how much time do you want to spend being angry? Being in a space that doesn't match your values means more time fighting (or disengaging). Don't expect them to just be open to considering alternative viewpoints. On the other hand, job prospects for your partner are worth thinking about...and well, if you are thinking of jobs outside academia, a fancy name means a lot (depending how fancy). And I think if anything clinical/community suggests less hireability outside academia after you graduate compared to straight clinical.

Can't solve it for you, but, those are the important pros/cons to consider I guess

 

[HPB2015]

Are you sure you aren't me a year in the past?

Thank you so much for replying @QAsPsych! What did you choose and how has it panned out for you so far?

 

[Tupelo Honey]

I can say that my situation was somewhat similar 'cepting both programs were clinical. I had to choose between a smaller program which I was more comfortable in, that felt like "home" to me, and a program in a major city which offered better opportunities and well-known faculty. I chose the big city program with better opportunities. I still don't know if it was the right choice. It has definitely been difficult and I often feel that I would be doing much better at the other program. However, I am incredibly grateful for the opportunities that my program offers and think that my future self will be relieved and better off when I eventually make it through to the other side. It's incredibly stressful day-to-day but I'll be set up nicely for internship/post-doc/employment. To me, that's most important. If I am going to give up 6-7 years of my life, it better be worth it, career-wise, in the end.

 

[QAsPsych]

Thank you so much for replying @QAsPsych! What did you choose and how has it panned out for you so far?

I chose a school with a fancy name that doesn't fit my values. What I have found is that I spend a lot of time fighting against ill-informed negative attitudes wrt humanistic & community approaches. Don't expect people to be on board with it or open to it; they are very unlikely to be. I don't know if I would choose differently, though, the fancy name and famous advisor are nice perks that none of the other programs I considered could have offered me. Get back to me in 6 years and I'll tell you how it worked out 😉

 

[EekVonBlergh]

@HPB2015 You know my vote 😉

But seriously, I'm thinking about you and your partner, and I hope that your final decision brings you peace and happiness. I know that you will be successful regardless of which program you choose, and either program will benefit from having you in the incoming cohort.

 

[deleted343839]

That's a tough choice. I'll offer a few general observations:

(1) You don't go to graduate school to have your existing worldview validated. Working with people who hold different perspectives about the science (so long as their ideas are rigorous and defensible) will challenge you and maybe frustrate you, but it will also help you grow as a scientist and thinker. On the other hand, you may not get the depth that you crave in the methods or traditions that interest you.

(2) It's easier to close doors on opportunities than pry them open. There are numerous intangible benefits attached to a name-brand school and a star advisor. There are downsides as well, of course.

(3) It's useful to begin thinking about some politically expedient outlets for your interests in social justice that can make your work more marketable (eg, community based participatory research as applied to your content area).

(4) Ultimately, your goal is to get the highest quality training you can get in the skills that you need to develop the career you want after graduate school. One program's strength in the type of training you require might trump the prestige of a program that is weak in that area. Let that, not the "comfort" factor, guide your decision. After all, your career is going to be much longer than graduate school.

Good luck - sounds like you have two solid options!

 

[kestrelcry]

I think it's important to think about your comfort over the next however many years in terms of secondary benefit as well as primary. If you are miserable in your program, it may affect your productivity, efficacy, relationship, etc, all of which can have long-term repercussions. I've seen it happen to multiple people and experienced some of it myself. Mind you, that doesn't mean I say automatically go for the smaller program, in your situation I can see pros and cons to both. It's a tough decision; I cross my fingers for you!

 

[Ollie123]

Definitely a tough decision. Environment matters a great deal and its important to think about where YOU would be most productive as well. Joining a strong group will only get you so far if its not (really) what you want to do. School name matters some at the very top, but realistically I don't think it has a huge impact. Your mentor is who opens doors for you, so its mostly about what doors you want to be opened and balancing that with personal life.

I'm doing work in community psych on internship even though its wildly removed from what I did in grad school - so it IS also possible to get some of that training later. If it were my focus though, I certainly wouldn't want this to be "it." Clinical-community may make it somewhat harder to find jobs in traditional academia, but will quite likely open other doors outside traditional academia. Those may or may not be desirable depending on your goals.

I'm not in any way trying to dissuade you from program #2, which sounds like a great option. I'd just think very clearly about what you think provides the best training for what YOU want to do, since I think that is the ultimate question. Its important to get diverse experiences, but it should be built on a strong foundation - otherwise you will just seem scattered (speaking from experience...).

 

[shrinkgirl15]

I'm not at the application stage yet, but if I were you, I'd consider:

1. Do you see yourself with your partner for 6+ years? I.e. how stable/serious is your relationship? If very serious and stable, then considering my partner's happiness would be at the top of my list. I know if my partner was miserable and dissatisfied, I wouldn't feel good about my decision, no matter how perfect the program might be for me.

2. The bigger program with the more established/well-known advisor sounds like it'd open more doors for you in the long run. And think--you might have the opportunity to expose him to a more humanistic/community orientation, which might be struggle for you, but might make things easier for graduates in the following years. You could be something of a trailblazer if you handle conflict right.

3. The smaller program sounds like the easier path, and it does come down to personal fit--are you the kind of person who doesn't mind standing on their own and defending what they believe in? Are you open to educating others with the power to make your life miserable in order to change their minds? Or does that just make you drip cold sweat and curl up into a tiny, weeping ball? At the end of the six years, what will you regret NOT doing?

Good luck! It sounds like you have a tough decision with two equally amazing choices! An enviable place to be. 🙂

 

[QAsPsych]

3. The smaller program sounds like the easier path, and it does come down to personal fit--are you the kind of person who doesn't mind standing on their own and defending what they believe in? Are you open to educating others with the power to make your life miserable in order to change their minds? Or does that just make you drip cold sweat and curl up into a tiny, weeping ball?

I would be cautious with thinking about it in these terms. People are surprisingly closed to being "educated" in this manner (especially by a student). I don't think the problem is being afraid of such experience, I think it's more that you risk anger-related burnout. I went into clinical psychology knowing I would be angry a lot because of the state of the field and popular opinions in the field. Being in a program that is well known helps me be taken seriously when I say things that would not be taken seriously if voiced from a school that is associated with humanistic/community approaches, which is part of why I chose my program. I hope that once I venture out into the world at the end of 5 years, it pays off in that people who are not focused on community approaches and the like will listen in a way they wouldn't if I graduated from, say, Duquesne. Within the program, however, it is very clear that standing on my own is not educating others, it's just standing -on my own-.

 

[shrinkgirl15]

I would be cautious with thinking about it in these terms. People are surprisingly closed to being "educated" in this manner (especially by a student). I don't think the problem is being afraid of such experience, I think it's more that you risk anger-related burnout. I went into clinical psychology knowing I would be angry a lot because of the state of the field and popular opinions in the field.

I hear what you're saying, but in my opinion, it likely also depends a lot on personality--the person doing the "educating" and the person/people being "educated." How you say something will affect how it's perceived, not to say anything about all the other filters in between (culture of the institution, personal cultural norms of the people involved, etc.). I think there are too many variables to definitively say that people will or will not be open to being "educated" or even that OP will or will not risk anger-related burnout. Keeping both possibilities in mind--and how easy it'd be to live with either one--seems to me to be the best way to go.

 

[shrinkgirl15]

P.S.--Reading over my third bullet point, I can see how it'd be easy to perceive that I was saying that a person who wanted to change the world/was braver would go with the bigger clinical program. Just to be clear, that wasn't my intention at all. I think there are great reasons to go with either program, but if it were me making the decision, I'd keep the focus on those things and ultimately think about what I'd regret missing out on the most.

 

[EmotRegulation]

Graduate school is often what you make of it. Are there advantages of a superstar advisor? Sure, but less so if that advisor is always gone doing talks, mostly only works with postdocs or cocky/rigid about working style. There are a lot of fabulous *mentors* out there who are superstar researchers, but there are also superstar researchers who are crappy mentors. In my mind, the latter does not promote a good working environment. On the other side, there are also fabulous mentors who aren't superstar researchers...these people can be great advocates for you, help you obtain the experiences you want to have, even if they don't have the clout in the field. (A crappy mentor who is also a crappy researcher is a bad option....no perks there).

Don't knock the options to work with other faculty, either. When you apply for jobs down the line you will need multiple letters of rec. Working with more than one faculty member for research can make obtaining those letters MUCH easier. Also, you may have an easier time demonstrating an independent line of research if you work with multiple people, as this means everything you publish won't be with just one lab.

Fancy school name doesn't mean much in the field. Might mean a lot to people who ask you where you go to school, but rankings of *universities* don't matter much at the grad school level. Program reputation might help you, sure, but the fancy name school? Eh.

I recognize that I am saying these things from a value driven place, as I value environment and climate way more than potential "door opening" that can be done for me. Probably because I am currently at a smaller program in a smaller town, and also because I made it my mission to open my own damn doors when I was a graduate student.

 

[deleted343839]

People are surprisingly closed to being "educated" in this manner (especially by a student). I don't think the problem is being afraid of such experience, I think it's more that you risk anger-related burnout. I went into clinical psychology knowing I would be angry a lot because of the state of the field and popular opinions in the field. Being in a program that is well known helps me be taken seriously when I say things that would not be taken seriously if voiced from a school that is associated with humanistic/community approaches, which is part of why I chose my program.

That seems like a rather cynical approach to me. I would be concerned about a trainee who perceives a need to push back against "the state of the field" in a program where none of the faculty are well equipped to mentor them in the methods or content that enable them to challenge the status quo. It's no surprise that your faculty don't want you to "educate" them.

The credibility privilege you refer to is nice, but it's going to dissolve quickly once you launch your career. The quality of the evidence you're putting forth will always matter more. I trust you see more value to your training than just the brand name and the ability to speak the language of mainstream clinical psychology.

 

[QAsPsych]

That seems like a rather cynical approach to me. I would be concerned about a trainee who perceives a need to push back against "the state of the field" in a program where none of the faculty are well equipped to mentor them in the methods or content that enable them to challenge the status quo. It's no surprise that your faculty don't want you to "educate" them.

The credibility privilege you refer to is nice, but it's going to dissolve quickly once you launch your career. The quality of the evidence you're putting forth will always matter more. I trust you see more value to your training than just the brand name and the ability to speak the language of mainstream clinical psychology.

Way to read into what I said. You have no idea about my situation. I'll leave it to my university to decide whether they are "concerned" about me, thanks.

The point of my message was to give a realistic perspective about changing the opinion of other students (let alone faculty), based on someone else's comments suggesting this approach could be successful.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[deleted343839]

You said you went into the field expecting to be angry much of the time. You implied that you expected your institutional affiliation to lend credibility to your ideas that are, presumably, controversial in some way. Those statements seemed cynical to me. I actually think that graduate students influence their mentors quite often, though perhaps not on the level you'd like to see. It works both ways.

I sincerely hope you find better support as you advance to the next steps of your training and career development. I am an outsider of sorts myself. I stay connected with mentors and colleagues in my area in part to avoid becoming my own one-person echo chamber. Perhaps you already do something similar. Anyway, you don't have to swim against the current alone.

 

[QAsPsych]

You misunderstand me completely.

If OP is interested in my perspective they are free to inquire via PM, or not.

 

[HPB2015]

@QAsPsych, @MamaPhD @Tupelo Honey, @Ollie123, @kestrelcry, @shrinkgirl15, and @Hopeyhope (I think that's everyone who commented), I really appreciate your replies. Many good points were brought up and I only wish there was no argument as sometimes happens on these threads...

Anyway, for the sense of conclusion, I'm sharing my decision. I had to make the decision with head rather than my heart which is painful but, I hope, still totally OK. I chose Program 2. In the end, Program 1 was where my heart was, but I didn't understand how much my spouse was less excited about the small town and had a fear of lacking job opportunities (perhaps my partner wasn't ready to articulate that yet either). Yet Program 2 offers amazing opportunities including a great mentor (fancy or not, let's be honest, I don't care about fancy either - I am not a "groupie" of my mentor, but I hope to become a fan of his due to his mentorship) and while I know the program doesn't explicitly espouse some of my values, I will seek to connect with others with shared values in other ways. Luckily I will be in a major city and I am going to work to connect with students with shared values at the other half dozen or so clinical psych programs in the city.

To that end, if folks do have ideas of what has worked best for them to supplement their studies with conferences, communities, student groups, readings, classes at other institutions and so on (especially with social justice/community/humanistic bents), I would love to hear - I'm sure in reality many of us need be the cruise directors of our own education/careers and supplement (no matter the specific issue). I may follow up with some of you via PM too, but I need to take a couple of days "off" SDN and grad school life to come to terms with my decision and commit to creating a very bright future for myself.

Thank you again for the support and advice, and future camaraderie!!

 

[deleted343839]

while I know the program doesn't explicitly espouse some of my values, I will seek to connect with others with shared values in other ways. Luckily I will be in a major city and I am going to work to connect with students with shared values at the other half dozen or so clinical psych programs in the city.

That's probably the most important step you can take from the outset. You can also join APA Division 27. You can investigate elective coursework outside your department (I had to go to my institution's nursing school to get my health systems/health policy fix in grad school; perhaps you could look into social work, interdisciplinary studies, etc.). But also make sure to also talk to your advisor about your interests and values. It may be that it takes multiple conversations to demonstrate your commitment to this area.

Congratulations and best of luck with your graduate studies!!!