Trayvon Martin Medical Examiner fired

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http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/justice/trayvon-martin-medical-examiner-fired/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

[LADoc00]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/justice/trayvon-martin-medical-examiner-fired/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I would guess his salary was rock bottom as well. I dont know how many times I have posted on this forum: DO NOT go into Forensics as a career. If you are interested in it like I am, make it hobby and read about it and keep up on the literature in the field.

But do not subject yourself to random whim of fools with community college degrees who run for political office or become the local sheriff.

 

[deleted314957]

$175,950. he was/is the associate ME. the chief ME for district 7 (volusia county ) makes more. the work gets split and it is part time. generally every other day with autopsies ( if there are any) confined to the morning. i was able to hold down a hospital practice with the help of another guy in my group. i was assoc. ME for 2 years in late 80's. we could also bill for any expert testimony at very good rates.

 

[deleted314957]

i may need to correct my prior. when i did it we ONLY covered Volusia county. now, apparently, they have an agreement with adjacent seminole county to do their work too. in that case, if it were full time and to the exclusion of other work it certainly would suck

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

I would guess his salary was rock bottom as well. I dont know how many times I have posted on this forum: DO NOT go into Forensics as a career. If you are interested in it like I am, make it hobby and read about it and keep up on the literature in the field.

But do not subject yourself to random whim of fools with community college degrees who run for political office or become the local sheriff.

Did you guys watch his actual testimony? That guy is a clown who was probably a classmate of Dr. Nick Riviera at the Hollywood Upstairs College of Medicine and deserved to be fired.

For the good of FP as a whole, charlatans like Dr. Bao need to be rooted from the profession.

He is now suing the county for $100,000,000 (no, I am not joking) claiming the prosecutors lost the case purposefully in order to have him fired

 

[deleted314957]

Agree. He is a complete embarasment as an FP. The speciality has always been top-heavy with these folks. I'm sure this crap makes Dr. Alan Moritz spin in his grave.

 

[mlw03]

A few comments.

I disagree with LAdoc about FP as a career. Way better job security than any other area in pathology (true shortage and can't outsource FP). Look at AAFS or NAME job postings if curious - there are always at least 10-15 openings in the US and Canada. There ain't enough of us, and plenty of white guys in the 50s who will retire within a decade (unlike diagnostic path, FP is physically taxing - you try examining a 230kg decedent). And north of the border, the pay is much better, although the gap seems to be narrowing a bit. Los Angeles just appointed a new chief, reported salary 275K.

I never watched Dr. Bao's testimony, but heard it was quite awkward. Did follow Dr. DiMaio testifying for the defense, and believe Zimmerman owes the man his freedom. DiMaio looked at the findings and basically said, "yeah, Zimmerman's story is possible given the evidence" and that clearly equaled resonated with jurors that perhaps Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. Perhaps = reasonable doubt = not guilty. As a young FP, this case was a bit of a textbook on how to act and how not to act on the witness stand.

Call me a xenophobe if you must, but doing pathology in a foreign language is hard, and for FP it's just worse. I honestly can't imagine the difficulty of writing my reports in French, or any non-native language. FP reports often must convey subtle details, and we do that through precise punctuation, specific adverbs and adjectives, and how we use written and spoken language. It's tough enough doing it in my native tongue. I do know some English as a second language FPs who are very good, both as pathologists and in their command of written and spoken English, but even more than other areas of path, I think the bar for proficiency in the language where you work must be set extremely high for FPs.

As to the lawsuit, this will probably be ugly on both side for a long time. Dr. Bao is probably rather worried for his financial future, as he may be worried about his ability to find future employment as an FP in the US, given the notoriety of his case.

 

[LADoc00]

I dont disagree FP SHOULD be a good career. It should be a GREAT career. But the government types who control it will never allow a FP to make more than the local sheriff they are under (I think there is even some governmental concept for this like "wage inversion") and FP will be forever at the swordpoint of vindictive public attorneys and elected politicians...

FP in America exists under a Damocles Sword and for a rational, intelligent and professional adult (with responsibilities to your family etc) to me that is unacceptable.

 

[mlw03]

I dont disagree FP SHOULD be a good career. It should be a GREAT career. But the government types who control it will never allow a FP to make more than the local sheriff they are under (I think there is even some governmental concept for this like "wage inversion") and FP will be forever at the swordpoint of vindictive public attorneys and elected politicians...

FP in America exists under a Damocles Sword and for a rational, intelligent and professional adult (with responsibilities to your family etc) to me that is unacceptable.

I agree with the part I bolded.

As to the salaries, they definitely are less on average than diagnostic path in the US - in Canada, they're about the same. Average in the US seems to be in the mid-upper 100s range, which I also agree is less than it should be. We shall see if salaries go up if/when a huge shortage hits, and offices start really, really struggling to even get their cases done without bringing in non-FP pathologists to handle the suspected natural and drug-related autopsies.

Those of us that are native English speaking and competent do pretty well. Dr. Bao's case exemplifies the importance of being comfortable and minimally competent when it comes to testifying.

 

[gbwillner]

Did you guys watch his actual testimony? That guy is a clown who was probably a classmate of Dr. Nick Riviera at the Hollywood Upstairs College of Medicine and deserved to be fired.

For the good of FP as a whole, charlatans like Dr. Bao need to be rooted from the profession.

He is now suing the county for $100,000,000 (no, I am not joking) claiming the prosecutors lost the case purposefully in order to have him fired

THIS.

That guy was a total D*bag. He was grasping at straws in his testimony, and what he said afterwards was just embarrassing.

 

[KCShaw]

There aren't very many places that have the forensic pathologist serving the Sheriff -- the only place I know that does it in a widespread fashion is California, and that kind of system has been spoken against by most in FP. Really the entire old fashioned coroner concept has been picked on for many decades by pretty much everyone except coroners. But, no doubt, forensic pathology tends to get its most press when it's bad, and the reality of political entanglements is out there even in well organized systems with better separation of the powers of law enforcement, prosecuting attorneys, and elected officials. It's been publicized more than once when someone bemoans the fact that the ME/coroner is paid higher than some other local official who thinks they should be highest paid in the county -- of course that has gone both ways, and one can compare degrees with those complaining, not that I recommend such a tact.

But yeah, we should make more just for -those- kinds of increased risks! I'm sure we "lose" a lot of talent because of the financial and job stability concerns. There are some positive tradeoffs IMO, but still, I can understand.

 

[Substance]

A few comments.

I disagree with LAdoc about FP as a career. Way better job security than any other area in pathology (true shortage and can't outsource FP). Look at AAFS or NAME job postings if curious - there are always at least 10-15 openings in the US and Canada. There ain't enough of us, and plenty of white guys in the 50s who will retire within a decade (unlike diagnostic path, FP is physically taxing - you try examining a 230kg decedent). And north of the border, the pay is much better, although the gap seems to be narrowing a bit. Los Angeles just appointed a new chief, reported salary 275K.

I never watched Dr. Bao's testimony, but heard it was quite awkward. Did follow Dr. DiMaio testifying for the defense, and believe Zimmerman owes the man his freedom. DiMaio looked at the findings and basically said, "yeah, Zimmerman's story is possible given the evidence" and that clearly equaled resonated with jurors that perhaps Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. Perhaps = reasonable doubt = not guilty. As a young FP, this case was a bit of a textbook on how to act and how not to act on the witness stand.

Call me a xenophobe if you must, but doing pathology in a foreign language is hard, and for FP it's just worse. I honestly can't imagine the difficulty of writing my reports in French, or any non-native language. FP reports often must convey subtle details, and we do that through precise punctuation, specific adverbs and adjectives, and how we use written and spoken language. It's tough enough doing it in my native tongue. I do know some English as a second language FPs who are very good, both as pathologists and in their command of written and spoken English, but even more than other areas of path, I think the bar for proficiency in the language where you work must be set extremely high for FPs.

As to the lawsuit, this will probably be ugly on both side for a long time. Dr. Bao is probably rather worried for his financial future, as he may be worried about his ability to find future employment as an FP in the US, given the notoriety of his case.

I find it strange that the one field where every word matters has the highest number of practicing ESL IMGs.

 

[mlw03]

I find it strange that the one field where every word matters has the highest number of practicing ESL IMGs.

Agree with your sentiment, not sure if it's true, and doubt there are numbers out there to evaluate. There definitely are ESL FPs in the US and Canada (excluding the Québecois), but there are many, many native speakers. Most of the big names in FP (DiMaio, Dolinak, Hanzlick, Frost, Milroy, and others) are American, Canadian, or other native English speakers .

But your point is well-taken. The presence or absence of an adjective can drastically change a forensic pathology report, or the particular one chosen.

 

[LADoc00]

I find it strange that the one field where every word matters has the highest number of practicing ESL IMGs.

Aint that the truth brother!

Can I get an AMEN?

 

[member0007]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG-YmUnHQd4

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/thomas-roberts/52400331#52400331

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWwhm5psWw

i dunno, his testimony could have been fine but forensics is a political position where people have to commit one way or another to something that is not inherently defensible based on the current politics however, the doc seemed to give a good expert opinion on the matter in his testimony that was rooted on sound information, such as 'loose contact' vs 'hard contact'. dr. bao to a question - "i have no fact, i have zero opinion." the defense managed to cloud the issues to detract from the facts. it's unfortunate that he didn't simply quit or resign, but i suppose when you respect yourself and actually, do good work that testifies to the facts and the expert opinion of a case, (as he had learned from the fp board exam, mentors) such as trayvon martin's case, you should be able to do so without being subjected to termination. i don't think that the defense's expert forensics guy did a better job.

 

[Torsed]

Why did he (Dr. Bao) comment on the time it took T.M. to die? And then changed it? I wouldn't have speculated on that, ever. He did act like a clown. Defense lawyers must have been laughing over drinks that night.

 

[gbwillner]

Pretty sure he was fired for stating publicly that the prosecution threw the case, not because he was a shiatty FP (which I think he probably is).

 

[mlw03]

No point speculating, especially with an open lawsuit. I personally would never be specific to a number of minutes on something like survival time after an injury. Adjectives such as "not long" or "up to a few minutes" is probably as specific as I would be - too many variables. Short of decapitation or other massive head trauma, I don't think I'd ever say someone would die "immediately."

 

[member0007]

No point speculating, especially with an open lawsuit. I personally would never be specific to a number of minutes on something like survival time after an injury. Adjectives such as "not long" or "up to a few minutes" is probably as specific as I would be - too many variables. Short of decapitation or other massive head trauma, I don't think I'd ever say someone would die "immediately."

Ehh. That's not how it works. Dr. Bao has a good legal argument. It's likely to be substantiated but I am not a lawyer.

 

[mlw03]

What's his argument?