Trying to Help My Sister Out

[Knocked Up]

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Hi all;

Long time since I ventured back to SDN lol. Anyway I'm trying to help my sister out and I don't really know anything about MSTP admissions so it's hard for me to guide her in the right direction. She was very heavy on research in undergrad.

GPA: ~4.0

MCAT: 31 (this will hurt her...she she severe test anxiety and had to take the exam 3 times to attain this. From my perspective this is by far the worst aspect of her application. )

Research: 4 years in undergrad (every summer too). Same lab. No publications. Her PI, whom I also know personally, wrote her a glowing rec of 3 pages (yeah 3 frickin pages). He's a hot shot researcher too.

Awards: Goldwater Scholar. (I am an extremely proud brother for steering her into this and basically winning it for her.) Do Goldwater scholarships make a difference for MSTP?

Presentations: SFN, AAAS --- first author posters

ECs: with my guidance, trust me guys, they are pretty damn good. I helped this kid as much as I could. She has everything down pack.

Hook: She was founder and editor of a peer reviewed research journal.

Now, here is where I need help. She graduated and is staying home to care for our parents. She works as a lab tech at a university near our home. The problem is that this university isn't highly ranked. The PI she is working with is paying her well ($20 an hour) and she has her own project. The PI also has an NIH grant from what I can see on grant reporter. We don't know if she will publish in time for June or not. She will definitely be submitting to SFN again and presenting at the conference first author again next year (while applying tho). I want her to leave the lab next year and go to a place like Harvard or my medical school to get some name recognition. Her current PI at will also write her a glowing rec no matter what, I'm sure. My sister is basically the grad student in the lab lol.

So the question is for MSTP: what do I suggest to her. Stay where she is or start applying to big names. What would be best for her, sustained research project or get some name recognition? She already has sustained research (3 projects in the same lab over 4 years). Does she need Harvard/Yale backing to bolster her app?

The things I really see hurting her are her MCAT, no publications, and no research at top 20 institutions.

 

[StIGMA]

Nice username for a dude- I'm sure you are a great role model for your sister.

The things I really see hurting her are her MCAT, no publications, and no research at top 20 institutions.

Publications do not matter significantly for admissions. Undergraduates have little say/input on whether a project is published, and program directors know this. If her PI's letter is incredible, that matters far more (combined with her experience) than being on a publication. This will not negatively affect her.

Where you do research does not matter. Who you do research with (and how significant your involvement is) matters. They do not need to be big name, but they need to be doing good science. Productive labs with R01 grants are a proxy measure for good science, as is a good publication record (for the PI). Spending time at Harvard or Yale wouldn't mean anything if the science was not good. If time was spent with a very good scientist, that would be beneficial but not much more so than doing the research anywhere else.

As you thought, her MCAT score is going to be the biggest hurdle. The average score for MSTP candidates who received more than 1 offer was 35.7 (3.4 std deviation) back in 2007. This average has certainly increased since then with computerized testing and hence people taking the exam more times until they get a 'good score'. This was not nearly as frequent before computerized testing.

If I were in her shoes, I would forget about everything I was doing and focus on getting a higher MCAT score. She already has a significant problem (and lack of a good adviser) for taking it so many times while being unprepared. This site recommends a 34 as a reasonable score that with otherwise good credentials will allow a few interviews. With a 31 on 3 attempts, she is unlikely to have much luck with MSTP admissions, although she may get into an MD/PhD program if she applies broadly enough. She may also get into an MSTP, although she likely could not be picky with programs and will need to apply very broadly.

A higher MCAT score (34+, preferably 36+) would be worth more than any extra time spent in research, especially because she has already demonstrated aptitude in that area. A Goldwater scholarship is indeed impressive and further suggests that she is among the top students at her college (as a school can only select 4 applicants per year).

Programs want to be able to trust their students to do well in the medical school phase- especially on the standardized tests such as step 1. A high MCAT score suggests that the student will not cause any problems in the future for the program. Lastly, a very high GPA with a lower MCAT score weakens the GPA. A 4.0 or near 4.0 student should be scoring higher than her peers on the MCAT, so a higher MCAT score for her would be doubly beneficial by securing the benefit of her high GPA.

 

[Knocked Up]

Thanks for the complement on the username. I assume you also like my avatar and location also. Unfortunately, my sister is nothing like me. She is a nice, respectable, and caring young lady. I was not able to act as a role model in that respect.

I don't see there be any way of getting my sister to study for the MCAT ever again. I guess it kind of runs in the family...my MCAT score was the weakest portion of my application (and I turned out well enough). I know MSTP admissions are another beast tho.

So her PI has an R-something grant as reported on the NIH grant finder. My issue is that I feel that she is going to need to be doing research with a big name at a big place to supplement (compensate?) for her lack-luster academics. My sister is a lot of things, but a 36 on the MCAT she is not (and I love her to death but, this is the truth).

Personally, I don't agree with the suggestion for her to drop her research and devote her time 100% to the MCAT. Isn't she applying for a Phd spot also? Don't Phd programs like to see sustained research experiences? What if she only goes up 1-2 points, then what? She just went through 3-4 months of nothing when she could have been working toward a publication. Are you sure that is the route to go? I'm sure schools want to see astronomical scores, but to what end are we talking about here.

For the record here, I care more about her future than my own. I tried to advise her down the right road.

 

[StIGMA]

If it is unlikely that the MCAT score will improve significantly (3+ points), then focusing on more research experience is reasonable. It just would not help as much as a higher MCAT score, which is why I made that suggestion.

Her academics are not a weakness in any respeect. They are as great a strength as her research experience- near 4.0, Goldwater scholar- she is the top of the top in this respect.

From what you mentioned regarding her research experience, that is solid as well. She did what appears to be the maximum possible during college, and she is even doing more now after college. More research would not affect her chances significantly.

It would make the most sense for her to get an application ready and apply. In the meantime, focusing on research makes sense.

I just don't see how it would make sense to move somewhere else and spend 1-2 years in another lab before applying (I am presuming she wouldn't join another lab just for a temporary duration). You say that she is applying next year? Why not this year (if personal reasons, no need to say them)?

If she can join another lab and not wait out a whole application cycle, that may make sense, especially if she wants to explore a new area of research. Another rec letter from a researcher is nice, but it is not worth it to postpone an application cycle to get it. Her application is great, and the MCAT is within a reasonable (but not great) range. She has everything in an application to apply right now. I don't know why she would wait until next year or the year after that to even apply (to matriculate a year after that!).

Whatever she chooses, she will need to apply to many (15+, perhaps even around 25-30) programs. There is no way to predict how many interviews she may get, especially because some programs look for people like her- absolutely outstanding application and would make a tremendous MD/PhD student but unlikely to get into a top program. So good MSTPs but not the top ones may have an eye for her as a good prospect. No way to tell until she applies!

 

[ironlionzion]

I'm curious...how does one become a founder and editor of a peer reviewed journal without every being published in one?

 

[Knocked Up]

STIGMA: I hear you on the MCAT. You don't need to retract any harsh criticism you have here. The very last thing I can afford in this situation is for my sister to get hurt. She has had a very rough life and (because of personal, family reasons) is not really in a strong position to get emotionally beat up by the application cycle (I could handle rejections, I don't know if she can to the same extent). Please, if you think she is going to tank the season because of her MCAT score, let me know right now so I can stop her before any damage occurs. Also, it's ok to note that her academics are sub-par. Both I and my sister (for that matter) would readily acknowledge that her score is rather poor. I got away with a similar score (and similar situation) for MD only, but I know she will have a much harder time with MSTP admissions over this.

I think I am going to advise her to throw in some MD only to schools like Jefferson, FIU, Mercer et al.

So, for her history. She graduated college the year after me. During college she worked in the same lab for 4 years. She is 1 year out, working at a no-name university with a PI with R15 funding (I think that is what I am seeing on the grant reporter). She is going to apply in June (I am pushing for her to apply as early as possibly, given that I know what applying late in a cycle is like). I want her to leave the lab in June/July and head up the Boston area and get a job at MGH/Brigham/Children's so that she can work with a PI with clout. This would still be biomedical research, and I guess a temporary position. Or, do you just suggest that she stays put where she is now and continues to hopefully get some publlications thru during the cycle. From my understanding it is just her, the PI, and some random undergrads floating around once or twice a week. She does everything in the lab.

Any advice would be great. And as a said before, be as harsh as possible. I need to know so I can help her. I trust this website for help so that I can in turn help her.

On the journal, I should have clarified...it is university based spanning across several universities. It is not professional. Same setup but for undergrads and graduate students. I am pretty sure there is a website for it...

 

[Neuronix]

I don't really know anything about MSTP admissions so it's hard for me to guide her in the right direction.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539268

MCAT: 31 (this will hurt her...she she severe test anxiety and had to take the exam 3 times to attain this. From my perspective this is by far the worst aspect of her application. )

It just goes downhill from here. Step 1, Step 2, clinical shelfs, Step 3, in-service exams, licensing exams, pre-lim defense, thesis defense, etc... The MCAT seems like cake now compared to my written and oral licensing boards. It may be best to address these anxiety issues now before embarking on a career involving a great deal of anxiety.

The things I really see hurting her are her MCAT, no publications, and no research at top 20 institutions.

Nobody cares about this "top 20 institutions". Keep doing research. The value of publications are overrated as well. She should just apply, but keep in mind that her MCAT is going to be a significant handicap regardless of everything else. She may still get into an MSTP or non-MSTP MD/PhD program.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539268



It just goes downhill from here. Step 1, Step 2, clinical shelfs, Step 3, in-service exams, licensing exams, pre-lim defense, thesis defense, etc... The MCAT seems like cake now compared to my written and oral licensing boards. It may be best to address these anxiety issues now before embarking on a career involving a great deal of anxiety.



Nobody cares about this "top 20 institutions". Keep doing research. The value of publications are overrated as well. She should just apply, but keep in mind that her MCAT is going to be a significant handicap regardless of everything else. She may still get into an MSTP or non-MSTP MD/PhD program.

Agreed. Go have her see an education psychologist to see how she can work on her standardized test issues. She's clearly intelligent enough to do better with that GPA, unless it was obtained doing crap courses at a crappy university.

MCAT is nothing compared to Step 1, the many shelf exams we take, Step 2, Step 3, and the specialty boards. She needs to learn how to 1.) assimilate a ton of information, 2.) apply it accurately to address the test question, and 3.) economize her time so she gets through (nearly) everything on time. All of these can be dealt with through practice and hard work, given sufficient baseline intelligence.

Harvard/Yale research will not help her with the MCAT or any future standardized test she'll have to take.

 

[Knocked Up]

Right. She went to a better undergrad than me. Def in the top 40 (maybe top 30) ugrad institutions. She was a Neurobio major just like myself. Def didn't take crap courses at a crap school.

I'm just suggesting the elite research institution to allow her to gain credibility and somehow supplement (make up for) her crappy academic performance (by MSTP standards). She's a wonderful researcher, better than I was (or am). I think the psychologist suggestion is actually a good one. I just don't think the results will be immediate enough for this coming cycle though and she doesn't want to take any more time off...and I don't blame her.

So the suggestion here is to just stick with her same lab and just apply in June/July? She will present at SFN again and I can't see her not submitting a manuscript by the end of the summer. From what you guys are saying though, it seems like the MCAT will screw her over no matter what. I will talk to her about possibly taking the MCAT over again, but guys, she will be on her 4th attempt by then. She might go down and she is doomed for MD/Phd and MD. This is a tough situation.

Are there any schools that are more research heavy in their admissions than MCAT. I'm guessing the usual suspects are MCAT ****** for the MD/Phd too: Upenn, Umich, Uchicago, NW, Harvard, Yale.

Any way you guys could recommend some schools here. I'll have her apply to my med school and in state options, but could you guys recommend any others.

Thanks for all the help. As I suspected she is going to have to apply very broadly because of her lackluster numbers.

 

[debateg]

Her MCAT score going to be a serious issue. The sad fact is that many medical schools seem to have a cutoff for MCAT scores and simply will veto you if it's too low. As others have pointed out, the MCAT was significantly easier than all the other standardized exams we take in med school and beyond, so I do agree that she should meet with someone to help her with standardized exams. Some people are good at them, and some people are not. Retaking the MCAT over and over is going to be expensive and frustrating. I say just let it go and accept it is a limitation of application.

Working for a no-name PI is not going to help. Working as a tech is often viewed as a holding pattern before medical school, and I've found that very high functioning technicians (e.g. who function like grad students or post-docs in terms of planning, executing, performing experiments, writing papers, presenting at conferences, etc) often do not get the credit they deserve. I guess everyone doubts that they could do it themselves.

For applicants who are not super strong, it's often who you know and not what you know. Here is my advice: network, network, and then network some more. I used to think that getting favors called in was cheating because I would get things that I did not merit, but the reality is those things are the major currency of science and medicine, so use them.

1) Ask around from her PI and other faculty who she tangentially knows for help. Even though her PI may not be big, he may know someone who is, or he may know someone at her institution who can make a few phone calls or set her up with someone.

2) Call up the MSTP programs she's interested. See if she can talk to the directors, express interest in their program. Be honest about the low MCAT. Ask them what she should do to improve her application. They often will be very frank about it.

3) Track down MSTP directors and other important people at conferences. Request to meet up with them to express interest in their programs to discuss. Could also track down potential mentors at a bigger name school. I know a physician from Chile who cold e-mailed the chair of oncology at my institution, met up with him a conference, and got a job as a result.

4) Identify where she could reasonably get in as MSTP and get a job there with someone who has clout, e.g. someone on the MSTP committee, a department chair, etc. Getting your foot in the door at a place and getting a letter from a local scientist will a stellar reputation will drastically improve her chances getting in there.

5) Be willing to be MD-only at a research heavy school with lots of funding for MD students to do research. It is much easier to apply to the MD/PhD program once you're a med student and spent a year getting a masters (which can turn into a PhD project). Alternatively, don't do a PhD and get into research as a fellow, which has many advantages over the MD/PhD as others have discussed elsewhere.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I'm curious...how does one become a founder and editor of a peer reviewed journal without every being published in one?

I think it's safe to say it's an undergrad research "journal" exclusive to her college (with the "peers" being other undergrads). We had one back at my alma matter as well.

 

[gutonc]

I think it's safe to say it's an undergrad research "journal" exclusive to her college (with the "peers" being other undergrads). We had one back at my alma matter as well.

Still doesn't explain how she couldn't get her work published in her own "journal."