U of Chicago and Northwestern

[m3unsure]

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I'm wondering what everybody thinks of these two guys in Chitown. According to the "rumor mill," here is info on both below. I am hoping that recent graduates of both programs or current people can enlighten me so I can get some kind of semi-objective data. Please PM if you wish. I'd like to know ALL OF THE DIRT from the inside if there are any brave souls to criticize their own program rather than keep going with a political agenda to brag and recruit. This whole three year commitment thing is already an injustice compared to other professions and I would like to make a choice without regretting it.

NWH
More like private practice versus pure academics
Long work hours (probably getting worse with new hospital)
Many bad attendings (how many really?)
PD not a resident advocate (so then who looks after you? how about the education director or dept chair?)

UofC
Easily can get your residency extended (somebody mentioned doing bad on inservice exams and then inane things like not getting an important page and being blacklisted!!😱 😱 😱 )
Most faculty are uptight 👎 (sick of hearing that you get this everywhere; big difference between some and most)

 

[cchoukal]

I can only tell you about my program, University of Chicago.

1) I don't know how "easily" a person gets asked to extend their time here, but it happens rarely enough that I don't know anyone here now who's been asked to do it. My understanding is in the past it has been due to repeated poor performance on the ITE and AKT.

2) I disagree that most attendings are uptight. I can think of 3 for sure, but they are, ya know, responsible for people's lives so... My own experience as a CA1 has been that the attendings range quite a bit in terms of their origins (PP vs always been in academics), training (east, west, midwest), approach (virtually always GA vs experimenting/regional/TIVA), teaching (never see 'em btwn induction and emergence vs. hounding you with articles, pimping, etc.), and demeanor (rigid and demanding vs patient and forgiving).

3) Our work hours actually aren't so hot. I know people on the trail say they hear we're the "cushier" program of the two you mentioned, but I'd say I average 65-75 hrs/week.

I'd be happy to answer specific questions via PM, but I have to say, if you've interviewed at these 2 programs and these are truly the impressions you got from each, I'd think carefully about ranking either one. If you haven't yet interviewed and these are just things you've heard, well, I guess then I'd be sorry to have wasted my time writing this post.

 

[m3unsure]

The original post refers to the rumor mill and not what was seen during the interview process. However, the interview process is something formulated and only tries to enhance all the positives and none of the negatives. In an ideal world, people would tell you everything that you should expect rather than dump some surprise on you later. In other fields, you can find a new job if not content after say a year, but with medical specialities, you are stuck for the most part. People may say well tough it out or compare it to other tough specialties like gen surgery to mitigate things, but that's not healthy for 3/4 years. I have seen it and wouldn't want to be them.

So, I'm just looking for more and more information from various people who have been through the programs to balance out all the pros and cons. No program will be utopia; just doesn't happen in life, but hopefully be somewhere near it.

 

[bullard]

The work hours at NWH have actually been getting better and better because the program is expanding the number of residents per class. Internship here is a bitch; that's not going to change. As you guessed, it is the education director, not the PD, who is our resident advocate. I do not really know what your first point about NWU actually means.

As for UChicago, I met a resident there who had his residency extended. Not sure why. Who cares? No sense in going into residency expecting to fail your AKTs...

I'm wondering what everybody thinks of these two guys

NWH
More like private practice versus pure academics
Long work hours (probably getting worse with new hospital)
Many bad attendings (how many really?)
PD not a resident advocate (so then who looks after you? how about the education director or dept chair?)

UofC
Easily can get your residency extended (somebody mentioned doing bad on inservice exams and then inane things like not getting an important page and being blacklisted!!😱 😱 😱 )
Most faculty are uptight 👎 (sick of hearing that you get this everywhere; big difference between some and most)

 

[m3unsure]

The work hours at NWH have actually been getting better and better because the program is expanding the number of residents per class. Internship here is a bitch; that's not going to change. As you guessed, it is the education director, not the PD, who is our resident advocate. I do not really know what your first point about NWU actually means.

As for UChicago, I met a resident there who had his residency extended. Not sure why. Who cares? No sense in going into residency expecting to fail your AKTs...

When you say that the hours are getting better, can you quantify that? Also, are there plans to make the residency even better in terms of workload? I assume with the upcoming women's hospital, the cases are going to go up again, and nix the addition of new residents. Any ideas brought up about that one? Sure, I should work hard, but I'd like to not be sleeping when I'm trying to read. I want to finish smart, not with just high numbers cuz the learning curve does flatten after some point.

What can you say about the faculty at NWMH? Are the bad ones really avoidable or always around (ex: OR director, Gen OR attendings)? I think that the chair and education director were the best of the bunch. Dr. Sullivan seems like a cool dude; however, is that different on the floors/OR?

And my first point is about residents being warm bodies versus actually people that you care to teach. I hear RUSH is bad about this from a recent graduate, but then the chair is supposedly changing soon.

 

[apma77]

UIC is the best program in terms of happy residents and good training in the city..not a big name but excellent training. a few bad apple attendings do exist but everyone knows who they are and try to avoid them as much as possible.
there is no such thing as the perfect program!

 

[m3unsure]

I know I won't find something to be perfect, but hopefully perfect as it can be for me. Just looking for people's honest experiences to guide my decision since 1 day impressions are not the best way to judge people/programs. I'm still open to more objective data about programs. PM if you'd like. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Stimulate]

I can only tell you about my program, University of Chicago.

1) I don't know how "easily" a person gets asked to extend their time here, but it happens rarely enough that I don't know anyone here now who's been asked to do it. My understanding is in the past it has been due to repeated poor performance on the ITE and AKT.

2) I disagree that most attendings are uptight. I can think of 3 for sure, but they are, ya know, responsible for people's lives so... My own experience as a CA1 has been that the attendings range quite a bit in terms of their origins (PP vs always been in academics), training (east, west, midwest), approach (virtually always GA vs experimenting/regional/TIVA), teaching (never see 'em btwn induction and emergence vs. hounding you with articles, pimping, etc.), and demeanor (rigid and demanding vs patient and forgiving).

3) Our work hours actually aren't so hot. I know people on the trail say they hear we're the "cushier" program of the two you mentioned, but I'd say I average 65-75 hrs/week.

I'd be happy to answer specific questions via PM, but I have to say, if you've interviewed at these 2 programs and these are truly the impressions you got from each, I'd think carefully about ranking either one. If you haven't yet interviewed and these are just things you've heard, well, I guess then I'd be sorry to have wasted my time writing this post.

We just had a resident transfer into our program from Univ of Chicago, and is much happier at our program. The resident is not discussing the reasons for transfer, which is very professional, so unfortunately I can't elaborate but did want to pass that along. Perhaps the original poster on this thread can ask some of the current residents at U of C if he/she wants more information about why someone would leave that program.

 

[sevo85288]

I recently graduated from the NW program. Yes, the hours were long, but it was an amazing experience. I graduated with confidence in every aspect of anesthesiology with extremely good experience in cardiac (tons of cases, sick, sick patients...and the TEE education was great) regional, OB, pediatrics, Neuro, CCM and transplant anesthesia. I am very happy I chose NW because I tend to think volume of cases matters.(for me at least) I know it sucks doing tons of cases day and night but this is how one gains experience. The transition to private practice was a smooth and I have done tons of 'scarry' cases alone as an attending without breaking a sweat.
I thought most of the attendings were great and the program is fair to residents. Great hospital and location as well.

Good luck.

 

[m3unsure]

We just had a resident transfer into our program from Univ of Chicago, and is much happier at our program. The resident is not discussing the reasons for transfer, which is very professional, so unfortunately I can't elaborate but did want to pass that along. Perhaps the original poster on this thread can ask some of the current residents at U of C if he/she wants more information about why someone would leave that program.

Stimulate, are you at Clevland Clinic? What year was this resident? Is that resident from that area and not use to a big city? I know that you don't know the exact reason, but I'm sure something came across from talking with this person.

And for the U of C residents, any hints on why this happened? I can guess the person did something bad carelessly, but then I have heard firsthand of faculty "isolating/abusing" residents to eventually make them unhappy and leave (not referring to U of C). I think addressing this issue is helpful from inside or the resident involved.

PM if you'd like to avoid publicly talking about it. Once again, I am here to just figure out something else about the programs that I am interested in. Mudslinging is not my intent.

 

[m3unsure]

Any last words about these two institutions in Chicago? Just can't get enough info to rank them.

I guess a last good Q is:

Where do people go for fellowships? End of staying or actually going to other good joints for that specialty like CC or pain? Kind of like to avoid inbreeding.

Who has trouble? People not get 'em?

 

[cchoukal]

fellowships from the U of C: this year we're sending to UCSF and hopkins for pain, peds to hopkins, Children's Memorial (Northwestern), and cardiac to UCLA and UTSW.

 

[GassiusClay]

Hey guys 🙂,

I'm new and saw this post. Very helpful so far. But..........how would you rank them by reputation? Harvard, UCSF are hands down awesome by name, but where are these 2 in the whole country? Do ppl get jobs on coasts coming from UChicago or NW like SoCal😎?

A.) Top 20 B.) Top 30 C.) Much lower

Is UIC's rep good too? Or sort of blah blah when you look at the other guys in town and across the country?

 

[medicineman12]

Did anyone interview at both programs this year who can share an opinion? Which program will allow for better networking across the country?

 

[Philosiraptor]

Did anyone interview at both programs this year who can share an opinion? Which program will allow for better networking across the country?

That's a very subjective question. Both programs are big name, you should research their Chairs to see where they trained/worked/how much they publish(ed)/how prominent they are.

 

[medicineman12]

That's a very subjective question. Both programs are big name, you should research their Chairs to see where they trained/worked/how much they publish(ed)/how prominent they are.

Should have been more specific. Any comments on residents getting their training extended due to some of the less serious reasons mentioned earlier in the thread?

 

[smk9]

M3unsure,

I can't speak on behalf of NW... But...

I did a month of anesthesia at U of C, I think it's a fantastic program. You have to do A LOT to be held back or banished (scoring below 25th percentile multiple times, pushing the wrong drugs and being careless over and over, etc.) If you're struggling they come alongside you and help by setting up mentorship, etc etc. I never saw anyone being singled out.

Program is far from stuck-up. 98% of the people there were great, down to earth, willing to teach, and easy to get along with. There is an environment of teaching that comes from the top down and permeates the place. They are bringing in lots of young new attendings (many who did their residency at U of C, went to high level fellowships [Stanford, Brigham], then came back). I think it speaks volumes that many people return to the program.

Patients are sick. AS HELL. You will most likely do less volume than Rush or NW, but you'll be challenged a lot. I was impressed with complexity of the patients and I got to see many of the zebras we have only seen on paper (yet manage to show up on USMLEs.)

Dr. Apfelbaum is the past president of ASA so everyone knows his name and hes got a lot of connections. Many CA-3s attested to the fact that he made calls on their behalf to their top fellowship choices.

New hospital is gorgeous. Should be a great place to work.

Potential Downsides:
To some, the location. Hyde Park is on the south side of Chicago. University of Chicago campus is beautiful and very safe but as you increase your distance from it the areas gets a little shady (specifically southward). I never had any problems or saw anything troubling and I took public trans all the time (even from and into the "dangerous areas.") President Obama has a house towards the north side of campus in a nicer area. But NW has the location beat if you want to be in the city. Very few residents lived in Hyde Park. You're looking at 20-30 minute commute via car from South Loop (where most residents live.)

There is no U of C "way," so you'll learn how to do things many different ways. This can be good or bad.

Lectures every morning at 630 am, except on Wednesday (7), you will have to do a few keyword lectures, grand rounds, and the mock orals are in front of a live studio audience.