UChicago vs Yale

[johnny3022]

Hey just want to see what people think of these two programs. I am starting to figure out my rank list and these two are creeping towards the top. From interviews, it seemed everyone was happy and most CA-3's got positions (whether fellowship or PP/academic jobs) they wanted. I think both provide great training in a good environment. UChicago is in the lead by a hair cause Chicago > New Haven. Which is better in terms of reputation? How about fellowship placement? Any one heard of anything malignant about either program? Thanks for the input.

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[randomgas]

Currently a CA-3 at Yale, and absolutely love it, and am doing a cardiothoracic fellowship in NYC next year. I think both programs are fantastic, and you will be a very well trained anesthesiologist coming from either, and will be happy at work with either.

First, to specifically answer your questions:

Both have an excellent reputation, in Chicago, U Chicago probably has a better reputation, in the Northeast, Yale may take the lead.

Truly cannot say there is anything malignant about Yale. They treat us sooo well. Attendings are mostly on a first name basis, buy us dinner daily, give us a lot of educational money for books, travel, iphones, etc, teach on their own post call days (ie just this morning), and the list goes on and on. Regional is considered our biggest weakness. I just finished my regional rotation last week, definitely did a lot more blocks than advertised, and really think I will feel comfortable when I leave in a few months.

And Fellowship placement I know we do very well, I don't know anything about that in terms of U Chicago, but I assume they also do very well. Last year we had three residents go to CHOP for pedi, Columbia for Pedi, one to UCSF, one to Rush, and one to cleveland clinic for pain, Harvard for CT, and the list goes on. I would think U.Chicago gets good spots too though.

I think a big part of the decision will be will you be happy in New Haven, on the east coast, in a moderately sized city, or will you be happier in a very big city, in the mid-west. Think about where your family and friends are, and would you want to be close to them, or it wont matter.

Another thing to think about is where you would like to end up. If you think you want to end up on the East Coast, especially the Northeast, it can definitely benefit you to train here. If you want to end up near Chicago, that can help. But like I said, either way, I think you will be happy in the end. For fellowships/jobs though, it certainly doesn't hurt to have a phone call from Dr Barash, Hines, Sinatra, Schwartz, Marschall.......the list continues. And I know for me, having these people on speed dial in my cell phone, is something that will be benefit me for the rest of my career.

 

[johnny3022]

Thanks for the info; it was quite helpful. I'm a CA-3 at UChicago feels like posting something similar

 

[El Dooderino]

In the same tier of programs so I'd imagine opportunities after either similar. Next it comes down to location, with Chicago>New Haven. Go with Chicago

 

[cchoukal]

Thanks for the info; it was quite helpful. I'm a CA-3 at UChicago feels like posting something similar

I've done as much in the past, and you can probably search for it. I graduated there and did fellowship at UCSF where I'm now on faculty. Fellowships at Hopkins, Brigham, Stanford, UCSF, Penn and others during my time there. Private practice in and around the city (better jobs were obtained in the burbs, to be honest), bay area, and vegas come to mind. Others took PP jobs "back home" (Milwaukee, Ohio, etc.).

If you want to work hard and be a team player (read, ask questions, get along with others), you'll be treated well there.

If you're mobile, I'd train where you think you want to settle (but if you do a fellowship, that will apply to THAT training; you often end up near where you finish training because that's where the groups know you).

BTW, I LOVED Chicago. Great place to spend 4 years. I'm in SF now and I think about going back all the time.

 

[ucres48]

I wouldn't come to UofC again if I had to do it over.

It's malignant; we're treated like interns by surgical residents in the ICU. Some ICU staff (one of our own!) treat us inferior.

In the OR, you get a lot of teaching, however.

But fellowships, in general, are easy to get into. I have friends who went to less reputable programs, now ending up at big-name places for fellowship.

Yes, you gotta be a team player. But this is true in any anesthesia residency. I mean, you're working alongside a surgeon, whom at times thinks he's God, and if you can't be a team player, go into a different field. Just find a place where there is no hierarchy, and a place where respect is given to all.

Residents in the past have had their res extended for silly reasons. One gave a presentation that was mockery, yet funny, but the staff members still shake their heads when it's brought up. Although he did finish on time. Another almost had his extended for getting into an argument with an OB attg.

Our pd is ok, but takes push back from surgeons easily.

We have a lot of CRNAs, most are good, some are lazy.

There is a ton of politics in the ICU. So if you're thinking about going into CC, don't come here. To make a decision to write an order, requires approx 6 phone calls and 8 text messages. BS...

Look carefully. I wish I could tell you stuff about Yale, but I don't have information.

 

[Emvious]

So I wrote a big long reply that the forums ate, so this is the short and sweet version...

I'm a CA-2 at UChicago and I'd come here again in a heartbeat. I'm really happy here and feel like it's a great program overall.

Sure, there are politics in the ICU. If you want to but heads you will catch hell, but I get along fine with the surgical attendings. Some of our numbers could be better, but on the other hand I don't feel like cheap labor and have time to read.

We send people to great fellowships but so do many other programs. The program does have a great reputation and the administration does a lot to get you where you want to go.

I think the attendings overall are very easy to get along with though most are called Dr Whatever. Most spend plenty of time teaching. There's a good variety of opinion which at times can be frustrating but in the end is a benefit since you learn many different ways to do things.

Things like location, proximity to family, weather and even less "important" factors should definitely be considered in a rank list. You can go to most programs in the country and come out just fine. Figure out what is important to you and find a program that works. There's no one perfect program for everyone.

Feel free to PM me for more info or with any specific questions about UChicago.

 

[sevo85288]

If you want a good CC experience the last place you want to go is a place like Uof C and UCSF. I know that sounds silly. But here is the reason. At these places where the attendings are considered gods, interns and residents get very little pt mgmt experience. They carry out the orders of the attendings and fellows. versus a small community/teaching hospital where you are the only one in the ICU and are actually making all the decisions. If you want the big name and research then go for UofC but if you want to learn then look at a smaller program with fewer gods of critical care.

 

[cchoukal]

If you want a good CC experience the last place you want to go is a place like Uof C and UCSF. I know that sounds silly. But here is the reason. At these places where the attendings are considered gods, interns and residents get very little pt mgmt experience. They carry out the orders of the attendings and fellows. versus a small community/teaching hospital where you are the only one in the ICU and are actually making all the decisions. If you want the big name and research then go for UofC but if you want to learn then look at a smaller program with fewer gods of critical care.

Since I trained at both of these places and practice at one (thanks for calling me a god, by the way), I have to respectfully disagree. I think it would be hard to spend time at either place and still have that opinion, but maybe that's the reputation that floats around.

At the U of C, I rotated through the MICU (pulmonary run, mostly) and the CT ICU (anesthesia), totaling 6 months and in both, the service was largely resident run. The MICU had fellows which, to me, seemed mostly invisible. The attending rounded in the AM and then disappeared. I was always very impressed by how effective and autonomous the residents were (in retrospect, maybe this was bad for patient safety, although the residents were very strong).

At UCSF, I think the resident experience is diluted a bit, but not for the reason you cited. Because it's largely a consultative service, there is less autonomy for decision-making, which I think reduces the educational benefit. That said, at least the medicine residents see the ICU from both sides (as the ICU consultant and, at other times, as the primary admitting floor team), which probably has some benefits. I can't speak for all the other attendings, although I worked with nearly all of them as a fellow, but I/we/they are only dogmatic about a very few things:

ARDSNet
"quality" (quotes deliberate, and beyond the scope of this conversation).

My opinion, based on the experiences listed above, would be to go to the "best" program you can, whatever that means to you, recognizing that your goal should be getting you to whatever comes next. Unless humping cases at a small, community hospital is what you want to come next, going to a small community hospital for training might unnecessarily limit your option.

My guess is that both Yale and the U of C would open similar doors and would train you well for either academics or PP.

 

[xbulletin]

I don't think any doors will be shut on you for doing residency at U chicago or Yale. The training at both places will be great. So go visit both places on interview day, see which department culture is the right fit for you. Figure out if you want to live in a large city or a small one.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

+ a bunch

Since I trained at both of these places and practice at one (thanks for calling me a god, by the way), I have to respectfully disagree. I think it would be hard to spend time at either place and still have that opinion, but maybe that's the reputation that floats around.

At the U of C, I rotated through the MICU (pulmonary run, mostly) and the CT ICU (anesthesia), totaling 6 months and in both, the service was largely resident run. The MICU had fellows which, to me, seemed mostly invisible. The attending rounded in the AM and then disappeared. I was always very impressed by how effective and autonomous the residents were (in retrospect, maybe this was bad for patient safety, although the residents were very strong).

At UCSF, I think the resident experience is diluted a bit, but not for the reason you cited. Because it's largely a consultative service, there is less autonomy for decision-making, which I think reduces the educational benefit. That said, at least the medicine residents see the ICU from both sides (as the ICU consultant and, at other times, as the primary admitting floor team), which probably has some benefits. I can't speak for all the other attendings, although I worked with nearly all of them as a fellow, but I/we/they are only dogmatic about a very few things:

ARDSNet
"quality" (quotes deliberate, and beyond the scope of this conversation).

My opinion, based on the experiences listed above, would be to go to the "best" program you can, whatever that means to you, recognizing that your goal should be getting you to whatever comes next. Unless humping cases at a small, community hospital is what you want to come next, going to a small community hospital for training might unnecessarily limit your option.

My guess is that both Yale and the U of C would open similar doors and would train you well for either academics or PP.