UCSD and Harvard Longwood for MD/PhDs

[Psychoderm]

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I liked the clinical aspects of both programs. I understand they are different, but both seemed to offer a solid clinical training. I did not feel there was much basic (cellular/molecular) neuroscience research opportunities at Longwood compared to UCSD. I'd appreciate if you guys can compare these programs from the neuroscience research perspective. I know there is a lot of basic neuroscience research at UCSD, but I have not been able to explore the same opportunities at Longwood. I know Dr. Silbersweig does neuroimaging research, but I am not interested in his work. Is any of you MD/PhDs considering any of these two programs? And why? Which program would you think opens more doors in the academic world post-residency? Which program has the reputation of producing tenure-track academicians? Thank you for your comments!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I liked the clinical aspects of both programs. I understand they are different, but both seemed to offer a solid clinical training. I did not feel there was much basic (cellular/molecular) neuroscience research opportunities at Longwood compared to UCSD. I'd appreciate if you guys can compare these programs from the neuroscience research perspective. I know there is a lot of basic neuroscience research at UCSD, but I have not been able to explore the same opportunities at Longwood. I know Dr. Silbersweig does neuroimaging research, but I am not interested in his work. Is any of you MD/PhDs considering any of these two programs? And why? Which program would you think opens more doors in the academic world post-residency? Which program has the reputation of producing tenure-track academicians? Thank you for your comments!

At your stage of the game, it is less about the program than the person--whose lab is doing the work you want to do? Whose rising star do you want to attach yourself to? You need to think of yourself as a post-doc attaching yourself to a PI who has the kind of work and academic relationships which will open doors for you, not as a student joining a program. So the more relevant questions are 1) where are they doing the research that interests you, and 2) how will they structure your time so that you can start your research career during residency.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Very good advice from OPD. I based a lot of my decision upon how much feedback I got from my potential mentors; I wound up going to the place where my now mentor took the time to send me multiple paragraphs with answers to questions, compared to some people that just didn't seem like they would really be all that interested in mentoring a resident. And I looked for some redundancy; if there's only one person at a place you could imagine working with, they might take off to become chair somewhere (happened at one place I was considering) and you'd be stuck at place with less good reason than you had before.

So find a particular group that might have some stability, and maybe enough people in the department doing similar work, and a few people who are willing to at least look up when you knock on their door. Hopefully you put your interest out enough on interview day that you got to meet at least a somebody on the same planet as you.

 

[atsai3]

Which program would you think opens more doors in the academic world post-residency? Which program has the reputation of producing tenure-track academicians?

It's not clear to me that training at a highly reputable program would have the effect you're looking for. It's more about whether you can get any research done during residency, and whether your mentor is able to identify opportunities for you (either in terms of providing you support for your own project, or allowing you to do some scutwork to get coauthorship on someone else's project). Amit Etkin is probably the only one of the most recent cohort of newly minted psychiatrists who went straight from residency to a fully funded, primarily research based, tenure track faculty position. Everyone else has to do a postdoc or struggle to make ends meet with some mixture of clinical and research time (i.e., until you hit your K). And the only way you can get a postdoc is to have produced something during residency. When you graduate from residency, you will have spent the last 4 years slaving away at writing assessments and kicking psychopaths who belong in jail out of the ED. But you will be competing against PhD's who have spent the last 6-8 years slaving away on their research.

As I mentioned in the 'Harvard v. Yale' thread, you should first be looking for a program that provides some sort of protected time for research during PGY3 and/or PGY4. This will have the effect of shortcutting your clinical training (you can't get good at therapy unless you put in the hours) -- but if by then you have decided that you are definitely looking to take the next step towards academia and you want to save a little time, then having the protected time will help you cobble together enough work, possibly even get a poster or a publication, to get a postdoc.

I don't know that it is all that important for you to identify specific investigators this early on (e.g., "I want to go to Iowa for residency so I can work with Nancy Andreasen"). First of all, a lot can change during residency, even for residents with prior PhD's who consider themselves more directed with regards to specific research interests. Second of all, even if you hit it off with a particular researcher during your sell day, things could always change and you may not get the support you expected (eg., the lab could fail to get a grant renewed, Pitt makes your mentor an offer she can't refuse, etc). I think it's more important to find a residency in a department with a deep bench in your areas of interest. Everything else (e.g., the department has a deep bench in an area of specific interest, there is a mentor there who you think is really great, etc) is just a bonus. That way, if you change your mind, or if funding/mentor circumstances change, then you can find another research home.

-AT.

 

[Doc Samson]

If you're not interested in working with Silbersweig, then you you should probably rank UCSD ahead of Longwood.

 

[nitemagi]

A lot of good advice. I would clarify whether you want to be primarily a research or clinical based tenure track professor in the long run. Atsai is right that it's hard to go straight to tenure track in the research area. It's much easier in the clinical realm. Getting tenure track position in research, from my experience, means you've distinguished yourself enough to have your own funding to essentially pay for your own position. And that does indeed usually require post-doctoral fellowship(s). We (UCSD) do have a research track that gives dedicated time for research, but doesn't really involve substantive time until year 3 (40% time by then). Most go on to do the UCSD research fellowship, which is designed to get you to the point of hopefully getting your K. But often the fellowship is a continuation of the work done during residency, so I would say it matters that you pick a lab or possible labs. Unless you plan to change institutions for fellowships, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's tougher for them to view you as an adult, so to speak, if you never leave the nest. If you're a superstar it can be different. Furthermore UCSD's research track is a separate match, and officially there's only funding for one slot this year. That may open back up down the line so matching categorical doesn't mean you won't be able to get research time, but it isn't as guaranteed as matching into the research track. So keep it in mind.

In the end your research work is going to grow out of whoever's lab you're working in, and who is mentoring you, so I'd say pick an institution that has choices for labs you might want to work in.

 

[Psychoderm]

Thank you everyone for your insightful comments!

I am interested in being primarily a research tenure track with some clinical work. I would say 80% lab research (bench research working with animal models) and 20% clinical work in an area of my interest.

I think my problem is that I have a general idea of the type of research I am interested in, but I do not have specific people in mind to work with. I am interested in understanding mechanisms of synaptic transmission and plasticity in psychiatric diseases. I have found many people at UCSD who do great work in this area; specifically, I have been impressed by all the neuroscientists at the UCSD center for neural circuits and behavior. I have no doubt that UCSD has a very strong neuroscience community, however, I am still not sure whether I would be able work with these people during my residency. Furthermore, it worries me that there is only one research track position at UCSD, and I am concerned regarding my protected time if I were to match to the regular track and not the research track. Perhaps, nitemagi, you would be able to tell me how much time I would have to do research on the regular track, and whether it is possible to do any research in the regular track.

Honestly, I have not found many basic neuroscientists at the Harvard Longwood program. And, since I am not interested in neuroimaging, working with Silberweig is not enough incentive for me to go here. However, I have gotten a very warm welcome to go there and work with anyone in the HMS neuroscience community.

Last, I would add that I am from Southern Cali, and I would like to stay in Southern Cali post-residency. So, I find it as a good opportunity to stay close to family.

I am also curious to know whether having the Harvard name would do anything additional for me in the future.

Thank you again all for you time and genuine concerns!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...Last, I would add that I am from Southern Cali, and I would like to stay in Southern Cali post-residency. So, I find it as a good opportunity to stay close to family.

I am also curious to know whether having the Harvard name would do anything additional for me in the future.

Thank you again all for you time and genuine concerns!

The Harvard name really will be less important in future faculty hiring than the reputation(s) of your mentors and the quality of the work you've done with them.

 

[billypilgrim37]

In academic psychiatry, brands like "Harvard" and "UCSD" are both elite and of similar quality. It sorta looks like you're just wanting an okay to stay in Southern California (or, maybe to "not go to Harvard"). And I think resoundingly you should feel comfortable with that decision.

 

[nitemagi]

There's not dedicated time during the first 2 years. You can often carve out a 1/2 day to 1 day a week during 3rd year, and maybe more during 4th year.

 

[Chimed]

Thank you everyone for your insightful comments!

I am interested in being primarily a research tenure track with some clinical work. I would say 80% lab research (bench research working with animal models) and 20% clinical work in an area of my interest.

I think my problem is that I have a general idea of the type of research I am interested in, but I do not have specific people in mind to work with. I am interested in understanding mechanisms of synaptic transmission and plasticity in psychiatric diseases. I have found many people at UCSD who do great work in this area; specifically, I have been impressed by all the neuroscientists at the UCSD center for neural circuits and behavior. I have no doubt that UCSD has a very strong neuroscience community, however, I am still not sure whether I would be able work with these people during my residency. Furthermore, it worries me that there is only one research track position at UCSD, and I am concerned regarding my protected time if I were to match to the regular track and not the research track. Perhaps, nitemagi, you would be able to tell me how much time I would have to do research on the regular track, and whether it is possible to do any research in the regular track.

Honestly, I have not found many basic neuroscientists at the Harvard Longwood program. And, since I am not interested in neuroimaging, working with Silberweig is not enough incentive for me to go here. However, I have gotten a very warm welcome to go there and work with anyone in the HMS neuroscience community.

Last, I would add that I am from Southern Cali, and I would like to stay in Southern Cali post-residency. So, I find it as a good opportunity to stay close to family.

I am also curious to know whether having the Harvard name would do anything additional for me in the future.

Thank you again all for you time and genuine concerns!

From what you're saying here, it sounds like UCSD is a better choice. I'm in a research track and believe me, your mentors will make a HUGE difference in your experience and what you can and cannot do. As Billy said, UCSD has an excellent reputation in neuroscience and you can do what ever you want coming out of here, assuming you show it in your work. And again, that's going to really go back to your mentors.