UCSF/Berkeley full cost vs Michigan $160k scholarship

[DSM_302.0]

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Damn. Feeling lucky to have to make this tough choice. I've narrowed it down to 2 though!

UCSF/Berkeley Joint Medical Program (JMP)
Pros:

• Super unique program I'm *so* excited about. 16 students / year embedded in the Berkeley School of Public Health for 2.5 years, all problem-based learning (no lectures!), a Masters in health sciences (usually with a public health focus, but very open-ended) before joining UCSF for 2/3rds of their Bridges curriculum.
• Close to home. I live in San Francisco, love it here, want to do residency here, want to live here and practice medicine here until I die. I have a rent-controlled apartment with dear friends and I'm loath to leave. S.O. doesn't want me to leave. My yoga studio, my zen center, my chosen family are all here and the thought of abandoning my 14 year (I'm non-trad) Bay Area roots feels devastating
• UCSF grads tend to find residency spots in the Bay; it's nicknamed UCSF: U Can Stay Forever
• UCSF is top-notch. Rankings aren't everything, but UCSF is the only school in the top 5 rankings for both research and primary care. I don't know what I want to do but I know UCSF would be able to help me get there.
• I'm queer af and UCSF is in SF and is a leader in progressive LGBTQ+ curriculum and care delivery

Cons:

• $350k / total, likely all in loans
• 5 years instead of 4

Michigan
Pros:

• 1 year pre-clinical pretty cool
• $160k merit scholarship, bringing total loans to ~$175k
• Excellent program in most of the ways UCSF is excellent

Cons:

• Not in San Francisco
• Not as easy to come back to SF for residency
• Though in liberal Ann Arbor, Michigan Medicine is still miles more conservative than UCSF. I have heard anecdotal accounts of frustrated queer students

Summary: JMP has been my dream program forever. It's all I want to do. Am I crazy to turn down $160k?

 

[Lawpy]

Personally, I wouldn't give up important factors like closeness to home, good fit and desire to match back home just to go to a cheaper place. UCSF JMP is a much better option and you should go there. It is worth the investment.

 

[SCN1a]

UCSFits an excellent program and you'll match really well on the west coast. the problem is will the extra year in school and the extra money be worth it to you? this really depends on your specialty. i'd say go where you think you'll be more comfortable and from what you said that would be UCSF

 

[ergo432]

Summary: JMP has been my dream program forever. It's all I want to do. Am I crazy to turn down $160k to go to another excellent program, but one that didn't capture my heart?

Ultimately it comes down to whether $160K is worth your intense desire to be at UCSF/UCB. Do you think your personal happiness would severely be affected in MI? Could you see yourself still being happy there? From the language of your post, it seems like your heart is really saying UCSF/UCB and you'd definitely have your support network there. In that case, I would probably lean towards UCSF/UCB.

 

[mariagefreres]

UCSF without a doubt. I'm from SF too and would have loved to stay! I couldn't imagine leaving SF and it's culture for Michigan. Add on having your family and life uprooted; its not worth 160k imo.

 

[DSM_302.0]

Ultimately it comes down to whether $160K is worth your intense desire to be at UCSF/UCB. Do you think your personal happiness would severely be affected in MI? Could you see yourself still being happy there? From the language of your post, it seems like your heart is really saying UCSF/UCB and you'd definitely have your support network there. In that case, I would probably lean towards UCSF/UCB.

Thanks for the response!
First, I updated some lines from my original post, which you quoted in your response, cuz they didn't make sense 🙂

Second, this is the million dollar (160k dollar) question, right?!: "Ultimately it comes down to whether $160K is worth your intense desire to be at UCSF/UCB."

It feels nearly impossible to put a price on how I strongly value staying in the Bay and living this life here. I think it's worth $160k?

 

[curbsideconsult]

I think you could look at this like $160,000 vs. the rest of your life (or at least a good, solid chunk of it).

 

[DSM_302.0]

I think you could look at this like $160,000 vs. the rest of your life (or at least a good, solid chunk of it).

Hmm what do you mean?

 

[curbsideconsult]

Basically just what everyone else said with a different perspective. Do you want to sacrifice your chances of getting a good gig in the Bay Area? Likely you won't if you choose to go to Michigan (you seem like a standout applicant), but I think the Bay Area residencies like to select from their own graduates (I may be wrong, you know this better than I do).

In your case, 4 years seems like a lot to sacrifice going away to school. If it were between a lower-ranked school in the Bay Area and Michigan, I would say Michigan, but it seems like all signs point Bay Area.

Who cares about a measly $160,000 in this case? You'll make up for it in spades in just a few years time. And the support you already have is priceless. So I guess it's really like choosing between $160,000 and priceless.

 

[dark_knight]

Try to see if UCSF would be willing to match Michigan's scholarship offer. But from your post I would recommend UCSF 100% of the way. You seem like you would be much happier there. Money is not the most important thing in the long run. You will make plenty of money in your career.

 

[getdown]

Thanks for the response!
First, I updated some lines from my original post, which you quoted in your response, cuz they didn't make sense 🙂

Second, this is the million dollar (160k dollar) question, right?!: "Ultimately it comes down to whether $160K is worth your intense desire to be at UCSF/UCB."

It feels nearly impossible to put a price on how I strongly value staying in the Bay and living this life here. I think it's worth $160k?

First off, congratulations on such a wonderful opportunity. I don't think you'd go wrong at either program. However, as a newly minted attending, those loans are coming back with a vengeance and kicking my ass (I went to a private med school). Makes me nautious every time I see how much I'm paying monthly plus my other expenses. Although it's hard to imagine now, having some semblance of financial security goes a long way. And SF is not a cheap place to live as well as I'm assuming you'll likely want to move out of your rent control apartment at some point. I look at it this way, if you're qualified enough to be choosing between a big scholie from UMichigan vs UCSF you're going to be just as qualified coming out of medical school. The chances of you matching back to SF, though not as high coming from Michigan, will likely still be pretty high (depending on specialty and board scores). Michigan is still a pretty good medical school. That being said, the biggest factor I see affecting your decision is having a SO that is against the move, as well as the cultural differences. If you can have UCSF match or at least give some scholarship that'll seal the deal I think.

[Cost attendance x 2 (for cost of living) x 4 years] x 6.6% interest for each year you're in residency = not cheap

 

[DSM_302.0]

First off, congratulations on such a wonderful opportunity. I don't think you'd go wrong at either program. However, as a newly minted attending, those loans are coming back with a vengeance and kicking my ass (I went to a private med school). Makes me nautious every time I see how much I'm paying monthly plus my other expenses. Although it's hard to imagine now, having some semblance of financial security goes a long way. And SF is not a cheap place to live as well as I'm assuming you'll likely want to move out of your rent control apartment at some point. I look at it this way, if you're qualified enough to be choosing between a big scholie from UMichigan vs UCSF you're going to be just as qualified coming out of medical school. The chances of you matching back to SF, though not as high coming from Michigan, will likely still be pretty high (depending on specialty and board scores). Michigan is still a pretty good medical school. That being said, the biggest factor I see affecting your decision is having a SO that is against the move, as well as the cultural differences. If you can have UCSF match or at least give some scholarship that'll seal the deal I think.

[Cost attendance x 2 (for cost of living) x 4 years] x 6.6% interest for each year you're in residency = not cheap

Thanks for the response! I wonder if the nausea would be absent with 180k of loans but present with 350k of loans.

I’m a simple man with simple tastes. Don’t plan on having children. Maybe buy a house one day. Likely do EM.

I think I’m gonna go UCSF but can’t shake the feeling that I’m crazy.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Thanks for the response! I wonder if the nausea would be absent with 180k of loans but present with 350k of loans.

I’m a simple man with simple tastes. Don’t plan on having children. Maybe buy a house one day. Likely do EM.

I think I’m gonna go UCSF but can’t shake the feeling that I’m crazy.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting $350k for UCSF? Isn't instate tuition and fees under $40k? Even with the additional cost of the joint program, that would bring you to no more than $250k I think. I know you'll be taking out additional loans for room and board, etc. but are you really going to take out ~$100-150k extra for that? I'm not trying to come off as snarky, I'm genuinely curious as to how you got to that number.

If the thought of taking out extra loans is starting to make you feel ill, look into Michigan's 4th year to see how flexible it is. I know many students who complete their last year at another location (whether it be their hometown, with their SO, etc.) and the school categorizes those as away rotations. So you could go to Michigan for 3 years, have less loans, and do all of 4th year back home and do rotations in hospitals you plan on applying to for residency.

 

[getdown]

Thanks for the response! I wonder if the nausea would be absent with 180k of loans but present with 350k of loans.

I’m a simple man with simple tastes. Don’t plan on having children. Maybe buy a house one day. Likely do EM.

I think I’m gonna go UCSF but can’t shake the feeling that I’m crazy.

I would think the lower the loan size the less nauseating it becomes. Anyway, you're not crazy for wanting to stick with UCSF. You have a lot going for you there socially that you wouldn't have in Michigan and I'm a big proponent of going to a place that makes you the happiest. Prestige and money be damned because if you're not happy no amount of money or other superfluous thing can make up for it. Go where your heart tells you to go. Good luck

 

[DBC03]

UCSF - 100%. And I'm super against taking out loans, if possible. I think there are too many things you love about it to let it pass you by. As an aside, we managed to pay off over $115k in student loans making far less than $100k (combined). The debt DOES add up, but I have absolutely no regrets taking out the loans. My undergraduate education was superb and I made contacts I would never have made if I went elsewhere. While I will likely not make a similar decision with medical school, it is because the opportunity to go to such an amazing program is not available to me, but I would make that decision if it was a possibility.

Keep us posted on your final decision!

 

[TRT7]

If true, I'm curious why UCSF isn't offering any need-based financial aid. Even if they don't this year, because you have money in the bank or something, it's reconsidered every year. Isn't parental income removed from the equation when an applicant is older than 30? You might drop in to have a talk with the FA office.

The difference in tuition is somewhat less than $150K at current prices, (given out of state pricing at Michigan, and 5 years at UC.) It will take a long time to pay that back.

If UC really says you will never receive need-based aid, you should really go to the second look at Michigan.

 

[metobe2018]

UCSF! It's a great school and you've got a good deal there!

 

[DSM_302.0]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting $350k for UCSF? Isn't instate tuition and fees under $40k? Even with the additional cost of the joint program, that would bring you to no more than $250k I think. I know you'll be taking out additional loans for room and board, etc. but are you really going to take out ~$100-150k extra for that? I'm not trying to come off as snarky, I'm genuinely curious as to how you got to that number.

If the thought of taking out extra loans is starting to make you feel ill, look into Michigan's 4th year to see how flexible it is. I know many students who complete their last year at another location (whether it be their hometown, with their SO, etc.) and the school categorizes those as away rotations. So you could go to Michigan for 3 years, have less loans, and do all of 4th year back home and do rotations in hospitals you plan on applying to for residency.

Getting my numbers from student budgets. I'm assuming I'll borrow the max allotted by the budget. They seem tight but doable for bay area cost of living.

Student budget at UCSF standard MD track is over $300k even at in-state rates:
https://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-process/student-budget
A big part of that is the $1,800 / month for an apartment. That's not a crazy amount in SF, unfortunately.

Fee Schedule | Office of the Registrar is for the first half of the program. The second half of the program fees come from the above link.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Getting my numbers from student budgets. I'm assuming I'll borrow the max allotted by the budget. They seem tight but doable for bay area cost of living.

Student budget at UCSF standard MD track is over $300k even at in-state rates:
Student Budget | Student Financial Aid
A big part of that is the $1,800 / month for an apartment. That's not a crazy amount in SF, unfortunately.

Fee Schedule | Office of the Registrar is for the first half of the program. The second half of the program fees come from the above link.

Is that $1800 split with you and SO? Or $1800 is just your share? Also, you don't have to take out the maximum. Take out as little as you can first semester (i.e. to cover tuition and fees) and then you can always increase it later on in the school year if you find you need more money. Also: ramen.

Forgot to add that if you're pretty sure you want to do primary care, you can try for NHSC where they'll pay your entire tuition and give you a living stipend.

 

[DSM_302.0]

Is that $1800 split with you and SO? Or $1800 is just your share? Also, you don't have to take out the maximum. Take out as little as you can first semester (i.e. to cover tuition and fees) and then you can always increase it later on in the school year if you find you need more money. Also: ramen.

Forgot to add that if you're pretty sure you want to do primary care, you can try for NHSC where they'll pay your entire tuition and give you a living stipend.

1800 is per-person, and my SO and I don't live together (yet?). $1800 including utilities is like..... average to a bit above average for a room in SF these days. It's nutso!

Yeah I'm looking into NHSC! And IBR plans. Crossing my fingers IBR still exists when I'm done.

 

[curbsideconsult]

1800 is per-person, and my SO and I don't live together (yet?). $1800 including utilities is like..... average to a bit above average for a room in SF these days. It's nutso!

Yeah I'm looking into NHSC! And IBR plans. Crossing my fingers IBR still exists when I'm done.

$1800 sounds reasonable for the Bay Area (outside of there, that would be insane). I have family there and a bit of my soul dies a little every time we talk about their living expenses. So I guess you will be taking out at least $300k. My bad. But still, it seems like UCSF is the way to go in your situation.

Another consideration, though: have you been to Michigan (or anywhere midwest/badlands/east coast) in the winter??? If you've never felt your bones ache, well, you will. And sometimes the cold hits you so hard you feel like you've lost your breath. I still love winter though.

 

[DSM_302.0]

$1800 sounds reasonable for the Bay Area (outside of there, that would be insane). I have family there and a bit of my soul dies a little every time we talk about their living expenses. So I guess you will be taking out at least $300k. My bad. But still, it seems like UCSF is the way to go in your situation.

Another consideration, though: have you been to Michigan (or anywhere midwest/badlands/east coast) in the winter??? If you've never felt your bones ache, well, you will. And sometimes the cold hits you so hard you feel like you've lost your breath. I still love winter though.

It's wild but honestly I don't want to live anywhere else 🙂

Yeah, I grew up outside of Chicago. I like winter for a week when I visit, then I'm happy to leave it behind.

I do think UCSF is best for me and I'm glad you kind strangers are affirming that it's a fine choice to make given the scenario.

 

[DSM_302.0]

Anyone else have any thoughts? :-D

 

[814965]

Anyone else have any thoughts? :-D

You pretty much answered your own question. SF is the right place for you.

 

[IgEdoc]

Anyone else have any thoughts? :-D

Well, I am biased but both living in the City and the school’s reputation just can’t be beat at any price. In the years to come you will be so proud you went to UCSF, trust me.

 

[ITSTEDDYB]

It sucks I won't get to see you in Michigan. But tbh, if I had gotten into UCSF, no amount of money would make me stay away. Have fun!

Sent from my SM-N950U using SDN mobile

 

[DSM_302.0]

It sucks I won't get to see you in Michigan. But tbh, if I had gotten into UCSF, no amount of money would make me stay away. Have fun!

Sent from my SM-N950U using SDN mobile

It was tough to turn down such a great program. I *love* Michigan. Dean Raj's Ted Talk moved me, and I loved all the students and everyone I met on interview day.

And, all that said, I am so so stoked to be sticking around the Bay and heading to this program. I'm sad about the loans, but oh well. I can't pass up this opportunity. Thanks for your kind note 🙂

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

Thanks for the response! I wonder if the nausea would be absent with 180k of loans but present with 350k of loans.

I’m a simple man with simple tastes. Don’t plan on having children. Maybe buy a house one day. Likely do EM.

I think I’m gonna go UCSF but can’t shake the feeling that I’m crazy.

you're not crazy if you choose UCSF. I was talking to a friend recently who is almost done with fellowship and had graduated from med school with over 300k he said. we were talking about financial stuff and he said that he passed up on a cheaper school to go to his top choice. said he has no regrets and that his happiness was worth it. also said he will still be able to pay it off relatively quickly after fellowship.