UCSF or UOP???

[Senorita Chris]

Hi guys...

I have been accepted to UCSF and UOP for the DDS program and I wanted to ask the students who already have finished their DDS/DMD degree to see which school you'd choose now that you've been through it all.

Fact about me:
1. I want to specialize in endo
2. if i go to UCSF, i will be getting some grant money
3. i am 24 yrs old, but i'm thinking ahead and I dont want to have babies too late.

What i've been hearing:
1. students are happier and have a better lifestyle at UOP
2. UCSF is more competitive than UOP even though it's P/nP
3. UCSF is the way to go if you want to specialize
4. UOP is easier to rank high because most people just want to do general dentistry.

Please help! Its really hard to choose between two great schools!

---

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[koobpheej]

If at this point you know you want to do endo. Go to Pacific. It has arguably the best pre-doctoral endo training in the country (this might start a fight). For the last 3 years, everybody that applied to endo got in. Basically if the head of the endo department likes you, and you meet his qualifications, you will likely get in anywhere. Worst case scenario, you don't get in and do a GPR for a year, you will then be highly competitive and won't lose any time than if you had gone to UCSF. You won't get the same endo experience at UCSF because they have a grad program. You might get to watch the residents, but you won't do much. At Pacific, the dental students do all the procedures. It is rare that something is deemed too complex and sent to the grad program at UC or someplace else. Ultimately, if you are sure endo is the way, go to Pacific.

 

[armorshell]

Endo = Pacific hands down. If you work hard and are intelligent you should be in the top 10% without too much trouble, and if you have good handskills you can probably crack the top 5. Nobody has trouble specializing from either school.

What's the cost difference for attending though? If it's significantly less at UCSF, it might be a good idea to head that way despite all of the above.

 

[gbdental]

As a recent grad of UCSF I can say that our endo education is top notch. We are taught the latest in evidence based endodontics, and get to do a decent amount of endo. That includes molar endo, which some dental schools don't get to do. We might do less endo than UOP, but if you're interested in specializing, they have a special elective class 4th year that gives you tons of root canals. Yes, UCSF is more competitive, but if you do well you can get into almost any endo program. Every applicant from my class got into the endo program of their choice (as far as I know). There's the UCSF perspective...I had to represent!

Good luck.

 

[crazy_sherm]

3. UCSF is the way to go if you want to specialize

This seems to be the general consensus and when I ask UCSF students about how many in their classes end up specializing (non-AEGD/GPR), they tell me ~50%. I don't know what kind of math they learn over there, but 13 out of 101 doesn't sound like 50% to me...

http://dentistry.ucsf.edu/about/Mag2007.pdf

In my class of 139, we're 3/5 for ortho, 4/4 for endo, 5/7 for OMFS, 3/3 for pedo, and 3/3 for perio. While we never try to claim to be a specializing powerhouse, pretty much everyone at our school who is serious about specializing makes it.

BTW, the endo guys are going to Florida, Washington U (St Louis), BU, and UPenn. UPenn seems to liketo take a UOP grad every year.

 

[Senorita Chris]

Thanks for your feed back, it is extremely helpful. =)

 

[Senorita Chris]

If I did not have to worry about finances, I would choose UOP because I'm really enamored by their humanistic approach to learning (I went to a UC school and I really don't like the UC system). It also sounds like a good school to prep for endo. However, I just talked to the financial aid office at UCSF and I will be getting scholarship, which means that I would only pay about 40,000 out of 57,000 dollars first year and for subsequent years as well. I heard some people say that money shouldn't be the main factor in choosing schools, but in my case i think going to UCSF may be wiser???

Thanks guys for all the feedback, they're valuable to me because I don't know very many knowledgeable people in the field.

 

[NileBDS]

If I did not have to worry about finances, I would choose UOP because I'm really enamored by their humanistic approach to learning (I went to a UC school and I really don't like the UC system). It also sounds like a good school to prep for endo. However, I just talked to the financial aid office at UCSF and I will be getting scholarship, which means that I would only pay about 40,000 out of 57,000 dollars first year and for subsequent years as well. I heard some people say that money shouldn't be the main factor in choosing schools, but in my case i think going to UCSF may be wiser???

Thanks guys for all the feedback, they're valuable to me because I don't know very many knowledgeable people in the field.

I agree. If money remains your primary concern, I would go UCSF.
You will get into your endo program from either school, eventually. They're both excellent schools. Although I still would have seconded Pacific, based on the recommendation of a new senior endo faculty, who recently transfered over from UCSF.

Congrats on both your acceptances.

 

[NileBDS]

This seems to be the general consensus and when I ask UCSF students about how many in their classes end up specializing (non-AEGD/GPR), they tell me ~50%. I don't know what kind of math they learn over there, but 13 out of 101 doesn't sound like 50% to me...

http://dentistry.ucsf.edu/about/Mag2007.pdf

In my class of 139, we're 3/5 for ortho, 4/4 for endo, 5/7 for OMFS, 3/3 for pedo, and 3/3 for perio. While we never try to claim to be a specializing powerhouse, pretty much everyone at our school who is serious about specializing makes it.

BTW, the endo guys are going to Florida, Washington U (St Louis), BU, and UPenn. UPenn seems to liketo take a UOP grad every year.

In all fairness though, only "77 of 101 graduating DDS students, including international graduates" completed this exit survey. Maybe the missing 24 all went into specialties ?

 

[NileBDS]

Since we're on this page, with the knowledge that endo is one of the toughest specialties to get into straight out of school, I thought I would share with the OP Pacific's 5 year endo placement track record:

(S) = Pacific Senior
(A) = Pacific Alumni

'08 (ongoing)
(S) University of Florida
(S) Boston University
(S) University of Pennsylvania
(S) St. Louis University


'07
(S) U.S. Army
(S) University of Florida
(S) Baylor College of Dentistry
(S) Harvard University

(A) Albert Einstein Medical Center, Phildephia
(A) USC


'06
(S) Tufts University
(S) University of Pennsylvania
(S) Harvard University

(A) USC
(A) Boston University
(A) Case Western Reserve


'05
(S) Temple University
(S) Boston University
(S) Temple University
(S) Temple University

(A) University of Pennsylvania
(A) U.S. Navy
(A) Oregon Health & Science University


'04
(S) University of Pennsylvania
(S) Harvard University
(S) Harvard University

(A) Boston University
(A) University of Chicago, Illinois


'03
(S) University of Chicago, Illinois

(A) Temple University
(A) Ohio State University
(A) University of Chicago, Illinois
(A) University of Pennsylvania

 

[Senorita Chris]

wow, that's encouraging... except i would be in debt 160K after UCSF, and 270 K in debt after graduating from UOP. Sigh~, it's always the "cha-ching" that's the problem.
But I'm thinking that ucsf is still an excellent choice.

 

[cheesetoast]

Since we're on this page, with the knowledge that endo is one of the toughest specialties to get into straight out of school, I thought I would share with the OP Pacific's 5 year endo placement track record:

'08 (ongoing)
University of Florida
Boston University
University of Pennsylvania
Washington University, St. Louis

'07
U.S. Army
University of Florida
Baylor College of Dentistry
Harvard University
Albert Einstein Medical Center, Phildephia
USC

'06
Tufts University
University of Pennsylvania
Harvard University
USC
Boston University
Case Western Reserve

'05
Temple University
Boston University
Temple University
Temple University
University of Pennsylvania
U.S. Navy
Oregon Health & Science University

'04
University of Pennsylvania
Harvard University
Harvard University
Boston University
University of Chicago, Illinois

'03
University of Chicago, Illinois
Temple University
Ohio State University
University of Chicago, Illinois
University of Pennsylvania

When you say Washington University, St. Louis - do you mean SLU or University of Washington (WA st.)? I don't believe Wash U has a residency program (according to the AAE). Let me know if I'm wrong

 

[armorshell]

wow, that's encouraging... except i would be in debt 160K after UCSF, and 270 K in debt after graduating from UOP. Sigh~, it's always the "cha-ching" that's the problem.
But I'm thinking that ucsf is still an excellent choice.

110k is ton of money. I'm sure if you work hard at UCSF you'll do just fine trying to get into your specialty of choice, even if Pacific might give you some slight edge.

 

[dinero]

Hi guys...

I have been accepted to UCSF and UOP for the DDS program and I wanted to ask the students who already have finished their DDS/DMD degree to see which school you'd choose now that you've been through it all.

Fact about me:
1. I want to specialize in endo
2. if i go to UCSF, i will be getting some grant money
3. i am 24 yrs old, but i'm thinking ahead and I dont want to have babies too late.

What i've been hearing:
1. students are happier and have a better lifestyle at UOP
2. UCSF is more competitive than UOP even though it's P/nP
3. UCSF is the way to go if you want to specialize
4. UOP is easier to rank high because most people just want to do general dentistry.

Please help! Its really hard to choose between two great schools!

congrates on your acceptances....I am a current UCSF student...My advice go to uop its only three years and you will be much happier, stress free for three years...thats priceless...ucsf used to be cheap...not anymore...remember if you go to uop you will get more grants and fin. aid assistance... the endo program is really not that great...used to be when we had a director... Also the adminsteration does not give a **** about students and you no extra time to study to for part 1...go to a school that are willing to help and listen to their student body..remember you have to take part 2 and wreb... i hear uop help their students with patients and assistance for wreb..thats alone worth over 15000 dollars... good luck..

 

[NileBDS]

When you say Washington University, St. Louis - do you mean SLU or University of Washington (WA st.)? I don't believe Wash U has a residency program (according to the AAE). Let me know if I'm wrong

No, I think you are absolutely right. It looks like it is in fact Saint Louis University. I don't mind checking on this, if it matters to you at all.

 

[UNR.Grad]

When you say Washington University, St. Louis - do you mean SLU or University of Washington (WA st.)? I don't believe Wash U has a residency program (according to the AAE). Let me know if I'm wrong

Is there anyway to access this info for all residencies UOP students were accepted into / vs applied?

 

[Senorita Chris]

congrates on your acceptances....I am a current UCSF student...My advice go to uop its only three years and you will be much happier, stress free for three years...thats priceless...ucsf used to be cheap...not anymore...remember if you go to uop you will get more grants and fin. aid assistance... the endo program is really not that great...used to be when we had a director... Also the adminsteration does not give a **** about students k..

Yeah, I agree that happiness is priceless... another ucsf 3rd year told me that UOP would be more stressful bc of the grading system but i hear from UOP students that it wouldn't be super difficult to be top 10.

The only thing is, I'm not getting a dime of free money from UOP, so I will be getting 100% loan. I guess my decision really comes down to money issues. I know I get to make up for it in the extra year i could work, but at the same time, it's hard to gulp that extra 100K...

 

[crazy_sherm]

Is there anyway to access this info for all residencies UOP students were accepted into / vs applied?

Well, since most of the residency programs are done through MATCH, you only get accepted to one program anyway. Most endo programs don't use MATCH though, but from talking to my classmates who are doing endo next year, they pretty much took the first program that accepted them since the programs try to fill the slots as fast as they can. They would interview and get a call that afternoon to make a decision by the next day whether they wanted to go there.

 

[UNR.Grad]

Well, since most of the residency programs are done through MATCH, you only get accepted to one program anyway. Most endo programs don't use MATCH though, but from talking to my classmates who are doing endo next year, they pretty much took the first program that accepted them since the programs try to fill the slots as fast as they can. They would interview and get a call that afternoon to make a decision by the next day whether they wanted to go there.

Thanks for the info. I'm not even accepted to UOP yet, I have an interview there next week. *IF* I do get accepted I will be in a similar position as the OP but I have been accepted to UCLA already. Although, I would never go to UOP w/o the military, it's just too expensive. UCLA 4 years w/ living ~225k, vs. ~325 w/ living for 3 years @ UOP.

 

[NileBDS]

Hey guys. I was reading some of the new posts on this thread, and it caught my attention that I may have implied in my previous post, that the stats for Pacific's endo placement only included Pacific senior dental students. I feel obligated to elaborate on the fact that these stats also included Pacific Alumni, who may have not decided to do endo until later, or did a GPR or otherwise prior to applying. I will edit, my previous post to include that distinction with (S) for senior Pacific dental student and (A) for alumni who have decided to go for endo later on.

Although I do not think this relates much to our discussion, again, I felt obligated to make this distinction for purposes of clarification and for future readers reference.

 

[NileBDS]

Is there anyway to access this info for all residencies UOP students were accepted into / vs applied?

Do you mean how many programs each student applied to, or how many senior students applied versus how many actually got in somewhere ?

 

[Vick K9 dentist]

Senior? I didn't think senior pacific dental students existed...

 

[armorshell]

Senior? I didn't think senior pacific dental students existed...

3rd years are in all respects equivalent to a 4th year dental student, and are the most senior students at the school. What else would you call them?

 

[Yahtzee]

3rd years are in all respects equivalent to a 4th year dental student, and are the most senior students at the school. What else would you call them?

Well, you always just call us, "sir."

 

[brycethefatty]

Armorshell, with 3,883 posts on SDN and counting, what are you going for -- the record, or something? Geez, maybe if you would study a little more you would spend less time with in remedial operative with me teaching you what a proper MOD filling looks like.

 

[UNR.Grad]

Do you mean how many programs each student applied to, or how many senior students applied versus how many actually got in somewhere ?

How many senior students applied versus how many actually got in somewhere ?

Thanks for the help.

 

[armorshell]

Armorshell, with 3,883 posts on SDN and counting, what are you going for -- the record, or something? Geez, maybe if you would study a little more you would spend less time with in remedial operative with me teaching you what a proper MOD filling looks like.

Come look at the solid wall of ideals I got on that prep and then look at the "I have it out for armorshell and I think I'll fail him on the most ridiculously impossible criteria ever" OX.

 

[NileBDS]

How many senior students applied versus how many actually got in somewhere ?

Thanks for the help.

I think Sherm's post below is as close a count as you'll get. You might want to ask about that during your interview. I am not sure that they would have much better of an answer for you though, since these numbers here are coming right from the students.
I would maybe just add that we're in fact 4/6 ortho and 4/4 pedo.

...

In my class of 139, we're 3/5 for ortho, 4/4 for endo, 5/7 for OMFS, 3/3 for pedo, and 3/3 for perio. While we never try to claim to be a specializing powerhouse, pretty much everyone at our school who is serious about specializing makes it.

BTW, the endo guys are going to Florida, Washington U (St Louis), BU, and UPenn. UPenn seems to liketo take a UOP grad every year.

 

[Vick K9 dentist]

3rd years are in all respects equivalent to a 4th year dental student, and are the most senior students at the school. What else would you call them?

I don't know, I always assumed UOP was advanced dental hygiene

 

[brycethefatty]

I don't know, I always assumed UOP was advanced dental hygiene

No, we fly all of our perio patients to Crieghton because that's pretty much all they do at Crieghton besides learn how to pick corn and ride their mares around town. 😉

 

[Vick K9 dentist]

No, we fly all of our perio patients to Crieghton because that's pretty much all they do at Crieghton besides learn how to pick corn and ride their mares around town. 😉

You failed to mention the part about "violating" the mares prior to riding them around town...👍

 

[in her drawer]

About the cost thing, it should be noted that UCSF's tuition is going to rise by 7% each year for the next three years. Cost is one of the reasons I picked this place, and I'm glad I'm here...I just don't know if this knowledge would have affected my decision last year.

As far as competition is concerned, I think it all depends on the personality of the class. For instance, I feel like the D2 class is way more chill than my class.

 

[Pedo Unicorn]

wow, that's encouraging... except i would be in debt 160K after UCSF, and 270 K in debt after graduating from UOP. Sigh~, it's always the "cha-ching" that's the problem.
But I'm thinking that ucsf is still an excellent choice.

The money thing shouldn't play a factor here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get out of dental school one year earlier at UOP? That's one more year of work, as opposed to school. In other words, if you go to UOP, then that 4th year you would be in a residency program (or out working) instead of being a 4th year at UCSF. With that extra year to work after school, it would more than pay for the extra tuition (given that you could make more than 110K that first year as an endo). Just me, but I would much rather be in school for 3 years instead of 4. That's one extra year of your life to do what you want, and financially, it would pay for itself since you could work 1 more year than if you went to UCSF. Hope that makes sense. Just my opinion.

 

[SororityOMFS]

The money thing shouldn't play a factor here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get out of dental school one year earlier at UOP? That's one more year of work, as opposed to school. In other words, if you go to UOP, then that 4th year you would be in a residency program (or out working) instead of being a 4th year at UCSF. With that extra year to work after school, it would more than pay for the extra tuition (given that you could make more than 110K that first year as an endo). Just me, but I would much rather be in school for 3 years instead of 4. That's one extra year of your life to do what you want, and financially, it would pay for itself since you could work 1 more year than if you went to UCSF. Hope that makes sense. Just my opinion.

The extra year of money a Pacific grad earns can't be thought of as a loss for a UCSF grad. It seems like it makes sense, but it just plain doesn't. You don't live like a student when you graduate....so there is some of your money gone. And whos to say that that extra year at the beginning isn't just the start of your XX years of service in the profession. So you retire a year younger also. The year less of school is 1 year less of interest building though. Plus, it's still a huge chunk of money more.

HOWEVER, you can use the arguement that you get to start living your life 1 year earlier! And pacific grads know their stuff so in theory...more dollars on the bottom line.

 

[armorshell]

The extra year of money a Pacific grad earns can't be thought of as a loss for a UCSF grad. It seems like it makes sense, but it just plain doesn't. You don't live like a student when you graduate....so there is some of your money gone. And whos to say that that extra year at the beginning isn't just the start of your XX years of service in the profession. So you retire a year younger also. The year less of school is 1 year less of interest building though. Plus, it's still a huge chunk of money more.

If you consider that you'll work until the same point where you'll retire, the additional income you gain from attending Pacific is 1 year's worth of your average LIFETIME salary, not your first year out. For an endodontist, even after living and taxes and all that it's a pretty good chunk of money.

 

[tinker bell]

To the OP: "will it affect your decision if I tell you that an endo professor at UOP sends both his kids to UCSF?" He used to teach at ucsf, then moved to uop, but sends both kids to ucsf. What does that tell you? Choose a school that you like, not base on some random facts that previous years people get in where & what. That is like buying stocks. You are a scientist, not wall street trader. Sure you will be happy at UOP, but paying extra 100K for people to be nicer to you is pretty dramatic if you ask me. Personally, I don't mind if people are nice to me. But if I have to pay extra so I can get into this "nice society". Forget it, I'm happier when I'm 100K richer (even more if you know the formula of compound interest). Plus the one year extra, at UCSF, you get to go out on externship, learn cool stuff, practice real dentistry, get more stuff for your money.

 

[GoneEndo]

I stumbled across this post while showing the website to a dental student (non-UOP, non-UCSF) and am compelled to respond.

To the OP: "will it affect your decision if I tell you that an endo professor at UOP sends both his kids to UCSF?" He used to teach at ucsf, then moved to uop, but sends both kids to ucsf. What does that tell you?

It tells me nothing. I personally know a UOP faculty member whose son went to UCSF because he was not accepted into UOP. What does that tell you? What your whole post "tells" me is that you are a little bitter and a little...misinformed is a nice way to put it.

Choose a school that you like, not base on some random facts that previous years people get in where & what.

More bad advice. Obviously choose a school that you like, but the experience of graduates may help you decide which program you will like. These facts are not random. They are trends...meaningful trends.

That is like buying stocks. You are a scientist, not wall street trader. Sure you will be happy at UOP, but paying extra 100K for people to be nicer to you is pretty dramatic if you ask me. Personally, I don't mind if people are nice to me. But if I have to pay extra so I can get into this "nice society". Forget it, I'm happier when I'm 100K richer (even more if you know the formula of compound interest).

Please refrain from discussing economics if you don't understand it. As was correctly stated in a previous post, the extra year you gain from a three year program is the average of all years in practice. If you are a dentist in California and your average is not significantly greater than $100k+interest, you are doing something wrong. In addition, Pacific graduates have a history of lower default rates on student loans than UCSF grads (in other words, UOP grads are better at paying off their student loans than UCSF grads). These numbers are made available to both institutions.

Plus the one year extra, at UCSF, you get to go out on externship, learn cool stuff, practice real dentistry, get more stuff for your money.

"Practice real dentistry...get more stuff for your money"??? Do you think that you get to "practice (more) real dentistry" as a student or an actual practicing dentist? This statement lacks thought. The extra year at a four year institution is best correlated to the second year (not a highly clinical year) not the fourth year. While conducting an informational interview with the director of a post-grad program he described the difference between UCSF and UOP graduates as "If I want to talk science, I will talk to the UCSF grad. If I need dental work, I will see the Pacific grad." UCSF is an EXCELLENT research institution (medical and dental). UOP is regarded as an EXCELLENT clinical institution. I feel that UCSF gets very high quality students, but fails to provide them with an equally high quality clinical education. If you are interested in research, UCSF is probably a better option (although Pacific students have received high national honors for research in recent years). I personally had little interest in research. That is one of the reasons I selected UOP over UCSF and UCLA. By national standards, all three programs are good (as is Loma Linda, but the religious guidelines were a bit too stringent for me).

Now to address the OP directly. First off, congrats on having the option to choose between quality programs. It's a nice problem to have. Since you are interested in endo, a few things to consider:
1. UCSFs most highly regarded endo faculty (Dr. Ove Peters) has left and is now at Pacific.
2. The inventor of the apex locator is a Pacific grad.
3. The inventor of the Profile GT system is a Pacific grad.
4. It is easier to get higher national board scores at a four year program than at Pacific. You simply have more time to study with the extra year. Pacific is very fast paced (but you can handle it).

Bottom Line: Both are good programs, but please disregard the previous post as nonsense. The poster does not represent her program well.

FYI - I am a Pacific grad (obviously) and I've been accepted into an endo residency.

Good Luck. I hope everything works out for you.

 

[tinker bell]

Since when Dr. Ove Peters was the highest regard endo faculty at UCSF? Dr. Peters was an endo resident at UCSF. He was a foreign dentist, got into endo residency so he didn't have to get his license through the IDP route. He was teaching, yes, but as a resident (not as faculty). He had no license while he was teaching because he couldn't sign any prescription while he was teaching me in the clinic. Worse, why did the highest regard endo faculty at UCSF take the WREB in 2007? Both him & his wife (who are both at UOP now), took the WREB in June 2007, because he finished his endo residency in 2007. Only UOP was gracious enough to make an offer to a guy with no license professorship as no other school will, that is why both of them are at UOP.
UCSF has many excellent endo faculties that I learned most from. I don't remember understand much from Dr. Peters lecture. His accent put me straight to sleep.

So, Dr. Peters came over to UOP and told every one he was the highest regard faculty at UCSF? How could a public institution hire a guy with no license for years? What did he do at ucsf without a license? Teaching endo one morning a week on the clinic floor? That qualifies for being the highest regard endo faculty? No personal offense to him. But I remember he used to teach only 1 morning a week. That wouldn't qualify for any one to be the hot shot.

 

[NileBDS]

I just had to step in and try do some justice for this, absent, outstanding academician and clinician at Pacific, who we call Dr. Ove Peters.


"Dr. Ove Peters, DMD, MS, PhD, is a world-renowned endodontist who has published more than 50 peer-reviewed papers in international journals as well as several book chapters, including 'Pathways of the Pulp'. Dr. Peters currently serves on the editorial board and review panels of the International Endodontic Journal, the Journal of Endodontics and Endodontic Topics.

Before coming to San Francisco, Dr. Peters was an assistant professor and head of the faculty practice in restorative dentistry at the University of Zurich, Switzerland from 1998 to 2001, where he also pursued endodontic training. During this time, he established an endodontic research program, with a focus on root canal instrumentation and disinfection. These efforts led to more than 25 peer-reviewed publications and ultimately the title of "Privatdozent" (PhD, awarded 2002).

Dr. Peters received his undergraduate training in dentistry at the University of Kiel, Germany in 1990. "


Such astounding faculty members must be recognized for their hard work, and relentless drive for knowledge. We welcome Dr. Ove and Christine Peters to Pacific. They are recognized for their efforts and well appreciated for their hard work.

Dr. Ove Peters

 

[NileBDS]

On a lighter note, please help keep the information on this thread relevant to the OP's original question.

 

[Yahtzee]

.

 

[armorshell]

Good thing you latched onto the only defensible part of your original post, the rest of which GoneEndo proved to be BS. Drs. Peters were both recruited by The Gluskin when they were still teaching in Switzerland, and from what I understand the whole UCSF residency was just to get the correct licensure to be able to teach at UoP. Note that they're also heading up the fancy new endo research lab here.

 

[tinker bell]

My point is: He was a resident at UCSF, not a "most highly regard endo faculty at UCSF" like GoneEndo posted. His teaching career at ucsf was just as plenty as any other residents.

There are many excellent senior endo instructors at UCSF, including those who taught Dr. Peters during his years as resident still at the school. If you go to UCSF, you still will be taught by those guys. The P/F system will help you get into post-grad very easily. In 2007 UCSF got very good acceptant rate to PG endo (4/4).

 

[TomTomDDS]

To OP:

You'll end up paying more than 110K. Here's the math,

15 Years @ 5% ( which is below the market rate. If I calculate it based on the current interest rate of 6.8%, the difference will be even higher)

UCSF = Loan amount $232,688
-Term = 15 years
-Total Payment = $ 429741.8
-Monthly payment = $1840.08

UoP = Loan amount $ 323,142
- Term = 15 years
- Total Payment = $ 596796.44
- Monthly Payment = $2555.39

Total payment of UoP – Total Payment of UCSF = $ 167054.64

How much you gonna be in debt is very important because
when you want to get a loan to open your own practice, the lender will consider your debt-to-income ratio. So, if your debt-to-income ratio is low, your loan gets approved easily at a lower interest rate.





To NileBDS:
It seems like Dr. Peter's entire resume is based on Switzerland. What has he accomplished in here? If dental schools get so impressed by a foreign resume that they call it "world-renowned" … then why on the earth they force all the other foreign dentists to go through two years of dental schools in here. It seems like UoP is trying to sell him on their students.

 

[Mach band]

I just had to step in and try do some justice for this, absent, outstanding academician and clinician at Pacific, who we call Dr. Ove Peters.


Such astounding faculty members must be recognized for their hard work, and relentless drive for knowledge. We welcome Dr. Ove and Christine Peters to Pacific. They are recognized for their efforts and well appreciated for their hard work.

Remember, you only see half of the picture. We saw the other half at UC. Let that alone, I wouldn't give someone high respect when he/she negatively talks about someone/place that brought (or helped get) him/her to where they are.

To the OP, both are great schools. Some may claim that UOP is regarded as a general dentistry school while UCSF is regarded as a research school. I can tell you that UCSF is not a research school. They keep that door open for you if you are interested. I believe we got the highest NIH funding for more than a decade. But that doesn't mean that you'll have to do research or the school does not prepare you to be a good general dentist. We have faculty that have been in general dentistry for 20, 30 years. In my opinion, we are prepared well to be a good dentist and healthcare provider. It is up to the students whether they want to be one. I like this school because they present or open many things to me and allow me time to explore more when I need to. If you go UOP, you will start your PG a year earlier. But in my opinion, being a specialist means you are expected to know more (beyond your own specialty). If you see it this way, 4-year program is probably a better choice for you. Congrats and good luck with the decision!

 

[armorshell]

If you go UOP, you will start your PG a year earlier. But in my opinion, being a specialist means you are expected to know more (beyond your own specialty). If you see it this way, 4-year program is probably a better choice for you. Congrats and good luck with the decision!

It's a ridiculous misconception that you'll learn more at a 4 year program. Pacific is not a cut rate minimum education, we just move at a faster pace. While you're chilling in ISO time or enjoying a long summer break, we're learning things you take an extra year out of you life to.

 

[armorshell]

To OP:

You'll end up paying more than 110K. Here's the math,

15 Years @ 5% ( which is below the market rate. If I calculate it based on the current interest rate of 6.8%, the difference will be even higher)

UCSF = Loan amount $232,688
-Term = 15 years
-Total Payment = $ 429741.8
-Monthly payment = $1840.08

UoP = Loan amount $ 323,142
- Term = 15 years
- Total Payment = $ 596796.44
- Monthly Payment = $2555.39

Total payment of UoP – Total Payment of UCSF = $ 167054.64

How much you gonna be in debt is very important because
when you want to get a loan to open your own practice, the lender will consider your debt-to-income ratio. So, if your debt-to-income ratio is low, your loan gets approved easily at a lower interest rate.

Since you copy/pasted this from another thread, I'll gladly copy/paste my original response 😀

Seems rather spurious to quote the difference in price in your original post as the difference in payments after 15 years of interest, but at least ou came clean with it here.

As for another useful calculation, consider the total costs for attendance at the time of graduation.

Using the same websites, I determined the total cost of attendance for UCSF to be $249,788, once one factors in the 6 months of living expenses they, equally spuriouly, didn't include in the budget. I also used the off-campus total you used for Pacific, even though a huge percentage of students will live in housing significantly less expensive.

The total accrued debt for an in-state UCSF student at graduation, after capitalization, will be $291,057. The total accrued debt for a Pacific student, after capitalization, will be $356,321 for a total difference in debt at graduation of $65,264.

For an out of state student at UCSF, add $51,844 to that total in out of state tuition, for a total difference in debt at graduation of $13,420.

For an out of state student on scholarship at UoP such as myself and many others at UoP, UCSF would be more expensive.

Additionally, IIRC educational debt isn't used in a debt-income ratio calculation. Also, you can factor in the 7% tuition increase the governor passed for the next three years which should shrink that gap even more.

To NileBDS:
It seems like Dr. Peter's entire resume is based on Switzerland. What has he accomplished in here? If dental schools get so impressed by a foreign resume that they call it "world-renowned" … then why on the earth they force all the other foreign dentists to go through two years of dental schools in here. It seems like UoP is trying to sell him on their students.

I'd be wary of taking the stance that all dental education outside of the US is inferior. Most foreign dentists seek out education in the US for the same reasons Drs. Peters did, so they can seek out employment in the US, not because we have a monopoly on dental education.

 

[TomTomDDS]

It's a ridiculous misconception that you'll learn more at a 4 year program. Pacific is not a cut rate minimum education, we just move at a faster pace. While you're chilling in ISO time or enjoying a long summer break, we're learning things you take an extra year out of you life to.

At UoP a student gets 2,500 hours of clinical experience.
At UCSF a student gets 3,600 hours of clinical experience.

 

[armorshell]

At UoP a student gets 2,500 hours of clinical experience.
At UCSF a student gets 3,600 hours of clinical experience.

How exactly did you calculate that might I ask? Also, a simple calculation shows that 3600 hour of clinical experience would mean that years 3 and 4 you were doing 2 3 hours clinic sessions every day, 300 days out of the year. So unless you guys are coming in nights and weekends, and have no didactics whatsoever years 3 and 4, this number seems to be a bit of an embellishment.

 

[NileBDS]

Total payment of UoP – Total Payment of UCSF = $ 167054.64

Assuming your calculations are accurate, you forgot to add one year potential income as an endodontist.

$350000.00 - $ 167054.64 = About $183,000 + Extra year experience + Extra year you will never get back + Better learning environment + ...

You will always look really bad, if you try and argue that you save money by going to UCSF. That's why you should come up with good reasons to go to UCSF, other than just being cheap.