UMass vs. Case Western

[Piertotum Locomotor]

I was originally set on matriculating at Case but on May 1, I actually received an acceptance from UMass (after being waitlisted there).

I have two weeks to decide whether or not to take the offer and I'm a little conflicted.

I haven't received any financial aid info from UMass yet but even at full cost-of-attendance, it will be cheaper than Case. Case budgeted 87k/year for COA (I won't be taking out that much, more likely 65-70k/year), whereas UMass budgeted around 65k/year and I will also be taking out less than that in reality. Tuition alone at Case is 57k, and 33k at UMass.

I felt happy and impressed during my interviews at both schools, and the current students at both schools spoke highly of their institutions.

Which medical school do you think will give me the best opportunities and chances at the best residencies? I'm not particularly interested in primary care or general practice - I think I'd like to specialize but I'm sure that could change.

I don't buy in to the idea that every medical school in the US will give you an equal chance at the same residencies, as echoed by many outside of pre-allo on SDN, which is why it's worth the extra money to go to a better school to me. I'm still posing this question because I'm genuinely not sure how much better Case is vs. UMass. I haven't tried to compare match lists because this forum makes it sound like it's like reading tea leaves.

I'm trying to not let location or proximity to friends/family sway my decision.

Thanks in advance for any guidance and advice you can give. 🙂

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[Piertotum Locomotor]

" I don't buy in to the idea that every medical school in the US will give you an equal chance at the same residencies, as echoed by many outside of pre-allo on SDN"

You seem to have a good grasp on what the prevailing schools of thought are here. What are you trying to do? Get confirmation to go with what you already want? It sounds like you'd be happier at Case. It's not the decision I'd make, but we all have different goals in life so if you feel that the ranking is worth 80k+ go ahead. For example, a friend of mine in medical school came from a public ivy to my medical school and she feels out of place/depressed/too nerdy and longs for a feeling of academic superiority. It's what makes her happy. One day it'll probably make her much happier to tell her friends that she was trained at Stanford vs. DMC. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't judge others for holding a different opinion. Comparing match lists is like reading tea leaves. You'd have to make the assumption that you know the desires of the class as a whole, which you don't.

Also, pre-allo which is probably home to some of the most competitive applicants, is also full of people who lean towards maximizing their academic prestige over all else. I know your family is all about the education over the cost, but there's a big difference between education and prestige.

I removed the sentence about family because I knew some people would have an issue with it.

I was impressed with both schools when I visited on my interview day and the students were all very happy. So it's not like I think I'd fit in better in one school over another.

I don't care about prestige for prestige's sake but I understand that going to a "better" school will give me somewhat of an advantage in matching. I wish I could find the post but I remember mimelim had a few posts that talked about how the idea that "all US MD schools are equal" is not true. Is it bad that I'm competitive? Depends on who you ask I guess but for me, I want to make sure I maximize my chances for the best residency I can get.

The reason I'm posting is to ask whether Case is really that much of a big deal compared to a state school (as in, Case is not ranked top 10 or anything so I'm wondering if it's mid-20's ranking even matters). If a resident or attending on SDN tells me, "Oh, we regularly interview and accept Case graduates to our program because they're so great...but I don't know a single UMass resident", then that tells me the higher price Case is asking for could be worth it.

 

[URMD]

If I am to chime in here a bit, to directly answer your question I would say there is a difference, but that difference is not worth 80K
In my mind, in terms of "is this school better for me for residency or no" I group medical schools into groups
Top 10
Top 20
Top 50
Rest

Its a incredibly rough comparison, but from what i've seen the only time school ranking really makes a difference for PDs is if they're comparing students from these different categories
Case and UMass are both in the top 50 category. Ya, case is closer to the top and Umass is closer to the bottom of that category, but same category still. and ya, case's match list is better, I'd say with my tea leaf skills.
But to me its not worth 80K. To another it may be worth 80k. Gotta make your own decision.

 

[Redpancreas]

If I am to chime in here a bit, to directly answer your question I would say there is a difference, but that difference is not worth 80K
In my mind, in terms of "is this school better for me for residency or no" I group medical schools into groups
Top 10
Top 20
Top 50
Rest

Its a incredibly rough comparison, but from what i've seen the only time school ranking really makes a difference for PDs is if they're comparing students from these different categories
Case and UMass are both in the top 50 category. Ya, case is closer to the top and Umass is closer to the bottom of that category, but same category still. and ya, case's match list is better, I'd say with my tea leaf skills.
But to me its not worth 80K. To another it may be worth 80k. Gotta make your own decision.

I think both our responses answered the question well. The only difference is you've put up a subjective scale which you say is backed up by your interpretation of what PDs think. If you've spoken with a couple, I'd love to hear what they had to say as the issue is of great interest to medical students and pre-meds alike. PM me or respond if you'd like.

 

[Piertotum Locomotor]

To clarify, I hope I didn't make it seem as if I had a problem with the family statement because I dont. Mimelim seems like a very intelligent guy (got a really high mcat and is a surgeon from what I remember) and there's nothing wrong with being competitive. If you seek to emulate him, why not Do a search and PM him on his opinion? I now see you're trying to get advice of those higher up on the totem pole as opposed to opinions from medical students. I responded because I was in a similar situation with Wayne vs. Cincinnati but the decision in your case is between wider rankings. I will caution you though that by asking for advice from attendings, all you'll get is anecdotal evidence (and that too being selected for by SDN standards). Even attendings disagree with each other and oftentimes, more than advising, they're seeking to promote. how would either of us being able to tell the difference.

I haven't thought to PM him because it might be out of the blue but it might be worth a shot.
You're right about that one, sigh. I work in a hospital/research institution currently so I'll try to talk to my PI and other MDs about my situation. Just to get some opinions and views outside of SDN.

If I am to chime in here a bit, to directly answer your question I would say there is a difference, but that difference is not worth 80K
In my mind, in terms of "is this school better for me for residency or no" I group medical schools into groups
Top 10
Top 20
Top 50
Rest

Its a incredibly rough comparison, but from what i've seen the only time school ranking really makes a difference for PDs is if they're comparing students from these different categories
Case and UMass are both in the top 50 category. Ya, case is closer to the top and Umass is closer to the bottom of that category, but same category still. and ya, case's match list is better, I'd say with my tea leaf skills.
But to me its not worth 80K. To another it may be worth 80k. Gotta make your own decision.

The actual difference between costs will be about 30k/year but I see what you mean. I still have around two weeks so I'll try to gather more opinions.

 

[Redpancreas]

I haven't thought to PM him because it might be out of the blue but it might be worth a shot.
You're right about that one, sigh. I work in a hospital/research institution currently so I'll try to talk to my PI and other MDs about my situation. Just to get some opinions and views outside of SDN.



The actual difference between costs will be about 30k/year but I see what you mean. I still have around two weeks so I'll try to gather more opinions.

There's nothing successful people like doing more than giving advice to people who look up to them. That's like the entire basis for why medical students post in pre-allo XD.

Edit: if my memory serves me well, that guy has also had a bunch of ask me anything threads so he's probably open to giving some advice.

 

[Piertotum Locomotor]

There's nothing successful people like doing more than giving advice to people who look up to them. That's like the entire basis for why medical students post in pre-allo XD.

Edit: if my memory serves me well, that guy has also had a bunch of ask me anything threads so he's probably open to giving some advice.

Thanks, I'll send him a brief message. And probably messages to other people as well. I thought I was done with this cycle but now new questions are coming up!

 

[alpinism]

If I am to chime in here a bit, to directly answer your question I would say there is a difference, but that difference is not worth 80K
In my mind, in terms of "is this school better for me for residency or no" I group medical schools into groups
Top 10
Top 20
Top 50
Rest

Its a incredibly rough comparison, but from what i've seen the only time school ranking really makes a difference for PDs is if they're comparing students from these different categories
Case and UMass are both in the top 50 category. Ya, case is closer to the top and Umass is closer to the bottom of that category, but same category still. and ya, case's match list is better, I'd say with my tea leaf skills.
But to me its not worth 80K. To another it may be worth 80k. Gotta make your own decision.

Eh that's like saying Baylor is in the same category as Utah or Indiana (both top 50 or whatever).

There aren't really any hard cutoffs in rankings and its not completely based on US news. Its more of a sliding scale if anything.

As far as the OP, its up to him as to whether the 80 or 120K is worth the admittedly "small" bump in prestige from Case. If he knew he was interested in mostly competitive specialties that require more research and connections it could be worth it in the end (especially with the Cleveland Clinic next door). At the same time if he vastly preferred Cleveland or the school itself (curriculum, students, culture) then it could also be worth it just for the happiness factor.

OP If you're truly interested in maximizing your residency chances above all else I'd look into 3 things:

1) time off for step 1 studying
2) P/F vs grades (including clinical years and their grading)
2) flexibility of M3/M4 years (required courses/elective opportunities/away rotations/research rotations/etc...)

 

[Piertotum Locomotor]

Eh that's like saying Baylor is in the same category as Utah or Indiana (both top 50 or whatever).

There aren't really any hard cutoffs in rankings and its not completely based on US news. Its more of a sliding scale if anything.

As far as the OP, its up to him as to whether the 80 or 120K is worth the admittedly "small" bump in prestige from Case. If he knew he was interested in mostly competitive specialties that require more research and connections it could be worth it in the end (especially with the Cleveland Clinic next door). At the same time if he vastly preferred Cleveland or the school itself (curriculum, students, culture) then it could also be worth it just for the happiness factor.

OP If you're truly interested in maximizing your residency chances above all else I'd look into 3 things:

1) time off for step 1 studying
2) P/F vs grades (including clinical years and their grading)
2) flexibility of M3/M4 years (required courses/elective opportunities/away rotations/research rotations/etc...)

This is why I wish I was some of those people who knew what specialty they wanted to do since day 1, ha. I probably won't have a good idea until rotations.

To be honest, I'm not particularly excited by either locations but I don't want that to be a huge factor in my decision. I know I'll be spending most of my time on campus anyway and the campuses of both schools were great.

I wish I had asked about step 1 studying during my interview days! After looking up both schools' academic calendars, it looks like Case gives students an 8 week block, which they title "Reading or Clinical Electives with 4-6 weeks Board Studying Time", so I'm guessing you can take a maximum of 8 weeks for studying. Pre-clinical years are P/F, clinical years are H/HP/P/F. Case also gives students 12 weeks for research for their required thesis.

UMass is a little trickier to pin down. I know they are P/F for pre-clinical. As for step 1 studying or flexibility during M3/M4, I will have to do more digging.

 

[Dormouse]

The locations of the two schools are so different that you must have some preference for one over the other. One is only slightly away from the center of a city whereas the other is has much less of an urban feel (but IMO quieter and safer). My sense was that the cost of living is higher in Worcester.

Case has a very unique curriculum that is heavily dependent on self study, so there you will have a lot of time out of class for research or to prepare for step 1. Case also more strongly emphasizes the research part of its curriculum.

On the clinical side, UMass is much more focused on primary care and community health. If you're interested in pediatrics or internal medicine, UMass is one of the best. If I remember correctly, some of its longitudinal preceptor program sites were smaller clinics that are only reachable by car. In contrast, Case Western relies on the four (very good) large hospitals very close in proximity in the Cleveland area, so altogether there will be differences in terms of the main patient population at the two schools.

 

[WingedOx]

Case isn't significantly better to offset the cost.

 

[Dormouse]

Just throwing out other ideas for you to consider, at UMass nearly every student will be in-state as it does not accept out-of-state residents, which will affect how often your classmates leave to go home for the holidays. Currently the building using by the UT at Case Western is fairly old and decrepit, and you will have already graduated by the time the new medical school building is completed. In contrast, at UMass all the facilities will be new, as it is a very new school in itself. Additionally there is a significant difference in the research focus of the faculties at the two schools, which you can look into if you're interested in research.

 

[WingedOx]

Just throwing out other ideas for you to consider, at UMass nearly every student will be in-state as it does not accept out-of-state residents, which will affect how often your classmates leave to go home for the holidays. Currently the building using by the UT at Case Western is fairly old and decrepit, and you will have already graduated by the time the new medical school building is completed. In contrast, at UMass all the facilities will be new, as it is a very new school in itself. Additionally there is a significant difference in the research focus of the faculties at the two schools, which you can look into if you're interested in research.

Good to hear Case is getting a building, because that place felt like a Dungeon when I interviewed there back in the day.

 

[Dormouse]

And honestly it still feels that way. The new building will be next to Cleveland Clinic, and perhaps leads to some closer collaborations between the two institutions.
http://cwru-newmed.com/info/2013/08...-medical-education-building-on-clinic-campus/

 

[Piertotum Locomotor]

The locations of the two schools are so different that you must have some preference for one over the other. One is only slightly away from the center of a city whereas the other is has much less of an urban feel (but IMO quieter and safer). My sense was that the cost of living is higher in Worcester.

Case has a very unique curriculum that is heavily dependent on self study, so there you will have a lot of time out of class for research or to prepare for step 1. Case also more strongly emphasizes the research part of its curriculum.

On the clinical side, UMass is much more focused on primary care and community health. If you're interested in pediatrics or internal medicine, UMass is one of the best. If I remember correctly, some of its longitudinal preceptor program sites were smaller clinics that are only reachable by car. In contrast, Case Western relies on the four (very good) large hospitals very close in proximity in the Cleveland area, so altogether there will be differences in terms of the main patient population at the two schools.

Worcester is an hour outside Boston, which is where my family is so that's a plus. Worcester itself is rather unexciting and I felt the same way about Cleveland, which is why I was trying to not let location sway my decision haha.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Case (more research opportunities, more self-study time, academic hospital setting) but I know my mind's going to change in med school about what I want to do.

Just throwing out other ideas for you to consider, at UMass nearly every student will be in-state as it does not accept out-of-state residents, which will affect how often your classmates leave to go home for the holidays. Currently the building using by the UT at Case Western is fairly old and decrepit, and you will have already graduated by the time the new medical school building is completed. In contrast, at UMass all the facilities will be new, as it is a very new school in itself. Additionally there is a significant difference in the research focus of the faculties at the two schools, which you can look into if you're interested in research.

I was actually very impressed by UMass' campus when I visited, it was beautiful. I try not to focus on the appearance of the buildings very much though. I didn't think the buildings at Case looked terrible and I thought that basing an important decision like medical school on the age of certain facilities might be too shallow.

I'm sort of surprised right now that the poll is now 50-50!

 

[massmocha]

I am about to graduate from UMass in a couple weeks.

When I was deciding where to go I asked myself the same kind of questions, "prestige" vs. affordability. In the end you will be amazed by the quality of students at UMass. You receive an exceptional education, and hands on training. When I did my fourth year away rotations I was repeatedly told by attendings and residents how much more competent I was working with patients than the students at X or Y Ivy league med school. I can't say this is a universal statement, and maybe they were just trying to be nice, but I felt like we are highly trained in the practical aspects of treating patients and getting things done in the hospital.

I can think of a couple schools I would choose above UMass, but I would not put Case in that category. I am certain you would have a good experience at Case, and I have friends at Case who love it, but if your main priority is to improve your match chances by attending Case, this is not really worth the price you will pay.

UMass is very generous with financial aid, and offers lots of grants for students with moderate financial need.

On the final point about not caring about proximity to friends and family, I assume you are from Massachusetts, since you were accepted here. I would not underestimate the benefit of having friends and family nearby and not having to travel far for holidays, birthdays, etc. and still being able to maintain ties with friends from home or college.

Good luck, you will likely be happy at either school!

 

[mimelim]

My PM reply:

What I Both Case and UMass are approximately the same in terms of how academic they are and the opportunities they afford you. They will both give you ample opportunity to explore a wide range of specialties and will be able to support you going into just about anything.

You should go wherever makes the most sense financially and from a family perspective. Do not under estimate the power of having a good support structure during medical school. It is stressful, albeit to different levels for different people. I have co-residents from both institutions (in a very competitive field) and they both are exceptional residents. They also both have great things to say about their respective schools.

In summary, congratulations on both your acceptances. You can not pick wrong. Figure out which one will fit you the best (based on finances, where they are relative to significant other/family) and enjoy the ride .

--------------------------------------------------

Then I saw this thread... I would ignore match lists entirely for this decision. Who you are as an individual and how you function at your school will out weigh ANY institutional bump you would get by at least an order of magnitude. Personally, UMass is the no brainer option, unless there is another compelling reason to go (ex. significant other living there).