Unconventional Careers with a doctorate

[earnadegree123]

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering what other types of careers other people have pursued with the their PhD or PsyD? So not therapy or evaluation work, but like administration in hospitals or higher education or prisons. Stuff like that.

How did you get to that place? What does your day to day life look like? Thanks!

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[deleted343839]

I know several psychologists who got into medical education careers (their titles are dean/assistant dean). People with skills in evaluation/assessment of medical education seem to be especially in demand.

I also know a few clinically-trained people who went into industry doing either pharma trials or developing products for Pearson or other publishers.

 

[PsyDr]

I went back and forth on answering this. I have a very unusual career. My career developed because:

1) I have and make the best friends a guy can ask for. And I maintain those friendships. One of my finance contracts developed because I challenged a dude to a champagne chugging contest at a wedding while discussing the merits of FFTs.

2) I follow my own interests And recognize these are outcroppings of my abilities; thank you John Holland. If someone is looking for a diplomatic person, well... I’m not your guy. If someone wants a 20hr contract and is cool with that being completed in 2 days: I might be your dude.

3) I’m not so narcissistic as to think I can excel at modal things. I know where I stand. And I act on that knowledge. A nobel isn’t in the cards. The World Series of poker isn’t in the cards. But maybe I could place in whatever the competition baccarat, because that’s just a binomial and a Monte Carlo.

4) I spent a lot of time investigating
WHO has the money. Hint: it’s not people. There’s a lot of things I love. But so far no one is in the market for a guy who can nail all of the parts of AC/DC’s Thunderstruck, or an obnoxious dilettante who has opinions about the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty) . So I’m forced to sell my wares to people who can pay for them and can make money off then. There are a lot actionable things I offer that people want to pay for. There’s things I offer nothing money making to (e.g., marketing is extraordina data driven with gps collocation right now. They could give a crap about psych theories. Which was an embarrassing lesson for me). I act accordingly to make my money. One of the beautify things about making money is that once you’re covered you can donate your time to things that tug at your debatably present heartstrings.

5) I spend a stupid amount of time learning. I read extensively. I have zero idea about pop culture. See my memI listen to audiobooks at every chance. I subscribe to digests of all sorts of things. I surround myself with people much much much smarter than me. And I ask to everyone taught. I want to always be the poorest, dumbest, least educated, least successful, etc person in any room.

6) day to day, I spend 10-12hrs a day sitting in an office. Sometimes there are people there. Sometimes I am alone. Sometimes that’s at my home office. Sometimes that’s in an office in another continent. Sometimes I’m wearing expensive suits. Sometimes boxers.

7) I spend a lot of time reading about other people’s careers; verging on stalking. Apa has published on unusual careers, regularly.

8) if you’re wanting to do administrative stuff; don’t do clinical psych. Statistically an EdD is the most common degree for a healthcare CEO. Science!

9) I’ve been offered all sorts of stupid jobs: tenured track stuff, hospital admin jobs, etc. Its important to know who you are. I’m not an academic. I’d just show up and make fun of people. I’m not a traditional manager. My employees are lovely, but they are overpaid because of me.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I challenged a dude to a champagne chugging contest at a wedding while discussing the merits of FFTs.

I subscribe to digests of all sorts of things.

Sometimes I’m wearing expensive suits. Sometimes boxers.

I spend a lot of time reading about other people’s careers; verging on stalking.

I’d just show up and make fun of people.

And the legend of @PsyDr grows....

 

[earnadegree123]

I still am not quite sure what you do. But it seems like you have a whole mess of flexibility and work satisfaction. And that says a lot.

I already have the clinical psych degree so the EdD is out, but I am finding that I am not pulled toward typical clinical positions. So I'm trying to learn. Figure out what options there might be and how I could pursue my interests and make some money doing it.

Thanks for the response!

I went back and forth on answering this. I have a very unusual career. My career developed because:

1) I have and make the best friends a guy can ask for. And I maintain those friendships. One of my finance contracts developed because I challenged a dude to a champagne chugging contest at a wedding while discussing the merits of FFTs.

2) I follow my own interests And recognize these are outcroppings of my abilities; thank you John Holland. If someone is looking for a diplomatic person, well... I’m not your guy. If someone wants a 20hr contract and is cool with that being completed in 2 days: I might be your dude.

3) I’m not so narcissistic as to think I can excel at modal things. I know where I stand. And I act on that knowledge. A nobel isn’t in the cards. The World Series of poker isn’t in the cards. But maybe I could place in whatever the competition baccarat, because that’s just a binomial and a Monte Carlo.

4) I spent a lot of time investigating
WHO has the money. Hint: it’s not people. There’s a lot of things I love. But so far no one is in the market for a guy who can nail all of the parts of AC/DC’s Thunderstruck, or an obnoxious dilettante who has opinions about the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty) . So I’m forced to sell my wares to people who can pay for them and can make money off then. There are a lot actionable things I offer that people want to pay for. There’s things I offer nothing money making to (e.g., marketing is extraordina data driven with gps collocation right now. They could give a crap about psych theories. Which was an embarrassing lesson for me). I act accordingly to make my money. One of the beautify things about making money is that once you’re covered you can donate your time to things that tug at your debatably present heartstrings.

5) I spend a stupid amount of time learning. I read extensively. I have zero idea about pop culture. See my memI listen to audiobooks at every chance. I subscribe to digests of all sorts of things. I surround myself with people much much much smarter than me. And I ask to everyone taught. I want to always be the poorest, dumbest, least educated, least successful, etc person in any room.

6) day to day, I spend 10-12hrs a day sitting in an office. Sometimes there are people there. Sometimes I am alone. Sometimes that’s at my home office. Sometimes that’s in an office in another continent. Sometimes I’m wearing expensive suits. Sometimes boxers.

7) I spend a lot of time reading about other people’s careers; verging on stalking. Apa has published on unusual careers, regularly.

8) if you’re wanting to do administrative stuff; don’t do clinical psych. Statistically an EdD is the most common degree for a healthcare CEO. Science!

9) I’ve been offered all sorts of stupid jobs: tenured track stuff, hospital admin jobs, etc. Its important to know who you are. I’m not an academic. I’d just show up and make fun of people. I’m not a traditional manager. My employees are lovely, but they are overpaid because of me.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I went back and forth on answering this. I have a very unusual career. My career developed because:

1) I have and make the best friends a guy can ask for. And I maintain those friendships. One of my finance contracts developed because I challenged a dude to a champagne chugging contest at a wedding while discussing the merits of FFTs.

2) I follow my own interests And recognize these are outcroppings of my abilities; thank you John Holland. If someone is looking for a diplomatic person, well... I’m not your guy. If someone wants a 20hr contract and is cool with that being completed in 2 days: I might be your dude.

3) I’m not so narcissistic as to think I can excel at modal things. I know where I stand. And I act on that knowledge. A nobel isn’t in the cards. The World Series of poker isn’t in the cards. But maybe I could place in whatever the competition baccarat, because that’s just a binomial and a Monte Carlo.

4) I spent a lot of time investigating
WHO has the money. Hint: it’s not people. There’s a lot of things I love. But so far no one is in the market for a guy who can nail all of the parts of AC/DC’s Thunderstruck, or an obnoxious dilettante who has opinions about the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty) . So I’m forced to sell my wares to people who can pay for them and can make money off then. There are a lot actionable things I offer that people want to pay for. There’s things I offer nothing money making to (e.g., marketing is extraordina data driven with gps collocation right now. They could give a crap about psych theories. Which was an embarrassing lesson for me). I act accordingly to make my money. One of the beautify things about making money is that once you’re covered you can donate your time to things that tug at your debatably present heartstrings.

5) I spend a stupid amount of time learning. I read extensively. I have zero idea about pop culture. See my memI listen to audiobooks at every chance. I subscribe to digests of all sorts of things. I surround myself with people much much much smarter than me. And I ask to everyone taught. I want to always be the poorest, dumbest, least educated, least successful, etc person in any room.

6) day to day, I spend 10-12hrs a day sitting in an office. Sometimes there are people there. Sometimes I am alone. Sometimes that’s at my home office. Sometimes that’s in an office in another continent. Sometimes I’m wearing expensive suits. Sometimes boxers.

7) I spend a lot of time reading about other people’s careers; verging on stalking. Apa has published on unusual careers, regularly.

8) if you’re wanting to do administrative stuff; don’t do clinical psych. Statistically an EdD is the most common degree for a healthcare CEO. Science!

9) I’ve been offered all sorts of stupid jobs: tenured track stuff, hospital admin jobs, etc. Its important to know who you are. I’m not an academic. I’d just show up and make fun of people. I’m not a traditional manager. My employees are lovely, but they are overpaid because of me.

There’s some really amazing career advice in here, thank you for sharing!

 

[Sanman]

6) day to day, I spend 10-12hrs a day sitting in an office. Sometimes there are people there. Sometimes I am alone. Sometimes that’s at my home office. Sometimes that’s in an office in another continent. Sometimes I’m wearing expensive suits. Sometimes boxers.

Do the other people in the office find it uncomfortable when you are only wearing your boxers? Just wondering...

 

[ClinicalABA]

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering what other types of careers other people have pursued with the their PhD or PsyD? So not therapy or evaluation work, but like administration in hospitals or higher education or prisons. Stuff like that.

How did you get to that place? What does your day to day life look like? Thanks!

Before my current position, I’ve done very little traditional psychotherapy/psychologist work. I did not even get my license until 6-7 years after I was eligible, and didn’t didn’t bill under an assessment or therapy insurance code until another 6-7 years after getting my license. My jobs have included:

• Clinical director in special ed school and adult residential programs- responsible for clinical program and staff oversight, program development, contract procurement
• Director of community consultation at a hospital based pediatric clinic- responsibilities included marketing and contract procurement for psychological, behavioral, and allied health services (PT, OT, Speech) outside of the clinic (primarily in public and private schools)
• Program director of a private special ed school- main administrator responsible for admin supervision of all department heads (ABA, social work, education, rehab); develop and monitor program budget; complete licensure and credentialling applications (DOE, CARF), hiring/firing people
• Director of Operations of a home based ABA provider company- head administrator, develop policy and procedures, oversee all departments, interface with new parent agency after acquisition.

Now I “just” do assessments. Haven’t seen an individual therapy client since my pre-doctoral internship, and frankly couldn’t imagine doing so.

 

[earnadegree123]

That all sounds amazing! I'm finding myself unsure how to know where to start with finding work that is not clinical in nature. Many jobs of interest require experience, but I've been in school. I have a lot of academic service experience and some real life customer service skills, but no real life professional work experience. Any tips on where/how to start?

Before my current position, I’ve done very little traditional psychotherapy/psychologist work. I did not even get my license until 6-7 years after I was eligible, and didn’t didn’t bill under an assessment or therapy insurance code until another 6-7 years after getting my license. My jobs have included:

• Clinical director in special ed school and adult residential programs- responsible for clinical program and staff oversight, program development, contract procurement
• Director of community consultation at a hospital based pediatric clinic- responsibilities included marketing and contract procurement for psychological, behavioral, and allied health services (PT, OT, Speech) outside of the clinic (primarily in public and private schools)
• Program director of a private special ed school- main administrator responsible for admin supervision of all department heads (ABA, social work, education, rehab); develop and monitor program budget; complete licensure and credentialling applications (DOE, CARF), hiring/firing people
• Director of Operations of a home based ABA provider company- head administrator, develop policy and procedures, oversee all departments, interface with new parent agency after acquisition.

Now I “just” do assessments. Haven’t seen an individual therapy client since my pre-doctoral internship, and frankly couldn’t imagine doing so.

 

[ClinicalABA]

That all sounds amazing! I'm finding myself unsure how to know where to start with finding work that is not clinical in nature. Many jobs of interest require experience, but I've been in school. I have a lot of academic service experience and some real life customer service skills, but no real life professional work experience. Any tips on where/how to start?

You need to be getting experience and increasing your abilities by whatever means you can. As PsyDr hinted at above, it’s an active process that will require you to seek out opportunities and perform tasks beyond what might be a standard part of your training. I’d suggest the following:

• First off, be really good at the clinical stuff. The other stuff will be extra and likely outside your actual job responsibilities. Work hard and efficiently to meet the demands of your actual position, and you’ll have more time to do the other stuff. If you’re not good at what you’re supposed to be doing, you’re not a great candidate to be given more to do.
• Choose positions with agencies that are run by psychologists. If the President/CEO is a clinical psychologist, there’s likely to be more opportunities for (or at least acceptance of) psychologists in non-therapy roles.
• Ask to sit in on administrative, strategic planning, HR, policy, licensure/credentialing team, etc., meetings and activities. Observe an take notes. Come up with questions. Independently do your research and seek out answers to these questions on your own. It’s much more impressive, imho, to ask for feedback on your own answers than to ask for the answers themselves.
• Do further research on things such as program licensure requirements, state laws governing the licensure and operation of the type of agencies you work or would like to work in, state employment law, etc. Most states will publish program requirements as well as licensure surveyor guidelines and maybe even the applications. Download these and try to complete the application yourself (e.g., as a director of special education schools, I had to complete Dept of Education [DOE] licensure applications). Working through the app on your own will give you a good sense of what you need to know/what you don’t know.
• A little later on in your career- Teach. I was teaching clinical courses in a LMHC and an ABA graduate program. I offered to design and teach a course in Organization Behavior Management (OBM). This forced me to be not only be up on the literature regarding clinical program design and management, process design and analysis, and workplace behavior safety, but comfortable enough that I could teach it to others.
• Continue to refine your clinical skills in case, like me, you decide to “go back” to a purely clinical job and leave all that admin stuff behind you!

 

[Sanman]

You need to be getting experience and increasing your abilities by whatever means you can. As PsyDr hinted at above, it’s an active process that will require you to seek out opportunities and perform tasks beyond what might be a standard part of your training. I’d suggest the following:

• First off, be really good at the clinical stuff. The other stuff will be extra and likely outside your actual job responsibilities. Work hard and efficiently to meet the demands of your actual position, and you’ll have more time to do the other stuff. If you’re not good at what you’re supposed to be doing, you’re not a great candidate to be given more to do.
• Choose positions with agencies that are run by psychologists. If the President/CEO is a clinical psychologist, there’s likely to be more opportunities for (or at least acceptance of) psychologists in non-therapy roles.
• Ask to sit in on administrative, strategic planning, HR, policy, licensure/credentialing team, etc., meetings and activities. Observe an take notes. Come up with questions. Independently do your research and seek out answers to these questions on your own. It’s much more impressive, imho, to ask for feedback on your own answers than to ask for the answers themselves.
• Do further research on things such as program licensure requirements, state laws governing the licensure and operation of the type of agencies you work or would like to work in, state employment law, etc. Most states will publish program requirements as well as licensure surveyor guidelines and maybe even the applications. Download these and try to complete the application yourself (e.g., as a director of special education schools, I had to complete Dept of Education [DOE] licensure applications). Working through the app on your own will give you a good sense of what you need to know/what you don’t know.
• A little later on in your career- Teach. I was teaching clinical courses in a LMHC and an ABA graduate program. I offered to design and teach a course in Organization Behavior Management (OBM). This forced me to be not only be up on the literature regarding clinical program design and management, process design and analysis, and workplace behavior safety, but comfortable enough that I could teach it to others.
• Continue to refine your clinical skills in case, like me, you decide to “go back” to a purely clinical job and leave all that admin stuff behind you!

Agreed with most of this.

I think the biggest common thread is being open to opportunity, unhappy with the status quo, and willing push the boundaries a bit. IME, it is easier to find opportunities for someone to take a chance on you in smaller companies/agencies or those that may be strapped for resources. This is not always as easy as taking the cushier gig elsewhere that may be slow to let you move up due to established admin, especially in the PP world.

I also agree that being a solid clinician is important, it is not necessarily about being the best clinician. Being able to balance quality and productivity is important if you are going to step into admin roles. In many places, including at my old company, being a part of admin meant knowing where you made the money. Providing the highest quality services was not always a money maker. It can often be about being a rainmaker rather than the best clinician.

 

[ClinicalABA]

IME, it is easier to find opportunities for someone to take a chance on you in smaller companies/agencies or those that may be strapped for resources.

I can see where that might be the case. However, my early career experiences were with a very large human services agency that was involved in a lot of different areas of service delivery- outpatient psych, special ed schools (autism and brain injury), hospital-based clinic management, school consult, adult residential- and also has an APA approved pre-doc. Resources were good, but carefully managed and not, for the most part, wasted. It gave me an opportunity to get experience in a lot of different areas. School consult was my main skill set, and I could fall back on that when needed. I think one of the greatest skills I learned was how not to mess things up. I did a lot of “filling in” for periods of time when they were looking to fill bigger positions that I was not yet qualified to do long term or independently yet (e.g. school program director or clinical director positions). I NEVER said no to any such gig, regardless of the setting or the drive (and some were pretty long!). My main responsibility to the agency was to not screw things up. I’d usually maintain some school consultation contracts part-time. In exchange, I got invaluable experience that positioned me to take on on my own program full-time when I was ready. It really was an ideal situation.

I also agree that being a solid clinician is important, it is not necessarily about being the best clinician. Being able to balance quality and productivity is important if you are going to step into admin roles. In many places, including at my old company, being a part of admin meant knowing where you made the money. Providing the highest quality services was not always a money maker. It can often be about being a rainmaker rather than the best clinician.

This. It’s not about “make money at all costs,” but about bringing in enough revenue to cover operating costs as well as to meet any other mission/strategic planning related goals (making a profit; program development; non-reimbursable activities like research or dissemination). Once I got to see where the money was coming from and where it meant, a lot of things made more sense. I was better able to categorize earlier experiences I had with administrators (e.g., “difficult but financially prudent decision” vs. “financially overly conservative” vs. “cheap bastard”).