Undergrad- Psyd requirements?

[jmasterson]

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Hi,
I'm finishing up my Sophomore year as an undergrad in Psych. I am planning on going to grad school for my Psyd and have a couple questions. I have been trolling these forums for a long time now to gain more info on PsyD's in Clinical Psychology.
First:
1. I understand Clinical experience is required, but how much would make me a good candidate? I have an interview coming up for a summer internship with a Child and Family Services facility. No details yet on what I would be doing specifically.
I am transferring schools in the fall, hopefully to a more prestigious school. Some schools, like Tufts, which is a top choice, has a year long internship (actually two internships, one per semester) during the senior year. If I dont go there I do at least intend to do a semester or longer internship my senior year. But, would that be enough.
2. Research. I also understand that for PhD programs, research experience is indispensable. That being said, do many PsyD schools such as GWU, Rutgers, or University of Denver require research experience or look on a student more highly if he/she has it ?? Most undergrad programs I'm looking at require one to two semesters of a research course to get your Bachelors. Is taking a research course enough experience, or do they want to see you working for a lab or with a professor on your own time? My thoughts are that with clinical internships (that I'm going to try and be a part of my junior and senior year) where would I find the time to fit in research (which im not super interested in by the way)?

I've also read a lot about GRE scores - idk if its just me but I never even heard of them from advisors or professors or anything! I learned about them by surfing the web!

So far my GPA is 3.64 and which only continue to improve as I'm in my second semester of senior year.
I am not a part of clubs or anything but do hold summer jobs (working with children) and plan to from now on become involved in internship opportunities or volunteer opportunities in mental health.

I would love to hear answers to my questions and any opinions at all on my thoughts on future schooling, PsyD, internships, etc. Any advice or thoughts are helpful to me. Sometimes it's not easy finding every bit of info on the web, sometimes personal opinions can mean a lot more. Thanks.

 

[LucidMind]

Hello there!

I recently went through the whole Psyd and PhD application process. I got accepted into one PhD program and one PsyD program, so I may be able to offer you some insight.

I would highly recommend getting as much clinical and research experience as you can, study your ass off for the GRE ( you should aim for at least 70 percentiles, though 60 is OKAY if you have an amazing CV and GPA), and apply to partially or fully funded PhD programs. The GRE is a standardized test required by any graduate program worth going to. If you have the money take a GRE class or at least buy a prep book and study like your life depends on it.

I recommend PhD over PsyD because nobody is really sure how far the PsyD degree will go in the future. With our declining job market, you really can't go wrong with a PhD. You'll always have those research and academic positions available. Even if you are purely interested in doing clinical work (as opposed to research), get a PhD. There are many PhD programs which are very clinically oriented and will offer a wide variety clinical opportunities (like the school I am going to!). Moreover, as i'm sure you have read on these posts, PsyDs cost a ton of money. In my own opinion, it comes down to what a degree that everybody knows is legit and worthwhile (PhD) vs a degree that most people will be like "huhhh?" and we honestly don't know where its going to go in the next 10 years (PsyD)

I would really try to get an actual lab position or do research with a professor. HOWEVER, if you get some really amazing clinical internships (and i'm talking about more than scheduling appointments..actually interacting with clients on some level), i'm sure that just doing well in your research classes will be enough (especially if you are applying to PhD programs that are clinically focused). If you can find time to get in a research lab I would do that as well. Most colleges offer research labs as an elective course, so you can check with your psych department about that.


Also...Get the book "insiders guide to clinical psychology"...it will have all the information you need and more.

 

[EmotRegulation]

As someone who attended a PhD program and now is faculty at a more research-focused PhD program, take what I say with a grain of salt, but you shouldn't really need clinical experience before applying to doctoral programs, either PsyDs or PhDs. I can see how clinical experience would be personally useful for you in the decision-making process, as you would want to know whether you like it or not before pursuing an advanced degree, but clinical psych doctoral programs are training programs. It's OK to have minimal/no clinical experience coming in, because you're going to be taught from the ground up.

I agree with the previous poster who advised research experience; this will be ultimately more helpful to you and give you the possibility of also applying to balanced/clinical-focused (funded) PhD programs.

Remember that even as a practitioner, you should value the role of research in clinical psychology, as it is due to research we learn how disorders develop, what treatments work best, etc. Even if you don't want to pursue research as a career, getting involved with research now can give you an appreciation for what goes into the process.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As someone who attended a PhD program and now is faculty at a more research-focused PhD program, take what I say with a grain of salt, but you shouldn't really need clinical experience before applying to doctoral programs, either PsyDs or PhDs. I can see how clinical experience would be personally useful for you in the decision-making process, as you would want to know whether you like it or not before pursuing an advanced degree, but clinical psych doctoral programs are training programs. It's OK to have minimal/no clinical experience coming in, because you're going to be taught from the ground up.

I agree with the previous poster who advised research experience; this will be ultimately more helpful to you and give you the possibility of also applying to balanced/clinical-focused (funded) PhD programs.

Remember that even as a practitioner, you should value the role of research in clinical psychology, as it is due to research we learn how disorders develop, what treatments work best, etc. Even if you don't want to pursue research as a career, getting involved with research now can give you an appreciation for what goes into the process.

This is a very important point, and is one of the reasons why being involved in research prior to entering a doctoral program is so crucial. Research is a huge part of psychology; even if you don't conduct any after graduating, having participated in the creation of original research in grad school is essentially fundamental to truly being able to appreciate and critically evaluate/consume this material at a deep level of understanding. Beyond that, because so much of what we do is theoretically-drive and still largely in flux, it's very difficult to competently practice as a psychologist without a deep understand of research techniques.

As for the amount of experience itself: it's likely that only completing one or two required research-related courses (e.g., methods, experimental design, measurement) won't be adequate for most/all respectable programs. In all actuality, these programs may not consider having completed these classes as research experience at all. One of the most common routes to gaining actual research experience is to sign up as a research assistant in a professor's lab, which can usually be done for some degree of course credit (e.g., for 1 hour of credit, you'll do 3 hours of lab work per week).

 

[jmasterson]

Wow, thanks for all the quick responses! You have all made valid points so far and I will definitely take them into consideration. LucidMind - as far as getting a PhD, it's certainly a consideration for me, but the other aspect I didnt touch on yet was teaching. I'm not interested in teaching Psych either. That being said, how much time would someone in a PhD program be spending on teaching (and research, thus taking away time to focus on clinical aspects)? Is anyone able to give any strong examples of a PhD program(s) that is more clinically focused than research (preferably in the Northeast but can be anywhere)?
I do see the value of research - I will try to get some experience in my junior and senior year. I am not sure what kind of research I'd be interested in though - how do you find that out without actually doing it? I may be transferring to a small school which I imagine limits the diversity of research going on at the school. And, how do you find out if a professor needs a lab assistant - do you just get in contact with some and ask? I can't imagine they put a listing out for one. Thanks a lot, keep on with the opinions, I'm glad to hear them!

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Given your interests, what is making you interested in a PsyD rather than a master's? A PsyD sounds like a lot of time and expense that you probably don't need given your career goals.

Dr. E

 

[LucidMind]

Wow, thanks for all the quick responses! You have all made valid points so far and I will definitely take them into consideration. LucidMind - as far as getting a PhD, it's certainly a consideration for me, but the other aspect I didnt touch on yet was teaching. I'm not interested in teaching Psych either. That being said, how much time would someone in a PhD program be spending on teaching (and research, thus taking away time to focus on clinical aspects)? Is anyone able to give any strong examples of a PhD program(s) that is more clinically focused than research (preferably in the Northeast but can be anywhere)?

Not all programs require teaching at all. It's often an optional aspect of the program. The book "insiders guide to clinical psychology" has almost every single PhD and PsyD program in the US and Canada . It rates them all on a scale of 1 to 7. A "1" means it's 100% clinical (PsyD programs are usually 1-2) and a "7" means its 100% research (you will not be able to do therapy). You should aim for PhD programs that are in the middle, from 3 to 5. Examples from the book I have right here are:

University of Florida (4)
Fordham University (5)
Howard University (4)
Idaho State (4)
Brigham Young University (3)
Boston University (4)
Penn State (4)
Auburn (4)

etc etc etc


There are a ton of PhD programs which offer great clinical training. The book is filled with them. Check it out!

 

[jmasterson]

LucidMind - thanks, I will check it out!!
Dr. E - you are right, I have (and am) considering the battle between an MSW, PhD and PsyD. It is a consideration. I have found from reading others posts that a lot of people feel that a PsyD or PhD is worth the extra work and cost in that they generally make more money, have more opportunities, and more respect, at least that's what I got from it. I do like that a MSW does not require a crazy amount of extra schooling, unlike Doctorates (and will cost less!) I do want to be considered a psychologist though which you can't be considered with a masters (partly for the status, but I obviously won't make my decision based on status alone!). I would like to take my schooling as far as I can if it will benefit me the most, though a doctorate (PsyD or PhD) seem to be very complex and somewhat overwhelming. Does that make sense to you? Everyone has theyre own opinion though of the MSW vs PsyD debate so it's tough to choose what's right for me personally.

 

[graduatingsoon]

LucidMind - thanks, I will check it out!!
Dr. E - you are right, I have (and am) considering the battle between an MSW, PhD and PsyD. It is a consideration. I have found from reading others posts that a lot of people feel that a PsyD or PhD is worth the extra work and cost in that they generally make more money, have more opportunities, and more respect, at least that's what I got from it. /QUOTE]

I think you've misunderstood people's posts. I don't think the majority of people think that the PsyD is worth the cost over the MSW. Quite the opposite. If you don't want a career that involves teaching or research, spare yourself the extra 4 years of training and avoid PsyD/PhD programs. The income difference between the MSW and PsyD is non-existent when you factor in the cost.

 

[jmasterson]

Okay, money wise yeah, the PsyD cost is obscene. But in the long run, isnt the income higher?
Also, would someone with a Masters in Social Work have the same authority and opportunities as someone with their doctorate? One of the only differences I've heard is that someone with a doctorate can do assessments and someone with an LICSW or comparable cannot. I'd be open to hearing what others have to say on this. I'm still learning, obviously, so if anyone with a MSW or knowledgable about it would be up to giving some differences between a masters and doctorate, or description of what a therapist with their masters is like, I'd love to hear it. Perhaps a masters is the way to go. Thanks for the great advice everyone, it's very helpful.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Okay, money wise yeah, the PsyD cost is obscene. But in the long run, isnt the income higher?
Also, would someone with a Masters in Social Work have the same authority and opportunities as someone with their doctorate? One of the only differences I've heard is that someone with a doctorate can do assessments and someone with an LICSW or comparable cannot. I'd be open to hearing what others have to say on this. I'm still learning, obviously, so if anyone with a MSW or knowledgable about it would be up to giving some differences between a masters and doctorate, or description of what a therapist with their masters is like, I'd love to hear it. Perhaps a masters is the way to go. Thanks for the great advice everyone, it's very helpful.

I believe SDN has a master's board too where you can post and get info. I would also talk to licensed professionals out in the field and find out about their day to day work and their reflections on their degree path.

I think you may be over-estimating the income potential of the doctorate. Yes, an insurance company will usually reimburse a few bucks more for a doctorate rather than a master's. From talking to colleagues (in my part of the country) the difference between what I get and what they get is usually $5-10/hr. Of course that is if you are in private practice (see other discussions on here about why PP can be a really undesirable work setting). If you want a "real job" with an employer (and benefits) you may have similar if not MORE opportunities with a master's. Many jobs are looking for a clinician with a MSW/PCC/PhD/PsyD. Of course, on this board, we find this quite offensive because they are not interchangeable, but in many employer's eyes they are. Also, I have had more than one PhD friend get a job by talking an employer into considering them for a position posted for an MSW (with the MSW like compensation). Yes, employers typically pay less for MSW's, but that if those are they only jobs that they will hire for, it is a moot point.

Yes, psychologists have the ability to do formalized assessments with MMPI, IQ batteries, and stuff like that. Some also go on to specialize in neuropsych and do a lot of that type of assessment. Is that a particular interest?

My journey was different from yours. I loved research as an undergrad and went to a fully funded, respected PhD program intending to be a professor. During the program, I decided I did not like the work environment and mentality of academia, so I decided to go for a more clinical path. Although I currently am happy with the work I do (other than the income) I would never have done a doctorate if I knew I was "just" going to do clinical work. I feel like I lost my entire 20's due to the training and those are years I cannot get back. Graduate school was also a really miserable experience. And remember, I love research. If you don't I can't imagine how unhappy you will be. If you don't even feel excited about getting involved in the prerequisite research as an undergrad, this is going to be a really long haul for you!

Good luck!
Dr. E

 

[jmasterson]

Dr. Eliza, thanks for your opinion, it really gives me something to think about. I do worry that getting my doctorate would be a long and difficult process (as I know it is for many people), especially me as I don't have a passion for research. So, I am correct to say that you wish you received your MSW instead of your PhD? That really gives me something to think about. That being said, I'm still going to try and gain more research and clinical experience to try and get a feel for where my path is taking me more specifically. Now that I know what a PsyD and PhD is looking for in undergrads, do MSW need to have any experience to get into schools or is it just preferred?

 

[HomeworkHelper]

... I'm not interested in teaching Psych either. ...I do see the value of research - I will try to get some experience in my junior and senior year. I am not sure what kind of research I'd be interested in though - how do you find that out without actually doing it? QUOTE]

A couple points I wanted to respond to. First, it's possible that you may be incorrect in your perception about teaching unless you've had some prior teaching experience and know you don't like it. As an example, prior to starting graduate school, I did NOT think that I would like teaching at all. As someone interested in research, I also thought I would only like clinical work "okay." As soon as I got experiences with both teaching and clinical work, I realized I liked both of them quite a lot in addition to research. It was amazing to me how much I was wrong prior to getting experience in those areas.

Secondly, with respect to the area of research, I would look to see what type of research folks at your school are conducting (e.g. by looking up faculty pages) and seeing what stands out to you as most interesting. I don't think it matters a whole lot what kind of research experience you get, but the closer the research is to what you'll end up doing (e.g. clinically focused research, or a topic area you are particularly interested in) may help. I would respond to any research assistant postings or email research profs cold and say you're interested in seeing if they have any research opportunities (I would include a description of why you're interested in getting research experience, why you're interested in their research, and your prior relevant experiences). Finally, if you're choosing between a couple that sound interesting, consider how involved in the research you will get to be, with the more involvement the better...or if they want you to be involved for a longer period of time, also that will be better.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Dr. Eliza, thanks for your opinion, it really gives me something to think about. I do worry that getting my doctorate would be a long and difficult process (as I know it is for many people), especially me as I don't have a passion for research. So, I am correct to say that you wish you received your MSW instead of your PhD? That really gives me something to think about. That being said, I'm still going to try and gain more research and clinical experience to try and get a feel for where my path is taking me more specifically. Now that I know what a PsyD and PhD is looking for in undergrads, do MSW need to have any experience to get into schools or is it just preferred?

I would say that if I did it again I would go for an MD and become a psychiatrist. There is a huge need for psychiatrists and there are many good opportunities with good compensation. It is not a fit for everyone, but I enjoy learning about medical stuff and I suspect it would have been a good fit for me. Other than that, MSW probably would probably be my second choice. I would not do the funded PhD and no way would I attend a program that would saddle me with any significant amount of debt. It is too hard to make a high salary as a clinician for that to pay off.

Definitely check out the MSW board. I know you have to be thoughtful about your school selection for an MSW because different schools can focus on very different types of social work.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[jmasterson]

Homeworkhelper,
I go to a small state school and so research oppertunities are few and far between. As I'm transferring schools for my next semester, I am planning on transfer to a bigger, more opportunity rich environment. I will certainly take your advice once I transfer and see what projects are going on at my school.
Doctor Eliza, I will take a look at the MWS boards. Thanks a lot, you've been a great help.

 

[cara susanna]

I would try research before you decide that you don't like it. As an UG I decided to get involved in research only because I knew it'd be necessary for admission into a Clinical PhD program (like you, I wanted to be a clinician primarily). Then I fell in love with it and now am aiming for a research-oriented career over a clinically-oriented one.

 

[jmasterson]

After doing some more research on MSW I now am concerned that, from what others have said in the forum, that those with a MSW arent really geared towards becoming a therapist or doing psychotherapy, even when programs lean towards being more clinical. I was under the impression that someone could go to school for their MSW, get their LCSW and become a therapist for their career (even if it was eventually - after doing some social work jobs, etc). Is this incorrect?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

After doing some more research on MSW I now am concerned that, from what others have said in the forum, that those with a MSW arent really geared towards becoming a therapist or doing psychotherapy, even when programs lean towards being more clinical. I was under the impression that someone could go to school for their MSW, get their LCSW and become a therapist for their career (even if it was eventually - after doing some social work jobs, etc). Is this incorrect?

LCSW's certainly can, and do, become psychotherapists. Much will depend on the focus of the specific training program, as you've mentioned, as well as perhaps any additional certifications/training you might look into afterward.

 

[fallen625]

I would try research before you decide that you don't like it. As an UG I decided to get involved in research only because I knew it'd be necessary for admission into a Clinical PhD program (like you, I wanted to be a clinician primarily). Then I fell in love with it and now am aiming for a research-oriented career over a clinically-oriented one.

That. I had the same thing happen to me. Either way - getting involved in research as an undergraduate won't hurt (whether you end up liking it or not).