University of Washington: Low Scores for Average Accepted Student?

[MDPhDGuy]

I was looking at the MSAR and was surprised to see that the average MCAT and GPA of accepted candidates was 31/3.75. This is significantly lower than schools ranked around the University of Washington (~rank 10). Why is the average so low? Is it because of high preference for in-state? How's the competition for OOS?

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[Chip N Sawbones]

The rankings are bogus, and they do not always correlate well with how difficult it is go get in.

UW is a state school and has a strong state bias. A partnership with Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho called the WWAMI program reserves seats for students from these states and gives them (sort of) instate tuition. It is almost impossible to get in from outside of the region unless you have stupendous stats and a demonstrated interest in rural medicine.

 

[Hemorrage]

I was looking at the MSAR and was surprised to see that the average MCAT and GPA of accepted candidates was 31/3.75. This is significantly lower than schools ranked around the University of Washington (~rank 10). Why is the average so low? Is it because of high preference for in-state? How's the competition for OOS?

Last time i checked getting a 3.75 GPA and a 31 on the MCAT wasn't easy, that being said, UW is a state school and they have heavy regional bias in admissions. Their rankings are very strong because they have a very strong research network in Seattle amongst the different hospitals and research groups (Childrens, Cancer Institute, etc)

 

[mcloaf]

I was looking at the MSAR and was surprised to see that the average MCAT and GPA of accepted candidates was 31/3.75. This is significantly lower than schools ranked around the University of Washington (~rank 10). Why is the average so low? Is it because of high preference for in-state? How's the competition for OOS?

Because if you aren't from a WWAMI state they pretty much DGAF about your application.

 

[I Love Cats]

Because if you aren't from a WWAMI state they pretty much DGAF about your application.

Amen. The one secondary I didn't get.

 

[bigdogrob4284]

The rankings are bogus, and they do not always correlate well with how difficult it is go get in.

UW is a state school and has a strong state bias. A partnership with Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho called the WWAMI program reserves seats for students from these states and gives them (sort of) instate tuition. It is almost impossible to get in from outside of the region unless you have stupendous stats and a demonstrated interest in rural medicine.

This.

 

[BABSstudent]

Read their mission statement. It isn't to create the smartest, most research interested doctors. It is to create physicians that will practice in underserved or rural areas. Those students do not necessarily have the highest GPA not MCAT.

The school also does blind interviews, meaning the interviewers don't know what your scores are.

 

[bigdogrob4284]

The school also does blind interviews, meaning the interviewers don't know what your scores are.

I believe the Executive Committee member on the interview panel has your scores.

 

[BABSstudent]

Yes, they do but I believe the blind interviewers score you and then that goes to the excom meeting.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Interviewers don't know scores, but the in-state bias is what brings down those averages. In the end, applicants outside of the WWAMI area have close to zero (was zero the year I applied) chance of getting in.

You see the same thing in other places with significant in-state bias, where averages don't seem to correlate to rank whatsoever.

On the other hand, there are some schools (Wash U St. Louis) that aren't very highly ranked, but have an average accepted MCAT of 37-39 (depending on the year). The process is somewhat random.

 

[487806]

On the other hand, there are some schools (Wash U St. Louis) that aren't very highly ranked, but have an average accepted MCAT of 37-39 (depending on the year). The process is somewhat random.

Isn't WashU higher ranked than UW? It's also a Top 10 school.

 

[BABSstudent]

Isn't WashU higher ranked than UW? It's also a Top 10 school.

Depends on what you are going for. And now for the list that we all hate but totally look at.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ools/washington-university-in-st.-louis-04060

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...edical-schools/university-of-washington-04122

 

[CrimsonKing]

Depends on what you are going for. And now for the list that we all hate but totally look at.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ools/washington-university-in-st.-louis-04060

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...edical-schools/university-of-washington-04122

👍

WashU has good research. Terrible primary care.

Wash has best primary care, and solid research.

EDIT: Look at the research methodology. Residency PD evaluations of students count into the primary care ranking, which honestly matters way more than research ranking, except possibly those interested in getting a PhD.

 

[thesauce]

👍

WashU has good research. Terrible primary care.

Wash has best primary care, and solid research.

I've never understood the primary care ranking. You don't really learn primary care in med school - that's what residency is for. And if anyone thinks that WashU is going to somehow limit your ability to go into primary care, they are simply delusional. Secondly, they put a lot of weight on how many actually go into primary care as if that is some important measure of school quality. Lastly, no one outside of this of forum pays any attention to primary care rankings. Med school ranking in any other context refers to the research ranking.

 

[487806]

Depends on what you are going for. And now for the list that we all hate but totally look at.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ools/washington-university-in-st.-louis-04060

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...edical-schools/university-of-washington-04122

👍

WashU has good research. Terrible primary care.

Wash has best primary care, and solid research.

EDIT: Look at the research methodology. Residency PD evaluations of students count into the primary care ranking, which honestly matters way more than research ranking, except possibly those interested in getting a PhD.

The US News primary care ranking is irrelevant... Not sure why that still exists. The rankings on research best correlates with what Top 20 is. Also, isn't primary care being replaced by advanced nursing programs?

I've never understood the primary care ranking. You don't really learn primary care in med school - that's what residency is for. And if anyone thinks that WashU is going to somehow limit your ability to go into primary care, they are simply delusional. Secondly, they put a lot of weight on how many actually go into primary care as if that is some important measure of school quality. Lastly, no one outside of this of forum pays any attention to primary care rankings. Med school ranking in any other context refers to the research ranking.

Well said.

 

[dbeast]

UW actually publishes US news and world report magazine. They'd put themselves at #1 but it would be too suspicious since everybody knows nothing good comes out of Washington.

 

[JBOB]

UW actually publishes US news and world report magazine. They'd put themselves at #1 but it would be too suspicious since everybody knows nothing good comes out of Washington.

Some things in US News rankings are relatively objective (residency director surveys, ect) and UW consistently does well in those areas. Just sayin.

 

[red doctober]

Maybe OP's question was intended to be more along the lines of, "Despite having a lower average GPA/MCAT than many of the schools ranked below it, how is Washington ranked so high in the research USNWR rankings, which makes up ~20% of the score?" Washington ranked 7th in total NIH research dollars in 2012, which is a rough estimate for the 30% of the score given to research activity. 10% of the score goes to Student:Faculty ratio, and the remaining 40% is peer assessment done by medical school and hospital administrators as well as residency directors. Primary care is not a factor in the research rankings.

NIH research data: http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2012/NIH_Awards_2012.htm

 

[wavewheel]

I'm going to give a biased answer, because I've been accepted at UW and will likely be attending next year. But I think a big part of UW's ranking is due to it's highly competitive residency programs, which don't give any preference to in-state residents. I think that the strength of its residency programs plus its history of turning out impressive research combine to give UW a (deserved) reputation as an academic powerhouse. And if you look at the US News research ranking methodology, 40% of a school's score is based on reputation (peer evaluation and residency director evaluation), 30% is based on research activity, and only 20% is based on median student MCAT and GPA.

I think it's also worth noting that UW has a particularly holistic and non-numbers-driven admission process. They routinely turn down people with nearly perfect MCAT and GPAs in favor of those with a commitment to the underserved or just the perspective that comes from unique life experiences. I had a good GPA and a 99.9th percentile MCAT and not once during the admissions process did I get the impression that either of those numbers were particularly interesting to the UW admissions folks. In my interview we spent a lot of time talking about what I've learned working as a caregiver for a quadriplegic, my experiences as a Congressional staffer and a journalist and what they'd taught me about the health care system, and my interest in continuing to write as I pursue a career as a physician.

UW's emphasis is a shift for me after doing my undergrad at an Ivy where selectivity was often the main currency of what mattered. You can get back to me in 4 years, but I think I like UW's approach better. Being a good doctor -- or living a good life -- is about so much more than selectivity and "numbers."

 

[thesauce]

I'm going to give a biased answer, because I've been accepted at UW and will likely be attending next year. But I think a big part of UW's ranking is due to it's highly competitive residency programs, which don't give any preference to in-state residents. I think that the strength of its residency programs plus its history of turning out impressive research combine to give UW a (deserved) reputation as an academic powerhouse. And if you look at the US News research ranking methodology, 40% of a school's score is based on reputation (peer evaluation and residency director evaluation), 30% is based on research activity, and only 20% is based on median student MCAT and GPA.

I think it's also worth noting that UW has a particularly holistic and non-numbers-driven admission process. They routinely turn down people with nearly perfect MCAT and GPAs in favor of those with a commitment to the underserved or just the perspective that comes from unique life experiences. I had a good GPA and a 99.9th percentile MCAT and not once during the admissions process did I get the impression that either of those numbers were particularly interesting to the UW admissions folks. In my interview we spent a lot of time talking about what I've learned working as a caregiver for a quadriplegic, my experiences as a Congressional staffer and a journalist and what they'd taught me about the health care system, and my interest in continuing to write as I pursue a career as a physician.

UW's emphasis is a shift for me after doing my undergrad at an Ivy where selectivity was often the main currency of what mattered. You can get back to me in 4 years, but I think I like UW's approach better. Being a good doctor -- or living a good life -- is about so much more than selectivity and "numbers."

I don't think the rankings have anything to do with their residency programs.

And you won't get far by arguing that MCAT and GPA are somehow the inverse of a holistic process. UW is as selective as they can be (numbers-wise) with the applicants that they have, given their requirement to take in-state applicants. They aren't turning down those students with high scores - those students are going to better schools.

 

[Didierdrogba]

I graduated from the University of Washington as a biology major.

rom my experience, the grading for premed courses is pretty hard (at least to me), probably only about 5-10 people out of a class of 300 could get 4.0 in my biology class. I remember one time I was top 30 in a class of 500 (biochem I), and that only got me a 3.7.....

the above probably has something to do with the low GPA average.

 

[JBOB]

I don't think the rankings have anything to do with their residency programs.

And you won't get far by arguing that MCAT and GPA are somehow the inverse of a holistic process. UW is as selective as they can be (numbers-wise) with the applicants that they have, given their requirement to take in-state applicants. They aren't turning down those students with high scores - those students are going to better schools.

I'm not so sure, UW only admits 1/3 of in state students with >36 MCAT and >3.75 GPA. If they wanted to boost their average stats, you'd think they would accept more than that.

http://www.uwmedicine.org/Education/MD-Program/Admissions/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

 

[Oranges123]

I will also be attending UWSOM this Fall 2013 (go class of 2017 woot woot!).

I think UW's lower scores compared with its peers really does have to do with its interviewing process.
Basically, you're in a room with 3 admissions committee members (2 faculty or students from a general pool of admissions members and 1 executive committee member, the member who "advocates" on your behalf to the entire EXCOM). Everyone can see your AMCAS and your secondary essays, but only the EXCOM member can see your MCAT scores and grades. I think this is really helpful in eliminating biases based off your scores and grades.

This system makes UW's interviews really quite different from the one-on-one faculty interviews at most schools. It also makes the interviews quite challenging and thought-provoking as well.
From my interview experience, they asked me questions about my experiences that I had never been asked before in my interviews at other schools. UW also LOVES scenarios and role-plays about ethical clinical issues and healthcare reform. This is not necessarily to put you on the spot but to evaluate your thinking process (are you able to think critically about these issues? are you able to respond appropriately, like a physician?)

After your interview, the three faculty members write reviews and evaluates you and then the EXCOM member presents those evaluations to the full EXCOM.

So, UW cares less about GPA and MCAT and cares more about the applicant's potential to be a clinician foremost and a researcher second (however, UW's research is seriously no laughing matter. UW research has a HUGEEE presence in the Seattle area that is unchallenged for miles in all directions.) UW actually has the second highest TOTAL (so all schools in addition to the school of medicine) highest NIH funding (after Harvard): I think the figure was 700 million. O_O

Coming from a top 3 university, I also was slightly surprised by UW's GPA and MCAT averages but I realize that just because your MCAT was a 30 doesn't mean that you'll be any less successful than a medical student who had an MCAT of 39.

And to brag about UW even a bit more: UW is really unique among medical schools because it is seriously the ONLY REGIONAL medical school in the US and probably in the world. That means that there are medical school campuses affiliated with UWSOM in Alaska, in Idaho, in Montana, in Wyoming, and in Pullman and Spokane (the Washington state university campuses). The strength of the WWAMI system really shines during clinical year, because you don't just have the option of doing rotations in Seattle hospitals but literally all across the region, like some 200 clinical sites JUST to do clinical rotations. How friggin awesome is that? =)

 

[leond323]

I will also be attending UWSOM this Fall 2013 (go class of 2017 woot woot!).

I think UW's lower scores compared with its peers really does have to do with its interviewing process.
Basically, you're in a room with 3 admissions committee members (2 faculty or students from a general pool of admissions members and 1 executive committee member, the member who "advocates" on your behalf to the entire EXCOM). Everyone can see your AMCAS and your secondary essays, but only the EXCOM member can see your MCAT scores and grades. I think this is really helpful in eliminating biases based off your scores and grades.

This system makes UW's interviews really quite different from the one-on-one faculty interviews at most schools. It also makes the interviews quite challenging and thought-provoking as well.
From my interview experience, they asked me questions about my experiences that I had never been asked before in my interviews at other schools. UW also LOVES scenarios and role-plays about ethical clinical issues and healthcare reform. This is not necessarily to put you on the spot but to evaluate your thinking process (are you able to think critically about these issues? are you able to respond appropriately, like a physician?)

After your interview, the three faculty members write reviews and evaluates you and then the EXCOM member presents those evaluations to the full EXCOM.

So, UW cares less about GPA and MCAT and cares more about the applicant's potential to be a clinician foremost and a researcher second (however, UW's research is seriously no laughing matter. UW research has a HUGEEE presence in the Seattle area that is unchallenged for miles in all directions.) UW actually has the second highest TOTAL (so all schools in addition to the school of medicine) highest NIH funding (after Harvard): I think the figure was 700 million. O_O

Coming from a top 3 university, I also was slightly surprised by UW's GPA and MCAT averages but I realize that just because your MCAT was a 30 doesn't mean that you'll be any less successful than a medical student who had an MCAT of 39.

And to brag about UW even a bit more: UW is really unique among medical schools because it is seriously the ONLY REGIONAL medical school in the US and probably in the world. That means that there are medical school campuses affiliated with UWSOM in Alaska, in Idaho, in Montana, in Wyoming, and in Pullman and Spokane (the Washington state university campuses). The strength of the WWAMI system really shines during clinical year, because you don't just have the option of doing rotations in Seattle hospitals but literally all across the region, like some 200 clinical sites JUST to do clinical rotations. How friggin awesome is that? =)

Congrats on your acceptance! I'm applying to UW this summer and hope to be in your shoes some day! Any advice for a future applicant 😛

 

[BABSstudent]

Congrats on your acceptance! I'm applying to UW this summer and hope to be in your shoes some day! Any advice for a future applicant 😛

Unless you have extensive work with the underserved, save your money. Even as an in state applicant, not doing this can be a death sentence.

 

[mcloaf]

Unless you have extensive work with the underserved, save your money. Even as an in state applicant, not doing this can be a death sentence.

I would say this isn't set in stone. Very strong academics and research can overcome this, but I agree it's much safer to cover this base.

 

[BABSstudent]

I would say this isn't set in stone. Very strong academics and research can overcome this, but I agree it's much safer to cover this base.

The person never said they were IS. You have been on the UW school specific page and have seen the people with 36+ rejected pre-secondary. UW is very serious about the mission statement for non-residents and are even tough on it for residents.

 

[mcloaf]

The person never said they were IS. You have been on the UW school specific page and have seen the people with 36+ rejected pre-secondary. UW is very serious about the mission statement for non-residents and are even tough on it for residents.

TBH if I see people talking about applying to UW I just assume they are WWAMI. 😳

My point was that for IS you may be able to get away with it with strong research and stats, but it's still a gamble (certainly more so than most places).

 

[Ellie Arroway]

At the UW interview day when you say you're not WWAMI everyone looks at you like this:

 

[clued]

I graduated from the University of Washington as a biology major.

rom my experience, the grading for premed courses is pretty hard (at least to me), probably only about 5-10 people out of a class of 300 could get 4.0 in my biology class. I remember one time I was top 30 in a class of 500 (biochem I), and that only got me a 3.7.....

the above probably has something to do with the low GPA average.

I'd have to agree that the grading for most pre-med (just freshman and sophomore years though) is pretty rough. But most of those large classes reserve 4.0's to the top 5% or so..they just need to adjust the grading scale so that the class average grade is between a 2.6-2.8.

 

[thesauce]

I'm not so sure, UW only admits 1/3 of in state students with >36 MCAT and >3.75 GPA. If they wanted to boost their average stats, you'd think they would accept more than that.

http://www.uwmedicine.org/Education/MD-Program/Admissions/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

You see a similar trend in the residency application process. Some schools will rank a student lower if they think that student is unlikely to go there.

In the med school admissions process, if your goal is to train in-state students, then it makes sense to pass up the high-rollers because you know they'll get into great schools elsewhere and accept those that don't have many other options. The end results is more docs being trained from your state/region.

 

[thesauce]

And to brag about UW even a bit more: UW is really unique among medical schools because it is seriously the ONLY REGIONAL medical school in the US and probably in the world. That means that there are medical school campuses affiliated with UWSOM in Alaska, in Idaho, in Montana, in Wyoming, and in Pullman and Spokane (the Washington state university campuses). The strength of the WWAMI system really shines during clinical year, because you don't just have the option of doing rotations in Seattle hospitals but literally all across the region, like some 200 clinical sites JUST to do clinical rotations. How friggin awesome is that? =)

Depending on what you are calling "regional," there are actually many other schools that offer this. However, I'm not sure that it's as great as it's made out to be. Most people don't want to go traipsing all over for rotations that they could just as easily do locally, while enjoying their evenings with their families, friends, etc. If you think the middle-of-nowhere Wyoming has some amazing healthcare training opportunity that can't be found elsewhere, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[mcloaf]

You see a similar trend in the residency application process. Some schools will rank a student lower if they think that student is unlikely to go there.

In the med school admissions process, if your goal is to train in-state students, then it makes sense to pass up the high-rollers because you know they'll get into great schools elsewhere and accept those that don't have many other options. The end results is more docs being trained from your state/region.

Generally speaking I agree with this sentiment. However in this case, for a school with UW's ranking, reputation, and desirable location, I don't believe that it's a big factor.