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kadjk

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Hello,

First off, I know this a double post and I apologize....I mistakenly posted this on th NCPA sub section, but the section seems dead and wasn't sure who to talk to about moving it. I'm a bit anxious cause I would have to make a decision soon.

I recently graduated and became licensed. I work at walgreens and have been floating around, trying various shifts (like overnight), for about a month or so. As the title suggests, I'm not totally satisfied. Don't get me wrong, the job isn't bad or anything (tho it does have its moments)....it's just not fulfilling.

I've interned since 2nd year, starting at CVS and moved onto walgreens around 4th year. And I guess I never really liked the job, but I figured maybe if I become a pharmacist it'll be different....heh not really. I don't hate the job and working 40 hours isn't the problem. I guess I just wish like I was doing more. (And as a side note, i'm not unsatisfied with my life, just my job)

I also rotated at New York Presbyterian Hospital for 6 out of the 9 months of rotations, and did another 2 months at VA and Valley Hospital (1 retail...required). As a staff pharmacist, I think I'd go insane (I like human contact!) and following around clinical pharmacists made me realize that they don't really do much lol (at least in NY). They're like staff/retail pharmacists....only they're "specialized" and follow the doctors around. Again...not fulfilling

I'm 24 this year and wish to move on. Theres a few things I'm interested in.
First is pharmd jd. Are there any available on this forum? I have a few questions...such as schooling, job opportunities, what the job entails, etc.
Second would be md. I'm a bit scared with this one tho. The workload looks overwhelming. But a few quick questions. If I start next year, at what age would I be finishing up? Also, since I took most, if not all, the science courses, do I need any other pre-med classes or can I just apply for med school?
To be honest, my gpa coming out of pharmacy school isn't all too pretty. The first 2 and 1/2 years I slacked off (a miracle I survived), but the last 3 years or so I worked my butt off. Would this play a big role into the schools consideration in taking me? (wish i could use my HS gpa lol)
Any other paths or suggestions I may be available to take?

Finally, are any pharmacists out there truly happy with their job? None, not one of my friends are happy. They like the money just fine, but the job...eh. I'm ok with the pay cut long as I feel like i'm doing something....that I'm satisfied with the job I've done.

Sorry for going on and on.
But thank you for the read and any input. =]

side note: I like interaction with patients, so any administrative type or industrial jobs isn't too appealing. Hmmm...does being a pharmd jd mean I don't have contact with patients?
 
First, I understand where you are coming from. There is a lot about the profession that I see that I am unsatisfied with, particularly the gap between the knowledge that we have and the amount of knowledge that patients and employers utilize.

However, if you are going to go for a second professional degree, I would make sure you are doing it because you really want to do that other profession, not just because you are unsatisfied with your current one. I do think there are way that we can make pharmacy more satisfying through being an innovator and helping the profession move forward.

1. Maybe do a residency, there are plenty of them out there and many in non-traditional areas as well. Yeah, you will take a pay cut, but you would probably take a pay cut moving anywhere else besides Walgreens. Also, in my limited experience, pharmacy practice definitely can be different between states so if you are flexible geographically, you could try working in a state with more progressive pharmacy practice laws.

2. Look into getting a copy of APhA's pharmaceutical care book. It is about 230 pages, but an easy read but has some good information on starting up new services from the ground up. Then try to get a job at a smaller independent pharmacy who would be more willing to let you try to create and market some expanded clinical services in the community setting (e.g. med reviews, diabetes management, asthma, screenings). You can also look in the current literature to see what other pharmacists are doing to keep things interesting (e.g. asheville project)

Hope this helps, I am still only a fourth-year student, but I have thought much about this issue when planning my foreseeable future.
 
Hi and thanks for the well written response.

Like I mentioned, I did do most of my rotations in a hospital thinking I may do a residency. And after observing the clinical pharmacists (and residents too), I made the realization like I mentioned earlier. Although I do hear out west it is a bit different and more progressive like you say. I would like any input from residents/clinical pharmacists out there if we have any.

The other thing is...being a doctor was and still is very appealing. When I first applied for colleges, I wasn't really thinking much into the future and I was lazy. And honestly I thought pharmacists would be able to develop/make drugs (which I thought was cool at the time), but found out in third year that all we do is test them(lol).

But I will take what you've posted into consideration. Thank you
 
You can try to get into Nuclear, Home infusion, or LTC pharmacy.
 
I was fed up with retail after a year. Went into sales/marketing with pharma and had a great time for the next 30 years.
johnep
 
I recently attended a panel that featured a JD/PharmD. She said that she graduated with her PharmD at 24 and worked at Walgreens and did a part-time JD. She currently works at Bayer as part of a committee that reviews all marketing that leaves the company - so she puts her clinical and law knowledge to use.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...raduate-schools/top-law-schools/part-time-law

I actually have another friend doing the same exact thing in Washington DC at GWU. From what they have said, most JD/PharmD go into industry, private law practice, or the government.
 
ooh thank you for inputs!

Law is another three years right? And med school would be another 4-7?

hmmmm
 
Med school is going to be a lot more work than a JD. Plus to practice its going to take you at LEAST 7 years, depending on what residency you do.
 
looking back, i shouldve went back to law school...imo a pharmd + jd is a powerhouse combination...i was just too burned and dont think i have enough left in the brain to do law school....but IF you can do it, you are 24, go for it NOW, you wont regret it....do pharmd + jd and hit the pharma industry, and you are made


btw, im in the same boat as you at wags, but im going back for a residency if i get one
 
johnep34 said:
I was fed up with retail after a year. Went into sales/marketing with pharma and had a great time for the next 30 years.
johnep
Click to expand...

i'm curious how much retail has changed over 30 years....where's Old Timer when you need him.
 
Argentium said:
I recently attended a panel that featured a JD/PharmD. She said that she graduated with her PharmD at 24 and worked at Walgreens and did a part-time JD. She currently works at Bayer as part of a committee that reviews all marketing that leaves the company - so she puts her clinical and law knowledge to use.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...raduate-schools/top-law-schools/part-time-law

I actually have another friend doing the same exact thing in Washington DC at GWU. From what they have said, most JD/PharmD go into industry, private law practice, or the government.
Click to expand...

Sweet job, I wonder if there are many opportunities on the west coast compared to the biotech heavy east. I wonder if the firms in La Jolla/SD need similar services.
 
Old Timer said:
What do you want to know about the good old days....
Click to expand...

Oh mostly about johnep34's reasons for leaving and if they're valid now. Hopefully he'll come back to post.

Claim submission and technology aside, has the pharmacist-patient dynamic changed much? I would think that as time went on and the generations cycled through, there would be less emphasis on getting to know who was behind the counter, except maybe for a small subset or people (ie older population).
 
hey guys,

Yes, I am from st. johns...do i kno you pinkpillowzz? lol

And I still am curious as to what the job entails exactly for a pharmd jd... I'm interested to find out but can't seem to find one to talk to? haha

In terms of the length of schooling required, I'm not too worried (med school definitely feels a bit more intimidating tho, esp the workload). I'd be in my 30s but isn't that how it is for most MDs? lol also, not to be a bum or anything but doesn't seem like my questions from my original post has been answered...if someone may I'd be grateful =]

Thanks for all the replys!
 
kadjk said:
lol also, not to be a bum or anything but doesn't seem like my questions from my original post has been answered...if someone may I'd be grateful =]

Thanks for all the replys!
Click to expand...

Something i've observed: a lot of pharmacists answer questions with questions or go down insignificant branches. The answering questions with a question, while sounding perhaps like an intelligent maneuver, is unfortunately just to create more questions and is a struggle with indecisiveness.

I like to watch the ID pharmacists at my hospital as they go from one indecisive person to the next when it comes time to need a decision. Well maybe the doc knows he has MRSA and is empirically using vanc. Maybe he had it before and it's not in the hospital records. Maybe it's a prophylaxis we haven't heard of. Maybe you don't double cover in this situation. Maybe we should recommend double coverage, but do you think single coverage will be fine? Not sure. The drug should be reduced in renal failure? Well he's borderline. I'm fine with it. Do you think I should call? Maybe I should call. I'm not sure, it's probably not a big deal. I mean, it's only 5 ml/min under right? Maybe he's just dry. Is his creatinine always high? Should I call? I dunno. Maybe the doc read an article we didn't and it's actually ok. Oh well, time for break!

No joke.
 
You're right requiem, we do ask quite a bit of questions. It's sort of in our nature (actually its drilled into us during school). And I've realized most people who become pharmacists have a bit of "perfectionism" type thinking process (again probably drilled into us).

It's not that pharmacists are indecisive, its just...with our license on the line, we have to know the whole situation before making a decision. We're not like the doctors in that we can scrutinize the patient left and right. All we have are papers with numbers and words telling us what the situation is. And unfortunately, these numbers and words don't paint the whole picture. So we have to ask questions.

The more questions are asked, the more answers we'll get. The more answers we have, the better we treat the patient.

I'm not 100% sure what field you're in, but the better we treat the patient, the better life is for all =]

And you didn't answer my question (even with a question)....
 
confettiflyer said:
Oh mostly about johnep34's reasons for leaving and if they're valid now. Hopefully he'll come back to post.

Claim submission and technology aside, has the pharmacist-patient dynamic changed much? I would think that as time went on and the generations cycled through, there would be less emphasis on getting to know who was behind the counter, except maybe for a small subset or people (ie older population).
Click to expand...

I don't know why he left. Retail is retail. It's the same now as it was then as far as your day to day duties. There are two main differences:

1) The first is the reimbursement is so low you need to do a much higher volume to survive today than you did 30 years ago when I started out. You could make a nice living filling 800 scripts a week in a 73 hour week. With lower volume, you are able to spend more time with each individual patient and you get to know much more about them. We used to send care packages to the kids at camp. We delivered. We had a reserved newspaper list for the Sunday paper. Personal charge accounts. Today, at 800 scripts per week, you will starve.

2) Society has changed. People are much mare narcissistic. They don't give a crap about you unless they can crap on you, It's all about them. They don't want to know you. They will leave you in a heartbeat if their insurance says so.

But the day to day activities of being a pharmacist has not changed. You type, you count, you pour. It's pretty mundane most of the time. Most of the time the drugs are OK, there are no interactions, no contraindications. In that case you can pump out an RX in 2 minutes. But scattered through the day there are times when you have to really use your clinical skills. The patient with renal failure on Cipro BID. What's the CrCl? Should the dose be reduced? The patient on Luvox and Mellaril. Have they had an EKG? Is the MD aware? The patient from the ER with Lortab elixir 1 tsp instead of 1 tablespoonful. Do they have a sensitivity to narcotics? That's still the same as it always was.
 
kadjk said:
You're right requiem, we do ask quite a bit of questions. It's sort of in our nature (actually its drilled into us during school). And I've realized most people who become pharmacists have a bit of "perfectionism" type thinking process (again probably drilled into us).

It's not that pharmacists are indecisive, its just...with our license on the line, we have to know the whole situation before making a decision. We're not like the doctors in that we can scrutinize the patient left and right. All we have are papers with numbers and words telling us what the situation is. And unfortunately, these numbers and words don't paint the whole picture. So we have to ask questions.

The more questions are asked, the more answers we'll get. The more answers we have, the better we treat the patient.

I'm not 100% sure what field you're in, but the better we treat the patient, the better life is for all =]

And you didn't answer my question (even with a question)....
Click to expand...

First off I'm actually a pharmacist. I appreciate your answer, and I'm well aware of the over-anal perfectionism attitude permeating the pharmacy - it's counter productive to healthy debate. If your license is on the line, be proactive and get **** done. Twiddling your thumbs and debating if a patient is dry, when NO ONE actually knows anyway, is useless. That's the issue, not about being right or wrong, but about actually doing something.

To answer your question, directly, no I'm not happy with my job. Further to this I'm planning on leaving and doing graduate school in an area yet to be determined. I enjoy mathematics and pharmacology. If I do math, I'd have to finish an undergrad and then do the grad school work. If I do the latter, it's a straight acceptance into a pharmacology program.

To speak to your situation - you have to research either law or medicine much more. Medicine typically demands a passion for it; if you aren't sure you have it, you probably don't. GPA is also a critical factor in the application, and not knowing what yours is I can't speak to it, but obviously it's competitive. Bottom line is you need to decide which field you have more passion for. If it's law, or if it's medicine, arbitrary factors like "length of program" won't matter because you're pursuing your passion. Which is what I'm attempting to do as well - except mine is teaching, and becoming a professor.
 
I'm aware you keep saying you're unsatisfied simply with your job, and not your life. I'm not convinced at all.

Pursuing a JD is really hard work. You'll have to a good amount of your "life" studying for LSATs, and after going through school again for another 3 years of your life, you're going to be working SO MUCH. Having a Pharm.D and graduating from law school does not simply mean your going to have Pfizer, Merck, Bristol-Myers fighting each other to hire you. Your going to have to work in a firm, like most lawyers, and you'll be focusing on a certain kind of law--dealing with health care, patents, whatever. Your "life" is going to be full of work.

Becoming a doctor, well thats another 7 years minimum of your life going to studying, taking tests, and doing residency. If you want to specialize, go ahead, only another few more years.

You have an excellent degree, a Pharm.D. There are so many possibilities with it. You just have to go out and find what you want to do. Switching professions is not the best answer in my opinion.
 
heh I'm sorry, but I don't have to convince you about anything, especially my own life. As far as I'm concerned, my life outside pharmacy is satisfying.

But you are right, there are plenty of opportunities. I've been to midyear, listened to quite a few guest speakers in school, and have read through articles and whatnot about the various fields within pharmacy. But I never found them to perk my interest. Also you are correct in saying the degree is excellent. I'm not saying pharmacy is a bad field, just not for me. Furthermore, to advance in pharmacy, more schooling/residencies/fellowship is required. This is minimum 2 years nowadays to be worth it.

But then again time isn't necessarily an issue. I understand the hardships with other career paths. I stated that I am intimidated by whats to come in md schooling, which isn't to say that a law degree is going to be a walk in the park. I aware of that and also of the hardships beyond that. But it is something that I am interested in.

This post wasn't necessarily to say I'm definitely moving onto jd or md. But my wishes and questions regarding those two fields.

plz answer my questions haha =D
 
pinkpillowzz said:
I'm aware you keep saying you're unsatisfied simply with your job, and not your life. I'm not convinced at all.

Pursuing a JD is really hard work. You'll have to a good amount of your "life" studying for LSATs, and after going through school again for another 3 years of your life, you're going to be working SO MUCH. Having a Pharm.D and graduating from law school does not simply mean your going to have Pfizer, Merck, Bristol-Myers fighting each other to hire you. Your going to have to work in a firm, like most lawyers, and you'll be focusing on a certain kind of law--dealing with health care, patents, whatever. Your "life" is going to be full of work.

Becoming a doctor, well thats another 7 years minimum of your life going to studying, taking tests, and doing residency. If you want to specialize, go ahead, only another few more years.

You have an excellent degree, a Pharm.D. There are so many possibilities with it. You just have to go out and find what you want to do. Switching professions is not the best answer in my opinion.
Click to expand...

its not really switching professions, you are using both degrees in your job...and if you can think outside the box, the lsat isnt that hard, ive taken it and it wasnt too bad...of course there are opportunities with pharmd, but jd and pharmd together create unique opportunities plus the chance to earn 3 times the salary, so the financial reward is there also...you can work in pharma, you can teach at pharm schools (with the terms of contract dictated by you), etc...getting that JD is 3 more hard years, but i think if one has the ability to do it, then go for it
 
pinkpillowzz said:
I'm aware you keep saying you're unsatisfied simply with your job, and not your life. I'm not convinced at all.

Pursuing a JD is really hard work. You'll have to a good amount of your "life" studying for LSATs, and after going through school again for another 3 years of your life, you're going to be working SO MUCH. Having a Pharm.D and graduating from law school does not simply mean your going to have Pfizer, Merck, Bristol-Myers fighting each other to hire you. Your going to have to work in a firm, like most lawyers, and you'll be focusing on a certain kind of law--dealing with health care, patents, whatever. Your "life" is going to be full of work.

Becoming a doctor, well thats another 7 years minimum of your life going to studying, taking tests, and doing residency. If you want to specialize, go ahead, only another few more years.

You have an excellent degree, a Pharm.D. There are so many possibilities with it. You just have to go out and find what you want to do. Switching professions is not the best answer in my opinion.
Click to expand...

its not really switching professions, you are using both degrees in your job...and if you can think outside the box, the lsat isnt that hard, ive taken it and it wasnt too bad...of course there are opportunities with pharmd, but jd and pharmd together create unique opportunities plus the chance to earn 3 times the salary, so the financial reward is there also...you can work in pharma, you can teach at pharm schools (with the terms of contract dictated by you), etc(think about how many people have jd + pharmd? not many)...getting that JD is 3 more hard years, but i think if one has the ability to do it, then go for it
 
There are too much lawyers already. The only kind of lawyers that make big buck these day are divorce and injury lawyers. Better yet get a MBA degree focused on finance and start a job at NYSE as an institutional trader or hedge fund manager. Guarantee to make middle six figured salary and have an exciting job.
 
no i just dont have left in the tank to do 3 more yrs of school, BUT, if you can do it, GO for it

you can teach, do consulting work (you can charge a lot for this), work for big pharma, etc....all things you can do with a pharmd, but in a more limited scope and less dollars
 
When I took health economics we had a guest speaker who got an MD/MBA and was working on Wall Street making some $$$
 
i believe the best is to go along with a PharmD is an MBA or masters in economics, and work in the business world.
 
hi

thanks for your inputs!

after some thought.....maybe md would be too much. I think I'll burn out before I finish hah...

um what kind of job could I go for with pharm/mba?

thanks
 
kadjk said:
Hi and thanks for the well written response.

Like I mentioned, I did do most of my rotations in a hospital thinking I may do a residency. And after observing the clinical pharmacists (and residents too), I made the realization like I mentioned earlier. Although I do hear out west it is a bit different and more progressive like you say. I would like any input from residents/clinical pharmacists out there if we have any.

The other thing is...being a doctor was and still is very appealing. When I first applied for colleges, I wasn't really thinking much into the future and I was lazy. And honestly I thought pharmacists would be able to develop/make drugs (which I thought was cool at the time), but found out in third year that all we do is test them(lol).

But I will take what you've posted into consideration. Thank you
Click to expand...

well down here in florida, all the clinical pharmacist i talked to and spoked at our class sure makes seems they do some important jobs. I mean this dude literally was in the ER seeing a physician manually pump a patient's heart but at last the patient passed. Well he is an ER pharmacist so...
 
kadjk, what exactly are you unsatisfied with? Is the job boring? repetitive?

I dont see how a job as a physician would be much more fun, are you wanting more patient interaction?
 
Old Timer said:
I don't know why he left. Retail is retail. It's the same now as it was then as far as your day to day duties. There are two main differences:

1) The first is the reimbursement is so low you need to do a much higher volume to survive today than you did 30 years ago when I started out. You could make a nice living filling 800 scripts a week in a 73 hour week. With lower volume, you are able to spend more time with each individual patient and you get to know much more about them. We used to send care packages to the kids at camp. We delivered. We had a reserved newspaper list for the Sunday paper. Personal charge accounts. Today, at 800 scripts per week, you will starve.

2) Society has changed. People are much mare narcissistic. They don't give a crap about you unless they can crap on you, It's all about them. They don't want to know you. They will leave you in a heartbeat if their insurance says so.

But the day to day activities of being a pharmacist has not changed. You type, you count, you pour. It's pretty mundane most of the time. Most of the time the drugs are OK, there are no interactions, no contraindications. In that case you can pump out an RX in 2 minutes. But scattered through the day there are times when you have to really use your clinical skills. The patient with renal failure on Cipro BID. What's the CrCl? Should the dose be reduced? The patient on Luvox and Mellaril. Have they had an EKG? Is the MD aware? The patient from the ER with Lortab elixir 1 tsp instead of 1 tablespoonful. Do they have a sensitivity to narcotics? That's still the same as it always was.
Click to expand...

I currently work for an independent pharmacy like the one you described. This is how pharmacy should be. We play an integral role in our small community. Major chains seem to solely work on volume and lose all the meaning behind a community pharmacy. I would love to own my own pharmacy one day. I truly believe that is an accomplishment I will be utterly satisfied with.
 
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