Up and coming programs?

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AHillock

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I tried doing a search on this topic, but couldn't really find anything that answered my questions. I know there are all of those "Top 5" and the 82 list. But I guess I am really concerned about what those of you who interviewed or did elective rotations thought about some of the places that you visited. I have heard some talk about Miami positively changing with a new chair and other faculty. I'm not so bent on going to a "top 5" program but would like to know of some lesser name programs that are diamonds in the rough so to speak.
 
It's hard to say which are up and coming as how 'good' your program is can fluctuate (with the loss and addition of faculty, fellowships, how well you recruit, funding, etc.)

If you search through these forums, you may see some programs that are less desirable for various reasons. You may want to stay away from those.

Miami is considered a very good program, though it does get bashed on here quite a bit. Know Spanish, though. In Chicago, it seems NU is emerging as the leader over UChicago and Rush (which lost a lot of its faculty, in CVA I believe). Southwestern sometimes gets bashed but is quite popular and picking up as well.

MCW (Milwaukee) seems to be a good one that's not mentioned too often.
 
Hello all, I’m a current resident at Barrows. I don’t know how much we are an “up and coming program” as much as an oft overlooked program… probably due to geographical reasons and our lack of a formal affiliation with a medical school. I’m pretty proud of the program we have here and would encourage people to come check us out.

We work in the Phoenix’s largest hospital, St. Joseph’s. The new, dedicated neuroscience tower built two years ago features 64 neuro-ICU beds, 32 neuro-tele beds, 16 EMU beds. We run two very busy, high-paced inpatient services and a separate stroke service. Acute stroke is very well organized and aggressive: we thrombolize a lot. Barrows is the major neuro tertiary center for the Southwest: our catchment area extends from Palm Springs, southern Nevada, and through parts of New Mexico. To be honest, things here can get really busy on call, but the ancillary staff is great, and the hospital has the resources to get things done. (Minimal scut, no wait for scans, etc.)

There are six residents per class, and we have a night float system. Generally, as a PGY-2 resident, you take call twice per month (one weekday, one weekend) and night float for four weeks. It’s a very reasonable schedule with ample elective time.

There is good breadth in terms of subspecialty representation… stroke, epilepsy, neuro-onc, neuroimmunology, neuromuscular, movement, cognitive, neuro-ophtho… Just like anywhere else, there are good teachers and not-so-good ones, too, but the end result is that you get the “complete” clinical experience… I really believe that our senior residents have seen it all… they’re very confident and match in some great places.

I know that Phoenix might not be everybody’s cup of tea, but the summers are bearable, real estate is affordable, and there’s plenty to do around the city. PM this account with questions…
 
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I would say that the BNI program is VERY well-respected amongst those 'in the know,' while it may not have a household name. It's definitely not up-and-coming, as it's already 'up.'
 
This will surprise you, but NIH dollars going to Texas Neurology faculty 2001-2007.

1) Univ. Texas HSC - San Antonio = $ 52 Million*
2) Baylor College of Medicine = $ 31 Million
3) UT - Southwestern = $ 27 Million
4) UT HSC - Houston = $ 14 Million
5) UTMB - Galveston = $ 11 Million

http://www.uthscsa.edu/neurology/

*This figure does not include over $10 Million awarded to the Research Imaging Center led by Dr. Peter Fox, a Wash.U. trained Neurologist and adjunct Neurology faculty.
 
Thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming. I wonder if the older more established programs are a safer bet, or if it is worth experimenting with some of the programs that are really trying to grow and expand their departments?
 
Neurology is a vast science that you need to master in 3 years of 80 hrs/wk. Become the best clinician that you can be. That is the role of a great Neurology residency. If you are interested in an academic career or in doing research, you might want to get a taste of what research is about; use 2-3 months of elective time on doing research, and if you like research, then plan for your fellowship. If you know that you want to do research, then just do it during your fellowship primarily.

Once you become a faculty member, 10-15 years down the line, the critical questions would not be: Where did you go to med school?, or Where did you train for residency or fellowship?, or even Where you are a faculty member? The critical 2 questions are:
What have you published?
What are your contributions to the field?
That is what makes you important.

Having 10 great scientists in the Department of Neurology hidiing in the lab, does not help you at all, unless you work with 1 of them during electives or during your fellowship. Having 1 great mentor is enough to foster a great academic career. Certainly, if you have 10 mentors to choose from it would be easier than competing for 2 or 3 mentors.

Just my 2 cents!
 
Neurology is a vast science that you need to master in 3 years of 80 hrs/wk. Become the best clinician that you can be. That is the role of a great Neurology residency. If you are interested in an academic career or in doing research, you might want to get a taste of what research is about; use 2-3 months of elective time on doing research, and if you like research, then plan for your fellowship. If you know that you want to do research, then just do it during your fellowship primarily.

Once you become a faculty member, 10-15 years down the line, the critical questions would not be: Where did you go to med school?, or Where did you train for residency or fellowship?, or even Where you are a faculty member? The critical 2 questions are:
What have you published?
What are your contributions to the field?
That is what makes you important.

Having 10 great scientists in the Department of Neurology hidiing in the lab, does not help you at all, unless you work with 1 of them during electives or during your fellowship. Having 1 great mentor is enough to foster a great academic career. Certainly, if you have 10 mentors to choose from it would be easier than competing for 2 or 3 mentors.

Just my 2 cents!

Thanks for the reply. I completely agree with what you wrote, however I started for the thread to hear what people on the interview/elective tours thought of certain programs that don't get much press on here since I always seem to hear the same 5-10 programs being mentioned. It would just be nice to hear what people thought of some other "less mentioned" places.
 
I'm at Penn State, it is definitely always overlooked on the "top" whatever lists ... having been on the trail, I will tell you honestly, I really disagreed with the "top" lists when it was all said and done -- which just illustrates that you really need to focus on the your personal goals and preferences, and your gut feeling on interviews, and for goodness sake, let go of the notion of a "top" school (I know, we're all Type A, but trust me on this one).
Anyway, since you asked ... Penn State is without a doubt it "up and coming." It has faculty with training from just about everywhere (Wake Forest, Cleveland, Michigan, Brigham & Womens, NYU, Rochester, Yale, Maryland a few of our own from Penn State .... and lots more) who are all accessible, and still hiring ...
Good luck choosing ... I reccommend paying the extra few dollars to apply to a few extra schools, then narrowing down the choices AFTER you have some interviews in your pocket.
 
I'm at Penn State, it is definitely always overlooked on the "top" whatever lists ... having been on the trail, I will tell you honestly, I really disagreed with the "top" lists when it was all said and done -- which just illustrates that you really need to focus on the your personal goals and preferences, and your gut feeling on interviews, and for goodness sake, let go of the notion of a "top" school (I know, we're all Type A, but trust me on this one).
Anyway, since you asked ... Penn State is without a doubt it "up and coming." It has faculty with training from just about everywhere (Wake Forest, Cleveland, Michigan, Brigham & Womens, NYU, Rochester, Yale, Maryland a few of our own from Penn State .... and lots more) who are all accessible, and still hiring ...
Good luck choosing ... I reccommend paying the extra few dollars to apply to a few extra schools, then narrowing down the choices AFTER you have some interviews in your pocket.

Thanks for the post Neurologee. I was wondering if you could describe the program a little bit more? What is it that you really like about the program? What is unique about the way Penn State approaches teaching neurology vs. some of the other places you interviewed at? One thing that concerns me about Penn State is that its location might not be conducive to seeing a broad and varied patient population. I might be wrong. I have looked at their website in the past and it is lacking in information about the program.
 
Penn State is solid. It's really just whether or not you mind the location. If you're married or in a serious relationship, it should be fine. If you're looking to graze, go elsewhere!
 
Penn State is solid. It's really just whether or not you mind the location. If you're married or in a serious relationship, it should be fine. If you're looking to graze, go elsewhere!

What is it that you liked about the program?
 
I have heard UNC's program being mentioned quite a bit as a very strong underrated program that keeps getting better.
 
OK, about Penn State:

1. GREAT case variety - takes in everything in between Philly and Pittsburgh (check that out on a map), up to lower New York and down to northern Maryland (some patients would rather go to Hershey than Baltimore - they tell me it's nicer to be in a less urban environment - I guess some folks choose their hospital like a hotel/spa - go figure). The hospital also has the privilege to care for many individuals in the Amish/Mennonite/Brethren communities, and they often have very unique medical problems. Bottm line, great variety.
I found that many hospitals in a city setting tend to subdivide neurology, with one center being an expert in a particular area and getting all those cases, such that few of them ever have the full variety ... something to think about. Honestly, I was most intrigued by the case variety at the more rural academic centers ... I will say that Penn State does not have much HIV-related Neurology...

2. Great depth and variety amongst the attendings, and still growing ... Many of the specifics are on the website, but there are also at least three new faculty not up there yet, too!! All faculty are approachable and down-to-earth ...

3. No Scut. We cover our hospital. That's it. We go to the VA hospital for some outpatient electives, and this VA is well-regarded (I have heard some horror stories at other institutions). We have a consult service, a stroke service, and a general service. There is a night float system (none of this q4 call craziness in PGY II year that I hear about elsewhere). The Neuro ICU, IMC, and Epilepsy monitoring unit are less than two years old, and are state-of-the art. And we get along & work well with our Neurosurgeons - they are nice folks (honest - I know, hard to believe - come check it out if you don't believe it).

4. About the singles scene - I honestly can't give a good assessment, cause I have a significant other... I am friends with plenty of singles, though, and they sure seem to get out and about a lot, dating around ... but no question this is not the same setting as DC or LA or NYC ... I do know that for outdoorsy folks & folks with kids (or planning on a kiddo), Penn State is as good as it gets.

AHillock, if you have any other questions, send me an email ...
 
I have heard UNC's program being mentioned quite a bit as a very strong underrated program that keeps getting better.

Are there any residents from the UNC program? Or anyone else that has experience or comments on the program. I have heard a few people mention that this is a solid program and I would like to hear their reasoning behind it. 👍
 
I have heard UNC's program being mentioned quite a bit as a very strong underrated program that keeps getting better.

i was very impressed with their neuroscience research when i seen them in action at a conference
 
Consider the following programs. To my knowledge, they are all hidden gems

Kansas University
University of Kentucky
University of Cincinnati
UNC Chapel Hill
U Tex HSC San Antonio (in transition right now but still good)
 
I liked UNC a lot when I interviewed there last year. It struck me as a positive environment where residents were treated well, with representation of a lot of different subspecialties. It's a really nice area to live in, too.
 
Check out Indiana University/Clarian in Indianapolis
 
Is anyone here a resident at MCW? Anyone know anything about the program???
 
Is anyone here a resident at MCW? Anyone know anything about the program???
I also got an IV from there. It will be great if someone has first hand info. about them. Thank you!
 
Bump for any other thoughts? Maybe after interview season people will have a better idea?
 
Anyone have a suggestion for top 5 Neuro programs in the Southeast?
 
Duke, Emory, Miami, Vanderbilt, UAB, maybe Kentucky


Neurologist, any reason you didn't include UNC in that list?

On another note, what is the true story on Duke neuro? I just met a neurologist who is currently Duke last week at a conference. He is no longer on faculty in the division of neurology, instead he is currently a director of one of the Duke institutes. After hearing that I was a medical student interested in neurology I asked him about the Duke program. He told me flat out that he would not recommend it at all and pointed me to some other programs that would be better for my training (i.e. UCSF, Hopkins, Partners, UPenn, WashU). I understand that this is just his viewpoint and is anecdotal evidence. However for him to make such a claim is quite interesting to me since it has been echoed on here in the past.
 
Neurologist, any reason you didn't include UNC in that list?

On another note, what is the true story on Duke neuro? I just met a neurologist who is currently Duke last week at a conference. He is no longer on faculty in the division of neurology, instead he is currently a director of one of the Duke institutes. After hearing that I was a medical student interested in neurology I asked him about the Duke program. He told me flat out that he would not recommend it at all and pointed me to some other programs that would be better for my training (i.e. UCSF, Hopkins, Partners, UPenn, WashU). I understand that this is just his viewpoint and is anecdotal evidence. However for him to make such a claim is quite interesting to me since it has been echoed on here in the past.

Duke neuro has really suffered in the past by not being it's own department, but instead a division of Duke internal medicine. Coupled with the crazy malignant internal medicine culture down there, both medicine and neuro have reportedly had trouble filling multiple times within the last decade. Given that the research triangle is a great area to live in, that is concerning.

That being said, I've heard that neuro is their own department now and is working really hard to try and dispel the notion that Duke mistreats its residents.

I'd be interested in input from others that interviewed there. Just based on paper and word of mouth I would put the department somewhere in the middle, and not within the "top" 10-15 training programs. Certainly not a bad place to train, but not as "top tier" as other parts of the university.
 
One more thing in regards to this thread.

A couple programs that I felt were up and coming when I visited during the interview season:

-UT Southwestern: Great program director, huge catchment area, good didactics. Big time basic science research for those looking to stay at the same University long term.

-Mayo: Tons of funding for residents, good didactics, clinical research opportunities during residency and impressive commitment to continuously improving their program. Must be willing to tolerate insane cold for 3+ months/year.
 
Duke neuro has really suffered in the past by not being it's own department, but instead a division of Duke internal medicine. Coupled with the crazy malignant internal medicine culture down there, both medicine and neuro have reportedly had trouble filling multiple times within the last decade. Given that the research triangle is a great area to live in, that is concerning.

I know this is a neurology thread, but I can't let these comments slide without a reply, as they're incredibly unfair and misleading. As a Duke medicine resident, I take issue with the assertion that there's a "crazy malignant internal medicine culture" here. This is an unfortunate claim that for some reason is perpetuated on these message boards without substantiating evidence, and is entirely contrary to the experience of myself and my colleages here, and really not based in any current reality about Duke. I've suspected for some time now that this sentiment is based on how things used to be, about 10 years ago, when things indeed were rather hardcore and unfriendly here in many ways. Quite a bit has changed since then. If you're interested in hearing more about the reasons why this rumor isn't true, look at my prior posts and you'll see that I've written quite a bit about it, with lots of substantiating evidence and experience rather than hearsay as is too often the case.

It's also not true that medicine and neuro have "failed to fill multiple times in the last decade," as is asserted above. Medicine and neuro didn't fill just once, last year, and based on the research that was done by our department it was not for the reasons that you're implying. Indeed, it was followed up by the most incredibly successful match Duke has had in at least a decade, in March 2009, including neurology. And last year's match result helped bolster adminisrative and financial support of our programs, such that we've been able to restructure some areas to further enhance resident quality of life and the overall educational experience.

I too have heard people say that the clinical training in neurology is much better elsewhere as compared to Duke (although it's still more of a top program nonetheless), but I've yet to hear anything legitimate said that substantiates this assertion. I'm not a neurology resident but I know at least half of them, and I can guarantee you that they're incredibly well-trained, smart, insightful people. As compared to a place where lots of ivory tower people are doing big money research but ignoring patients and residents, our most famous and fantastic neurologists are actually rounding quite regularly at Duke, including people like Dr. Larry Goldstein, the world-renowned stroke expert. The neurology faculty at Duke are actually some of my favorite people here...it's a really great bunch of smart, personable, and good-natured individuals who enjoy working with the housestaff. They're great teachers too. And regarding the other point raised in the above post, honestly I'm not sure that the structure of the department has any impact whatsoever on residency training, but it is indeed true that neurology has historically been a division of internal medicine rather than a separate department.

It's really a phenomenal program housed within a fantastic institution, and if you let rumors and hearsay dictate your willingness to give it a chance then you're really doing yourself a disservice. Come check it out, and like many other Duke people, you may love it so much that you never leave!
 
Good to hear that things are going well down at Duke.

Reputations take a long time to build, and an even longer time to dispel. It may take awhile for ideas about Duke to change.

As I am not a resident at Duke, all I can go off of is word of mouth from other applicants that I know that interviewed down there. I have heard that both medicine and neuro have not filled in the recent past. The reasons why and how many times I don't know.

I generally try and refrain from saying negative things about a program because it's hard to know exactly what is going on without being there.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.
 
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I too have heard some negative remarks about DUKE neuro from current residents at other programs. As for the medicine department, my good buddy interviewed there and loved it. He was contacted by the program post-interview and encouraged to rank DUKE number one and he was sure to match there. Well he didn't and he was pretty upset. I don't know if this kind of underhanded recruiting occurs much at residency programs, but it sure left a sour taste in my mouth. I still am reluctant to judge any program before I go there myself and see what I think and feel! I'm sure that DUKE is a great program and I applaud those who are standing up to comment on the unfortunate reputation that has developed on these message boards. I have always had a negative opinion about DUKE, but that all revolved around an orange ball and not the academic institution itself.... GO TARHEELS!!!
 
It's upsetting to hear about what happened to your friend. Some programs tell more applicants that they're "ranked to match" than the actual number of spots they have to fill, so if a program is being unscrupulous in this manner then what happened to your friend is inevitable. But Duke does NOT do this, so I'm betting there was some sort of misunderstanding. Duke has historically been very tight-lipped about applicants chances of matching, which was a source of negative feedback in past years, so the program was reportedly a bit more vocal about recruiting this past match cycle. This can lead to misunderstandings, which is probably why they were always so tight-lipped in prior years. But I know they were cognizant of this potential problem, because I specifcally overheard some of the higher-ups emphasizing the importance of only telling a small number of applicants that they were "ranked to match," to avoid this very issue. This makes me wonder if perhaps your friend misinterpreted something that was said or implied, which is actually quite common in the match process. That's why the NRMP tells applicants not to put any weight on what's said or implied by programs or interviewers, because there's a long history of applicants thinking they were told something that they really weren't, or programs miscommunicating their enthusiasm in a way that makes it seem like a match is a sure thing when it's not. For example, saying something like, "we'd love to have you here" doesn't mean an applicant is actually "ranked to match," yet many of us might take it as such, especially in the heat of the moment when we're visiting a program and are excited about the prospect of matching there.

Still, it's very disappointing that your friend feels duped, regardless of the cause. This certainly isn't reflective of how Duke IM operates, so I wouldn't read into it as anything other than an unfortunate misunderstanding. It's still an indescribably awesome program, and an incredible place to train.
 
I am afraid that Duke's bad reputation is not due to the postings on these boards, but rather to facts. A program that is attractive and competitive for whichever reasons, does not have a problem filling all positions thru the match. Duke has consistently had problems matching, and to the dismay of many, only last year it had two unfilled positions ( btw, it was the only program in the country with more than one position unfilled!!) The fact that Neurology is just a division of Internal Medicine does not help either.

Duke's Neurology needs to take a closer look at what their problem is. And just because a department has some top faculty, it does not mean that the residency training has to be great.
 
I don't know much about the history of the neuro program's matches...I was mostly talking about the medicine program match, because it was insinuated that medicine didn't fill multiple times in recent years, which is absolutely not true. But last year was the only year I've heard about in terms of Duke neuro not filling in the last 10 yrs or so. Is that not true? If you have some more concrete data then please feel free to share. I was mostly talking about the medicine program with regards to my other comments as well, as it was called "malignant" in this thread, which I take great issue with, and stand by my many posts and points about this. I gather that you're talking just about neurology though BrainBuff, which again I know much less about. I won't comment further about it, other than that I've been very impressed with the great majority of the residents and faculty, and feel that they're very well-trained at least based on my interactions with them. There are countless reasons why a program might not fill, and many of them actually have little to do with the quality of a program and perceptions thereof, although certainly that can be a factor in some cases too. And while I agree that great faculty does not equal great program, it's very difficult to have a great program WITHOUT great faculty, so it's certainly a very important part of the puzzle. So is a great medical center and diverse patient peopulation. And Duke neuro has both of these for sure, regardless of whatever else you think about it. It's certainly a great place to train...may not be the best program in every way, but it's not one to just dismiss lightly either.
 
I am a Duke Neurology graduate. Several of my residents and friends remain on staff. Every other year, I meet several of the faculty, but also current residents and fellows during professional meetings. I have not seen a drop in quality. I also have lectured and taught professor rounds at about half of the top 20 Neurology programs. I do not see much of a difference in quality. I do not know whether the culture at Duke has changed over the past 10-15 years, but I doubt it. Before the 80 hour week, Duke was a place where you learn by doing. During my PGY2, I saw an increadibly amount of neurology (i.e.: 15-20 consults/day) with call every 3rd night (except 2 months in ICU - qod). Perhaps, 100-110 hrs/wk in PGY2. However, PGY3 and 4 had less hours. With the 80 hr week, the program became more resident friendly. During the 4 yrs that I was there, I never saw any "malignant" neurology faculty. The program had great variety of patient population with great academic physicians as teachers.

At the time that I was a resident there, Duke Neurology matched the four positions with their top 6-7 residents in their match. Things might be bad this past year, but it is not a tradition of not matching. The perception that being a Division hurts Neurology is not true at the level of residents. It might be an issue at the faculty level but not residency. Keep in mind that Neurobiology is a department with its own building, which was funded for Alzhemeirs' Disease. Most of the Duke Neurology clinician scientists had their offices there.

Let's be very honest. You learn Neurology from the patients and the books. The Neurology faculty (we) are just enablers. Some people might shy away from a program because it is hard work. Other programs are too demaning. Often, they are the same people I hear at meetings complaining that Neurology does not give as much money as it did before. The biggest difference regarding how good can you become as a Neurologist is not dependant upon the residency where you trained, but how much effort you put into learning the Science and Art of Neurology.
 
Prior to interviewing at Duke this year, i had read all of the comments i could find about the program on SDN (many good, many bad). I went into the interview day (and interesting case conference, resident dinner the night before) thinking of the issues raised in the posts - malignant atmosphere, unhappy residents, Neurology not its own department, 2 unmatched spots in 2008.
I encountered friendly, happy residents, who were satisfied with their workload and felt well cared for by the PD and the faculty. ICC (interesting case conference) was presented by a PGY-2 and the faculty in attendance used gaps in history/physical exam/differential as teaching points, rather than grilling the resident about mistakes made. The program itself seemed well designed and had a unique feature (at least from my exposure) of having senior residents be on call with PGY-2 residents during their first 3 months, showing them the ropes and mentoring them.
The Program Director (Morgenlander) seemed extremely involved and in-tune with how the residents felt about the program. He was the first chair of the Consortium of Neurology Program Directors through the American Academy of Neurology, ran the first Neurology Program Directors Boot Camp through the Association of University Professors of Neurology, and is thought of highly by my home institution's PD and Chair.
In terms of where Duke Neurology ranks among programs, i think it depends on what you are looking for. IMHO it is not a Partners, Hopkins, UCSF tier program in terms of "elite reputation" or research opportunities, but this not the niche that they are trying to fill. Duke seems like an excellent, small, clinically driven program where residents are well cared for and mentored by dedicated faculty. The resources available at the medical center are top notch, and i viewed the close relationship with Medicine as a plus, not a minus. The fact that Neurology has been a division of medicine (which we were told was to change this year) may be seen as a negative, but like Fencer stated, it likely impacts attendings rather than residents.
My impression of Duke was strong enough for me to bypass the negative rumors surrounding it on this message board, and rank them first for the match. I will be starting my prelim year there this June, and who knows, maybe everyone there was able to dupe me into thinking the program is something that it is not. I guess I will find out. I will do my best over the next 4 years to try to dispel or justify the things that have been said on SDN about Duke Neuro.
BrainBuff, i would be interested to know what other factors besides match results and department status you dislike about the program.
One more thought on the match - could the two unfilled spots last year just be from gross overconfidence on Duke's part, rather than people not liking the program? It seems to me that maybe they misjudged how many applicants they needed to rank and got burned by it.
 
I liked Duke on my interview. The 4th year residents were very likeable and did not seem overworked.

A couple of minor negatives I remember: 1. Faculty seemed a little in-bred. What program isn't? But with a smaller faculty it was more noticeable. 2. Required 6 mo (I think) of EEG/EMG time during residency. Takes a big chunk out of 3rd year and I like to pick my own options. 3. Wasn't a huge fan of Durham. 4. Campus felt TOO small. I'm usually a proponent of close interactions between departments and things being close but the hospital was smaller than I expected (for a name like Duke) and was a little suffocating.

On the other hand, Duke's program and environment has a distinct college/intellectual feel and I was able to visit the engineering building which is a short walk away from the hospital. The campus is beautiful and the research opportunities are great.
 
Best southeast programs, in my opinion, not necessarily in order:

Vanderbilt
UK (Kentucky)
Miami
UNC (up and coming)
UAB
 
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