Updating LizzyM Spreadsheet Data with current MSAR?

[AlbertVOligh]

Hey everyone, I was wondering if anyone else knew if the LizzyM spreadsheet that has been around the forums in the past is still usable today? I looked at the most recent MSAR and the median values for some schools seemed to have jumped as high as 0.2 GPA points and the MCAT scores like 2 points. I feel like some school that it would tell me "Go For It" based on old data would not necessarily be the case given the current data. Does anyone know if the sheet is still usable if I go thru every school and update the median values according to the most recent MSAR? Thanks!

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[NickNaylor]

The problem is that since the MSAR contains copyrighted data, it can't be used for this purpose as was done in the past. I don't think anyone would actually care, but the mods will take down any copies they find.

 

[Amba]

Just do it yourself. I have online msar access and made an updated sheet (with additional columns) for my own personal use.

But NickNaylor is right, I can't post it here.

 

[NickNaylor]

Just do it yourself. I have online msar access and made an updated sheet (with additional columns) for my own personal use.

But NickNaylor is right, I can't post it here.

Might I suggest that the OP "talk to you" and see what you did? 😉

(sent from my phone - please forgive typos and brevity)

 

[intel21]

What should I enter as my state if I'm a Canadian applicant? I would assume it'd be something that would give me OOS status everywhere?

 

[Amba]

Might I suggest that the OP "talk to you" and see what you did?

Definitely a good idea 😉

 

[dadaism]

The problem is that since the MSAR contains copyrighted data, it can't be used for this purpose as was done in the past. I don't think anyone would actually care, but the mods will take down any copies they find.

I'm not a lawyer but that sentiment has always bothered me. How can you copyright raw data? So I read up on it a little bit and it seems the US Supreme Court agrees that you cannot copyright raw data. There has to be an element of creativity and originality to the work in order for it to be protected under copyright. These case laws cite examples of extracting court case or phonebook data which is not protected. But they purposefully also don't say what should be protected. Obviously I understand that SDN doesn't want a legal battle with the AAMC to test the validity of their claims, just offering food for thought.

 

[phltz]

The problem is that since the MSAR contains copyrighted data, it can't be used for this purpose as was done in the past. I don't think anyone would actually care, but the mods will take down any copies they find.

Copyright only applies to work with creative content. Mere data and lists of numbers are not covered by copyright law, as the Supreme Court has consistently found. The AAMC has no valid legal grounds to come after anyone who copies the MCAT/GPA data from the MSAR.

 

[sector9]

I'm not a lawyer but that sentiment has always bothered me. How can you copyright raw data? So I read up on it a little bit and it seems the US Supreme Court agrees that you cannot copyright raw data. There has to be an element of creativity and originality to the work in order for it to be protected under copyright. These case laws cite examples of extracting court case or phonebook data which is not protected. But they purposefully also don't say what should be protected. Obviously I understand that SDN doesn't want a legal battle with the AAMC to test the validity of their claims, just offering food for thought.

Copyright only applies to work with creative content. Mere data and lists of numbers are not covered by copyright law, as the Supreme Court has consistently found. The AAMC has no valid legal grounds to come after anyone who copies the MCAT/GPA data from the MSAR.

The AAMC has already approached SDN about the spreadsheet. As much as we like to be internet forum lawyers, SDN doesn't allow the spreadsheet.

Lee's post about the matter when the spreadsheet was taken down

The AAMC's attorneys have requested that this document be removed as they feel it violates their copyright.

 

[circulus vitios]

AAMC cries so hard when people try to upset their racket.

 

[Sephiroth]

AAMC cries so hard when people try to upset their racket.

yeah, I don't like how they charge for information for med school applications when they (unlike a third party like kaplan or princeton review) are the ones also running it. As I mentioned in another thread, I especially take issue with them charging for their old MCATs as this can unfairly disadvantage people who couldn't afford them.

 

[Narmerguy]

Copyright only applies to work with creative content. Mere data and lists of numbers are not covered by copyright law, as the Supreme Court has consistently found. The AAMC has no valid legal grounds to come after anyone who copies the MCAT/GPA data from the MSAR.

You're legally probably right. It's a topic that has risen often. I think it comes down to whether we really want to try to get into an expensive legal war with AAMC to prove it just so users can toss around some excel spreadsheet when it can be created almost as easily without any legal hassle using public data.

Let's just let this topic die. It's not something that's going to change.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

yeah, I don't like how they charge for information for med school applications when they (unlike a third party like kaplan or princeton review) are the ones also running it. As I mentioned in another thread, I especially take issue with them charging for their old MCATs as this can unfairly disadvantage people who couldn't afford them.

Let's face it, the current system in general gives wealthier applicants a significant advantage and poor applicants a significant disadvantage. There's a reason why med schools have such a disproportionate amount of students from high income families, and it's not because only high income students want to be doctors.

And like you, I take big issue with the fact that AAMC is both administering a test and profiting from it at the same time. It's one thing to price gouge with their test, but it's another when they also sell important information like the MCAT guide, practice tests, and the MSAR. One of my friends insists that AAMC makes their practice tests intentionally easier so that people will be encouraged to take a test they're not prepared for as well as they think they are, thus ensuring that a lot of people will have to retake. While it seems a bit conspiratorial, it's not something I would put past an organization that seems to be increasingly for-profit.

 

[PhysMatMan]

Well, what is the LizzyM spreadsheet, and how could I make it?

 

[KLycos]

the LizzyM spreadsheet was so helpful when i applied to med schools last year o___o

 

[ccrone]

I'm not a lawyer but that sentiment has always bothered me. How can you copyright raw data? So I read up on it a little bit and it seems the US Supreme Court agrees that you cannot copyright raw data. There has to be an element of creativity and originality to the work in order for it to be protected under copyright. These case laws cite examples of extracting court case or phonebook data which is not protected. But they purposefully also don't say what should be protected. Obviously I understand that SDN doesn't want a legal battle with the AAMC to test the validity of their claims, just offering food for thought.

You are absolutely correct, but all the AAMC has to do is submit a DMCA take down notice. In order to be protected from legal action, the website has no choice but to immediately remove the offending content. Yes, SDN could refuse, and AAMC would likely fold like a cheap suit. But retaining representation and putting up a fight costs tons of money (as in, in the tens of thousands of dollars just to have an attorney review the facts, merits, and draft a letter).

If you truly feel passionate about it, start a change.org petition. Don't knock it--that stuff actually works. 😉

As for the LizzyM spreadsheet...it's still floating around the forums. There are copies in long-lost threads that haven't been deleted/removed. I downloaded a copy of the spreadsheet, purchased the MSAR, and updated the spreadsheet to reflect new data for the schools that interest me. I also added columns for the MCAT 10th and 90th percentiles (so I wouldn't have to keep flipping back and forth for the info).

 

[altitude]

You are absolutely correct, but all the AAMC has to do is submit a DMCA take down notice. In order to be protected from legal action, the website has no choice but to immediately remove the offending content. Yes, SDN could refuse, and AAMC would likely fold like a cheap suit. But retaining representation and putting up a fight costs tons of money (as in, in the tens of thousands of dollars just to have an attorney review the facts, merits, and draft a letter).

If you truly feel passionate about it, start a change.org petition. Don't knock it--that stuff actually works. 😉

As for the LizzyM spreadsheet...it's still floating around the forums. There are copies in long-lost threads that haven't been deleted/removed. I downloaded a copy of the spreadsheet, purchased the MSAR, and updated the spreadsheet to reflect new data for the schools that interest me. I also added columns for the MCAT 10th and 90th percentiles (so I wouldn't have to keep flipping back and forth for the info).

To update it, do you just need to enter in the updated GPAs or do you need to start playing with the formulas?

 

[KLycos]

I propose someone create a spreadsheet with no infringing data but only formulas, and then allow people to collude in such a way as to make the spreadsheet easy to spread.

 

[NickNaylor]

I propose someone create a spreadsheet with no infringing data but only formulas, and then allow people to collude in such a way as to make the spreadsheet easy to spread.

...you know this was done, right?

 

[09ine]

So is it "illegal" for one of us to create a good copy and send to someone via PM or will we get the banhammer?

 

[gettheleadout]

I propose someone create a spreadsheet with no infringing data but only formulas, and then allow people to collude in such a way as to make the spreadsheet easy to spread.

...you know this was done, right?

I think Lycos was being sarcastic 😉 but if not, straight from my sig:

SDN Free Matriculant Data & Discussion Thread

So is it "illegal" for one of us to create a good copy and send to someone via PM or will we get the banhammer?

Distribution or solicitation of the spreadsheet and any other copyrighted materials on SDN is prohibited.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think Lycos was being sarcastic 😉

Haha I figured as much, just wanted to make sure.

 

[Ironmandoc]

Choose Alaska or Montana...then you are OOS everywhere lol

 

[Owlie]

To update it, do you just need to enter in the updated GPAs or do you need to start playing with the formulas?

No one ever answered this ^

 

[darkjedi]

No one ever answered this ^

The only real "formula" is the calculation of the LizzyM score, which is simple your (or the school's median) (GPAx10)+MCAT. If you bought the MSAR you can tediously input all the updated GPA and MCAT stats for the schools you are interested in to see how you stack up.

The indicators for things like "Safety" and "Reach" are much more subjective, but usually based around standard deviations. I imagine those should be programmed in already as well and you don't need to futz with them.

 

[Owlie]

The only real "formula" is the calculation of the LizzyM score, which is simple your (or the school's median) (GPAx10)+MCAT. If you bought the MSAR you can tediously input all the updated GPA and MCAT stats for the schools you are interested in to see how you stack up.

The indicators for things like "Safety" and "Reach" are much more subjective, but usually based around standard deviations. I imagine those should be programmed in already as well and you don't need to futz with them.

Thank you

 

[DAPI]

The easier way to do it is buy US News. They present the data in such a way you can just highlight it, then copy and paste it into a spread sheet and then use that data. I know they use matriculated data instead of accepted and do not have all the schools, but still, if you're looking for an easy out, that's the way to do it.

My personal spread sheet uses US News and MSAR data (along with other info I wanted from certain schools), but I did it in Numbers so when you export it to Excel there are some serious issues due to all the convoluted things I did in my free time.

Here are just a few schools for everything I did:

 

[LizzyM]

Please do not distribute copyrighted information. The MSAR and US News is copyrighted and all of us are prohibited from redistributing it in any form, including electronically (as in a spread sheet). The work-around to this legal restriction was for good-hearted people to painstakingly look up and record information from each school's web site.

 

[Owlie]

I don't intend to distribute anything. I just want to know if I can just update the information myself from the MSAR I paid for.

 

[Praefectus]

Thank you

An owl for Owlie? Woah.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't intend to distribute anything. I just want to know if I can just update the information myself from the MSAR I paid for.

Read the terms you agreed to when you purchased the product.