UPenn vs UMDNJ

[rumrunner19]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hi! i've been following for a weeks and decided to sign up.

I got into UMDNJ-Newark and UPenn and am looking for advice on which one to go to. I got a 25Q on my MCAT (terrible I know, im repeating soon) and had a 3.42 UG GPA and a 3.27 Science GPA. I finished school and went to the pharmaceutical industry and am now planning on heading back to MS.

Any thoughts on which would be the better program? Thanks a lot and I appreciate any advice! Let me know if I can clarify or provide more info

 

[hwpo]

I am faced with a similar situation with UPenn vs a SMP (not UMDNJ but BU MAMS):


I can tell you what I think are the advantages of doing UPenn if that helps but I can't give input on UMDNJ. I assuming you are talking about the special science program??


UPenn

Performing poorly is not the last resort like a SMP tends to be
Committee letter and good advisors
High Success rate - 65-75% get into medical school after glide year
Accelerated linkage for highly qualified at RWJSM
If do not link there are great research (paid) opportunities
Cost is relatively inexpensive
Ivy league school

 

[NutCracker2021]

Did you get accepted to the Special Sciences program @ UPenn?? Or is it some other type of program??

 

[rumrunner19]

Yah It's the Special Sciences Program (SSP).

And what are you think HWPO?

I am leaning towards UPenn cos of the name, and the linkage to RWJMS. But UMDNJ does allow Med School classes

 

[hwpo]

Huh?

I got into the special science program as well if that is what u r asking.

 

[NutCracker2021]

yeah the linkage program at UPenn is definitely a plus..but i always thought that graduate classes would look better than undergraduate classes...i looked the catalog and saw that it was a lot of upper level classes..but so that I can apply more broadly..I would rather do an SMP.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think the easiest way to make this decision is where you stand in the scheme of things.

I think if you have ~3.5 and lower or no MCAT, Penn SSP + retake makes much more sense than a SMP. If you're more like 3.2 with ~30 or no MCAT, SMP makes much more sense.

 

[hwpo]

I think the easiest way to make this decision is where you stand in the scheme of things.

I think if you have ~3.5 and lower or no MCAT, Penn SSP + retake makes much more sense than a SMP. If you're more like 3.2 with ~30 or no MCAT, SMP makes much more sense.

This is not entirely true however because the linkage to RWJSM requires a 3.2 undergrad overall GPA and a 3.6 SSP GPA. Also and I have heard of people entering with a 3.1, achieving a 3.9 in the program to make an overall 3.3 (science and overall) with a 32-35 MCAT and receive many interview and acceptances. The name goes a far away.

 

[rumrunner19]

I've been leaning towards SSP recently. My MCAT practice tests (i know they are just practice are 4-5pts higher this yr than last) so i feel confident my MCAT will definitely go up.
Doing the math if I get a 3.7 throughout UPenn I finish with a UG GPA of 3.5 and Science of 3.42. That still puts me a little low tho right?

That's the reason i'm thinking SMP but the UPenn link and name might help push that 3.5 a little futher than it might ordinarily go

 

[hwpo]

You should focus more on doing well in the SSP than what your overall and science gpa will be after the program. Your gpa is above average already of students entering the program. Doing great in the program, getting a good MCAT score, and having a GPA with upward trend in 3.3+ you should be fine. With the 3.5 you speak of I don't see any trouble.


Drizz,

Also you just recommended the UPenn SSP to someone with a 3.2 overall and 2.65 science GPA in the "UPenn Post Bacc Program" thread. Which is it now?

 

[drizzt3117]

You should focus more on doing well in the SSP than what your overall and science gpa will be after the program. Your gpa is above average already of students entering the program. Doing great in the program, getting a good MCAT score, and having a GPA with upward trend in 3.3+ you should be fine. With the 3.5 you speak of I don't see any trouble.

That just isn't true. People compare you to other applicants based on your cGPA and MCAT. Good postbac performance will help but if you aren't competitive, you aren't competitive. All you are hearing is the success stories, not the 60% of people who don't get in.

Drizz,

Also you just recommended the UPenn SSP to someone with a 3.2 overall and 2.65 science GPA in the "UPenn Post Bacc Program" thread. Which is it now?

I recommended the program to someone instead of taking a la carte classes at their state school, not instead of a SMP. Then again, what do I know, I'm just someone who happens to have done a postbac and gotten into med school <shrug>

 

[rumrunner19]

So drizzt your advice seems to recommend i do the SSP over the SMP - is that a fair summary

 

[drizzt3117]

So drizzt your advice seems to recommend i do the SSP over the SMP - is that a fair summary

I'd tend to think so, but it depends on a few factors. What were your practice test scores before you took the MCAT the last time? Getting a 30 on the MCAT isn't going to help you too much especially since you retook. You need a 32 or higher really plus raising your GPA to 3.5+ with SSP. Doing those two things will make you close to the average for a matriculating student. You might also do better on the MCAT after taking classes at SSP, so that is a factor as well, although you're going to want to take it as early as possible in the spring (april would be ideal)

 

[rumrunner19]

I am returning to school after a few years off so last year my avg practice scores was a 26. This time its a 30 and i'm taking the test again in 2 weeks.

 

[drizzt3117]

I am returning to school after a few years off so last year my avg practice scores was a 26. This time its a 30 and i'm taking the test again in 2 weeks.

what's the breakdown of that 30?

 

[rumrunner19]

So the 30 was an average of my 5 tests so far using my spreadsheet.
Last two tests were;
Today - 9P, 11V, 11B
Past Wed - 11P, 10V, 13B

 

[drizzt3117]

So the 30 was an average of my 5 tests so far using my spreadsheet.
Last two tests were;
Today - 9P, 11V, 11B
Past Wed - 11P, 10V, 13B

Hmm... that's a reasonably big range... what do you think your weaknesses are on the MCAT sections? (esp bio/phys)

 

[rumrunner19]

I'm more worried about my PhySci - thats where my greatest fluctuation occurs. I was 1Q away from a 10 which is frustrating.

BioSci I am ok on - I got the same # of Qs right today as I did on Wed but obv the curve changes everything

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm more worried about my PhySci - thats where my greatest fluctuation occurs. I was 1Q away from a 10 which is frustrating.

BioSci I am ok on - I got the same # of Qs right today as I did on Wed but obv the curve changes everything

What part of PS is hard for you, gchem or phys?

 

[hwpo]

That just isn't true. People compare you to other applicants based on your cGPA and MCAT. Good postbac performance will help but if you aren't competitive, you aren't competitive. All you are hearing is the success stories, not the 60% of people who don't get in.



I recommended the program to someone instead of taking a la carte classes at their state school, not instead of a SMP. Then again, what do I know, I'm just someone who happens to have done a postbac and gotten into med school <shrug>

First off I don't know where you get your numbers from. About 25-35% do not get into medical school at UPenn SSP (from the directors mouth).....NOT 60%.

So you did a post-bacc not an SMP and recommend a SMP if you have a 3.2 or less or if you can't get your GPA up to a 3.5 after the program?


What post-bacc did you do and what was your GPA coming in and out of the program and MCAT?



You state also that not everyone posts on SDN and that there are a lot more successes than are posted on here. From the 5 or so successes I have heard on SDN, 2 of them got 7+ interviews and acceptances with around a 3.35 overall and science gpa and 3.8+ in the program. So you should consider stop contradicting yourself or make yourself clearer. You are seriously downplaying the impact of a high upward trend from the SSP and including previous undergrad. We are talking about a top 10-15 school in the WORLD that people are getting the chance to prove their academic abilities at. This is not a local college post-bacc. If that were the case everyone would just take classes at their local state university instead of going to UPenn. What would you be more impressed with a 1 year post-bacc at 3.8 from UPenn or from a state university (nothing against state universities either). I believe you would agree that UPenn would win here, however, you do not think that the UPenn SSP equals a SMP say if you have multiple science credits with previous upward trend and complete the SMP at a 3.8-9+ and improving your gpa to 3.4 for overall and 3.35 science? The people who have done this are not just getting 1 interview and acceptance, but multiple ones including high quality medical schools. On top of all this, accelerated acceptance can be granted to RWJSM without a glide year if you meet the 3.6 SSP GPA and 3.2 undergrad. I honestly don't think you are thinking this through. You should instead state that a SMP and UPenn SSP have equal strengths and opportunities to get one into medical school, for those coming in with a 3.1 to 3.3. Remember also that UPenn will only admit you to the SSP program if they believe you have a greater than 50% chance of success.

 

[drizzt3117]

First off I don't know where you get your numbers from. About 25-35% do not get into medical school at UPenn SSP (from the directors mouth).....NOT 60%.

60% of ALL applicants don't get into med school. That pool also has an average GPA of 3.5 and MCAT of 29. Of ppl with those numbers, 60% don't get in. The numbers you should be looking at is 3.65/32, which are the average #so for accepted applicants.

So you did a post-bacc not an SMP and recommend a SMP if you have a 3.2 or less or if you can't get your GPA up to a 3.5 after the program?


What post-bacc did you do and what was your GPA coming in and out of the program and MCAT?

My situation is very different than yours or the OPs because I wasn't a premed in undergrad but anyways, I went to Scripps, and had an entering GPA around 3.4. After 2 yrs postbac at 4.0 I applied top tier with ~3.65c/4.0s and 39S.

You state also that not everyone posts on SDN and that there are alot more successes than are posted on here. From the 5 or so successes I have heard on SDN, 2 of them got 7+ interviews and acceptances with around a 3.35 overall and science gpa and 3.8+ in the program. So you should consider stop contradicting yourself or make yourself clearer. You are seriously downplaying the impact of a high upward trend from the SSP and including previous undergrad. We are talking about a top 10-15 school in the WORLD that people are getting the chance to prove their academic abilities at. This is not a local college post-bacc. If that were the case everyone would just take classes at their local state university instead of going to UPenn. What would you be more impressed with a 1 year post-bacc at 3.8 from UPenn or from a state university (nothing against state universities either). I believe you would agree that UPenn would win here, however, you do not think that the UPenn SSP equals a SMP say if you have multiple science credits with previous upward trend and complete the SMP at a 3.8-9+ and improving your gpa to 3.4 for overall and 3.35 science? The people who have done this are not just getting 1 interview and acceptance, but multiple ones including high quality medical schools. On top of all this, accelerated acceptance can be granted to RWJSM without a glide year if you meet the 3.6 SSP GPA and 3.2 undergrad. I honestly don't think you are thinking this through. You should instead state that a SMP and UPenn SSP have equal strengths and opportunities to get one into medical school, for those coming in with a 3.1 to 3.3. Remember also that UPenn will only admit you to the SSP program if they believe you have a greater than 50% chance of success.

First of all, I think the SSP is a very good program. It's probably the best one of its type (record-enhancing non-SMP). That said, while I do agree that it will be better than taking classes at a local college, I simply don't recommend applying open pool with anything worse than 3.4 open pool w/o either mid 30s + MCAT or SMP, simply bc the overall success #s are just not that good. Yes, you'll get some mileage out of the school name, and there are a few schools (CW, USC, a few others ) that really seem to like that class of applicant, but applying to med school sucks and you want to put yourself in the best position for success. Even successful applicants get rejected from a good portion of the schools they apply to and you don't want to reapply if you don't have to.

 

[hwpo]

60% of ALL applicants don't get into med school. That pool also has an average GPA of 3.5 and MCAT of 29. Of ppl with those numbers, 60% don't get in. .

Yes I know that of all applicants 60% do not get into med school but this has NOTHING to do with what I am saying. I am talking about rates from UPenn SSP ALONE!! At UPenn SSP 25-35% do not get into med school. So compare 60% failure rate to 25-35% failure rate. This just goes to show how good of a program UPenn SSP is!!! So the 65 to 75% of students from UPenn SSP that do get into med school fall INTO the 40% that get accepted from ALL applicants. The average stats of those finishing the SSP that get into med school are lower than those on the most part than the average statistic of ALL matriculants. AGAIN SHOWING HOW FAR UPENN's SSP CAN GET YOU!!

 

[drizzt3117]

Yes I know that of all applicants 60% do not get into med school but this has NOTHING to do with what I am saying. I am talking about rates from UPenn SSP ALONE!! At UPenn SSP 25-35% do not get into med school. So compare 60% failure rate to 25-35% failure rate. This just goes to show how good of a program UPenn SSP is!!! So the 65 to 75% of students from UPenn SSP that do get into med school fall INTO the 40% that get accepted from ALL applicants. The average stats of those finishing the SSP that get into med school are lower than those on the most part than the average statistic of ALL matriculants. AGAIN SHOWING HOW FAR UPENN's SSP CAN GET YOU!!

I am not sold on those numbers.

I think around a 65-70% success rate (SSP alone) from what I asked my interviewer but he was just guessing

So your interviewer "guessed" there was a 65-70% success rate? Or was it straight from the director's mouth? If so, which of the three directors SSP has had in the past 3 years are you talking about?

You have to remember that past performance doesn't predict future results. Even at programs like Scripps, BM, and Goucher, that have had 100% of their students admitted to medical school in the past 5 years, you aren't guaranteed anything.

My guess is that there is some extra value added from Penn' SSP, but it's not sufficient to make a mediocre student into a competitive one. If there's one commonality between all of the success stories that we've been discussing, it's that all of them were QUALITATIVELY good candidates, who had excellent ECs, and presumably great letters and personal statements.

You seem very focused on past success rates. I think it's of more value to focus on your application as a whole. While I mentioned that I think the SMP is probably better in your case, the one x-factor here, of course, is that you'd have significantly more time and opportunities to do research/volunteering at Penn SSP as opposed to the MAMS/GMS and these can lead into glide year opportunities, so that is something else to consider.

 

[hwpo]

I am not sold on those numbers.



So your interviewer "guessed" there was a 65-70% success rate? Or was it straight from the director's mouth? If so, which of the three directors SSP has had in the past 3 years are you talking about?

You have to remember that past performance doesn't predict future results. Even at programs like Scripps, BM, and Goucher, that have had 100% of their students admitted to medical school in the past 5 years, you aren't guaranteed anything.

My guess is that there is some extra value added from Penn' SSP, but it's not sufficient to make a mediocre student into a competitive one. If there's one commonality between all of the success stories that we've been discussing, it's that all of them were QUALITATIVELY good candidates, who had excellent ECs, and presumably great letters and personal statements.

You seem very focused on past success rates. I think it's of more value to focus on your application as a whole. While I mentioned that I think the SMP is probably better in your case, the one x-factor here, of course, is that you'd have significantly more time and opportunities to do research/volunteering at Penn SSP as opposed to the MAMS/GMS and these can lead into glide year opportunities, so that is something else to consider.

First off I just would like to thank you Drizz and others for putting your perspectives into this.

You seem like you are finally coming to agree with me .

I first asked Dr. Parisi who interviewed me about the numbers that you aren't sold on. He said that they do not keep numbers on the SSP program alone but both the pre-health and SSP combined, which is around 80%.
I then asked based on his experiences with the program, being that he teaches in the program, what he would estimate the success rate of the SSP program would be alone. Dr. Parisi then told me about 70% with about 5% of that number being osteopathic. I was then referred to the director Dr. Victoria C. Ukachukwu for further questioning on the matter.

Dr.Victoria C. Ukachukwu through an email told me with a DIRECT QUOTE:

"The success rate for our special science students is approx 65-75
% and the success rate for our pre-health students is slightly higher at
80-90%."

She also stated that they are currently collecting exact numbers which should be available soon....She said that it is difficult to get back replys from all those who got into med school after the glide year at the SSP.

Don't give stuff about how she is a new director because she has access to all the information on past students in the program.

So this is not saying anything about your QUALITATIVELY statement because the numbers speak for themselves. Now to speak of your QUALITATIVELY statement, Dr.Victoria C. Ukachukwu, you are right that this is common for all the success stories and having excellent ECs and personal statements and all that, BUT IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THAT YOU WOULD GET ADMITTED IN THE FIRST PLACE AT UPENN SSP IF YOU DID NOT HAVE EXCELLENT ECS AND PERSONAL STATEMENTS. UPenn doesn't admit just any random person.

Yes I agree one should put too much weight on the past success numbers, but what other number is more important in choosing a program of this nature? In the end the past success should be of huge value!! Would you rather choose a program with 30% past success or 70 % past success? These numbers speak that the program gets done what it sets out to do...GET YOU IN MED SCHOOL!!



Also BU MAMS has EXCELLENT research opportunities as well, prob better than at UPenn in my opinion because you can do research at any boston area school like Harvard, MIT, etc if you chose to....from the mouth of Dr. Broitman.

 

[drizzt3117]

First off I just would like to thank you Drizz and others for putting your perspectives into this.

You seem like you are finally coming to agree with me .

I first asked Dr. Parisi who interviewed me about the numbers that you aren't sold on. He said that they do not keep numbers on the SSP program alone but both the pre-health and SSP combined, which is around 80%.
I then asked based on his experiences with the program, being that he teaches in the program, what he would estimate the success rate of the SSP program would be alone. Dr. Parisi then told me about 70% with about 5% of that number being osteopathic. I was then referred to the director Dr. Victoria C. Ukachukwu for further questioning on the matter.

Dr.Victoria C. Ukachukwu through an email told me with a DIRECT QUOTE:

"The success rate for our special science students is approx 65-75
% and the success rate for our pre-health students is slightly higher at
80-90%."

She also stated that they are currently collecting exact numbers which should be available soon....She said that it is difficult to get back replys from all those who got into med school after the glide year at the SSP.

Don't give stuff about how she is a new director because she has access to all the information on past students in the program.

I agree to some extent. I think SSP is a good option for certain candidates. I personally think those with the profile you have are better off at a SMP like BU MAMS. I haven't changed my opinion about this and won't.

So this is not saying anything about your QUALITATIVELY statement because the numbers speak for themselves. Now to speak of your QUALITATIVELY statement, Dr.Victoria C. Ukachukwu, you are right that this is common for all the success stories and having excellent ECs and personal statements and all that, BUT IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THAT YOU WOULD GET ADMITTED IN THE FIRST PLACE AT UPENN SSP IF YOU DID NOT HAVE EXCELLENT ECS AND PERSONAL STATEMENTS. UPenn doesn't admit just any random person.

Do you really think the director is going to tell you that people can get accepted with crappy PS/ECs? Of course they'll going to tell you that. Also, keep in mind that SSP is a record-enhancing program, which means that people either didn't get into med school with their current profile or they didn't have the qualifications to do so. Are their ECs competitive compared to other applicants? Maybe, who knows, but saying they're on the surface excellent is simply a statement you'd expect from a director of a program.

Yes I agree one should put too much weight on the past success numbers, but what other number is more important in choosing a program of this nature? In the end the past success should be of huge value!! Would you rather choose a program with 30% past success or 70 % past success? These numbers speak that the program gets done what it sets out to do...GET YOU IN MED SCHOOL!!

The reasons past success numbers aren't that important IMO is simply because each person's case is different. What you need to do is make yourself as competitive as possible.

Also BU MAMS has EXCELLENT research opportunities as well, prob better than at UPenn in my opinion because you can do research at any boston area school like Harvard, MIT, etc if you chose to....from the mouth of Dr. Broitman.

You're not going to have time to do research or volunteer during your first SMP year. Maybe you can during your glide year. As far as opportunities to do research, I think Boston and Philly are pretty comparable. There are a few more institutions in Boston but there are also a lot more premeds. Just because you're a BU student also doesn't mean you can walk into any lab or hospital and get a research position (although there are thousands of premeds that do research at "Harvard". It's not that exclusive a EC.

FYI, I have a decent amount of experience with these two cities, I did my undergrad at MIT and have a masters from Penn <shrug>

 

[hwpo]

I agree to some extent. I think SSP is a good option for certain candidates. I personally think those with the profile you have are better off at a SMP like BU MAMS. I haven't changed my opinion about this and won't.

I think I agree to some extent that BU MAMS would be better....but would you agree that it is not better by that much? I would say it is 55% to 45% BU MAMS to UPenn SSP based on the program success alone for people with my stats.

However the fact that I can save around 25 thousand dollars, not ruin my chances completely of getting into med school if I perform average like I would for SMP if I performed poorly, and have the chance to get into RWJMS directly after the SSP (I pretty much have no shot for accelerated med school acceptance at BU MAMS),....that all puts me in favor of the UPenn SSP....u would not agree? I could always do Georgetown SMP if a year at UPenn doesn't work out (talking around 3.0 to 3.4 at SSP). I have nothing to fall back on with the SMP


Also the research at BU would be for the gap year where you do your lab or research thesis...the same as for UPenn but not thesis work

 

[drizzt3117]

I think I agree to some extent that BU MAMS would be better....but would you agree that it is not better by that much? I would say it is 55% to 45% BU MAMS to UPenn SSP based on the program success alone for people with my stats.

However the fact that I can save around 25 thousand dollars, not ruin my chances completely of getting into med school if I perform average like I would for SMP if I performed poorly, and have the chance to get into RWJMS directly after the SSP (I pretty much have no shot for accelerated med school acceptance at BU MAMS),....that all puts me in favor of the UPenn SSP....u would not agree? I could always do Georgetown SMP if a year at UPenn doesn't work out (talking around 3.0 to 3.4 at SSP). I have nothing to fall back on with the SMP

Also the research at BU would be for the gap year where you do your lab or research thesis...the same as for UPenn but not thesis work

I think your assessment of the downsides seem pretty good, SSP is definitely lower risk, but the thing is, SSP is also lower reward, IMO, unless you did super super well. I think if you did pretty well (let's say 3.7) in the SMP, and did pretty well (32) on the MCAT, you wouldn't be a very competitive candidate, because you'd have ~3.3/32, which is IMO just not competitive. Maybe if you had great qualitative stuff and applied super broadly, you might get a little attention, but IMO now you would be looking at doing a SMP anyways...

If you did the SMP and did similarly well (3.7/32) that you would probably get in somewhere. Yeah it might be harder to get a 3.7 in the SMP compared to getting a 3.7 at SSP, but I'm not absolutely convinced that's the case.

That said, if you nailed the SSP (4.0) and got a mid 30s MCAT, you'd be pretty competitive at low/mid tiers depending on the qualitative factors.

Obviously, if you don't do well in the SMP, you're ruining your chances. You just have to weigh the risk vs the reward, keeping in mind that with SSP, you could do well and still not get in.

 

[rumrunner19]

Interesting back and forth between Drizzt and HWPO.

I am thinking the SSP sounds better for my case, almost regardless of my MCAT. I'd be decently competitive for lower tier schools with a 3.5 cGPA and a 3.42 sciGPA - all assuming i get a good enough MCAT

 

[drizzt3117]

Interesting back and forth between Drizzt and HWPO.

I am thinking the SSP sounds better for my case, almost regardless of my MCAT. I'd be decently competitive for lower tier schools with a 3.5 cGPA and a 3.42 sciGPA - all assuming i get a good enough MCAT

I agree if your MCAT is 32 or above. Otherwise it probably won't be competitive with MD, remember that a lot of schools average your MCAT scores. Most schools generally won't ignore your first score completely.

 

[hwpo]

I agree if your MCAT is 32 or above. Otherwise it probably won't be competitive with MD, remember that a lot of schools average your MCAT scores. Most schools generally won't ignore your first score completely.

Well the linkage is MD and he is already competitive for it...If he gets a 3.6 in the program and 30 MCAT (10,10,10)....I would say with a 30+ and the GPAs you were talking about, you should be competitive for MD schools.

 

[drizzt3117]

Well the linkage is MD and he is already competitive for it...If he gets a 3.6 in the program and 30 MCAT (10,10,10)....I would say with a 30+ and the GPAs you were talking about, you should be competitive for MD schools.

Having to get a 10 in every section is harder than just getting a 30 (probably equivalent to getting a 32)

I don't think a 3.5/30 with a previous 25 MCAT score is that competitive for MD programs, personally.

Linkage programs also aren't guaranteed. They probably interview students with those qualifications but unless you're talking about a program like GW from BM/Scripps/Goucher, it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get accepted with those stats.

 

[hwpo]

Having to get a 10 in every section is harder than just getting a 30 (probably equivalent to getting a 32)

I don't think a 3.5/30 with a previous 25 MCAT score is that competitive for MD programs, personally.

Linkage programs also aren't guaranteed. They probably interview students with those qualifications but unless you're talking about a program like GW from BM/Scripps/Goucher, it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get accepted with those stats.

Ok we are just talking about being competitive remember. Competitive does not equal guarantied acceptances

 

[drizzt3117]

Ok we are just talking about being competitive remember. Competitive does not equal guarantied acceptances

I'm just telling you what I think. In my experience, a 3.5/30 (with a previous 25) is not a competitive application for MD. You might get a stray interview if you apply broadly, but it will be tough sledding.

 

[rumrunner19]

I think if you got a 25 as an undergrad and then got a 30, you'd have a tough job explaining it but as a career-changer of sorts i feel its less significant. There is a story attached to it and whilst its not an excuse, i think it paints a picture as to why I got a 25.

The 3.6/30 linkage is making me lean towards UPenn. I am pretty sure i'll still take a glide year and hope to link during that glide year but either way i'll have to apply to 20+ MD schools, and 10-15 DO schools.

Thanks everyone for their thoughts!