UPitt vs. Stonybrook

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Fumoffu

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Sorry for starting one of these threads. I know everyone hates them.

I just got off the UPitt waitlist and I wanted some input from people. I don't know too much about either school and wasn't at either school long enough to have a lasting impression about either one.

I'm getting about half of my tuition off at Stonybrook while I know nothing about financial aid at UPitt. I said I would call back tomorrow.

Thanks for any input you guys can provide!

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Hi and congrats on having this decision to make! Both are great schools!

I went through this, with the same schools actually, about a month and a half ago. I honestly can tell you that Pitt gave me a better feeling overall. Unfortunately, the financial aid sucks! I think that there's more opportunity to find aid after you're in (as I think the Dean's Scholarship deadline has passed - but it wouldn't hurt to ask), but otherwise, I wouldn't expect a whole lot. Pitt is expensive - but I found it worth it. You need to figure out whether it would be worth it to you.

I guess there are a couple of things to consider here:

Are you looking to do residency in NY?
Is financial aid very important?

If you answer "yes" to these two, I'd go with Stony Brook.

Otherwise, Pitt would be great for research opportunities (SB also has some great ones), and the medical system is awesome. If you want to talk some things out, feel free to PM me.

Best with your decision,
H&T
 
Pittsburg is a much better school... but stony is good for the money...
i guess its about which one is more of a priority...
 
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I had to make a similar decision but went with the state school. I think I would have prefered Pitt but the idea of taking on 100k in more debt to go to Pitt didnt make sense. at 37k it is a huge investment and I cant see it being worth it. good luck deciding
 
Any idea as to what type of specialization you would prefer? I would think the investment of extra tuition at Pitt would be wise if you are looking to get into something competitive like Derm. Not so much with primary care stuff. Just another angle to consider when looking at the tuition disparity.
 
Pitt all the way.

I recall meeting a girl at UPitt who said her #1 choice is Stony Brook. I am not sure why but that makes for another person who prefers SB over Pitt. Personally, I'd take the debt and go to Pitt but then I am planning on a career in academic medicine so prestige is important.
 
Stony Brook is definitely tight on primary care, and as I mentioned in the other SB thread, the clinical training that you get there is tight. I agree with pekq with going to Pitt if you want to get into a more competitive specialty or be an academician.
 
I am looking for residency in NYC. Does UPitt match poorly in NYC residencies or something? Does Stony match better?

As for fields, I think I'm looking at Internal Medicine, fairly sure, but things can change right? So I don't want to limit myself. The only other things I can imagine myself doing would be some sort of Surgery or Emergency Medicine. But almost certain at Internal Medicine.

I know schools don't matter as much as class ranking, board scores, etc... but I've also heard that some residency programs will prefer to match graduates from their own school even if they weren't as good as graduates from other schools...is this true?

Is this Dean Scholarship a yearly thing? Or ONLY when you first matriculate is it your chance to get it?

Thanks for all the input so far guys!
 
I assume that you can apply for the Dean's Scholarship after your first year? Not 100%, call Pitt and check to see.

If you are thinking about Emergency, Pitt has a ridiculous program. I think that you honestly can match where you want to (NY or otherwise), but Pitt may give you a more competitive edge. For internal, I'd say go to either. However, Stony Brook might give you a slight advantage as a state resident, and the school is well-known on the NY hospital circuit. Pitt matches it's students very well at Pitt. Here's the match list:
http://www.medschool.pitt.edu/studentaffairs/newsletters/Match.2004.pdf

I note a total of 11 NY matches in various specialties: a couple at Strong (emergency, ob/gyn, diagnostic radio, internal, ortho), one at Stony Brook (ortho), NYU (surgery/urology, internal), Mt. Sinai (radiation onc), Upstate (emergency) and Lincoln (in the boogie down, emergency).

Of course, this may not mean much since students don't always make the same choices. But the majority of matches are at Pitt.

Essentially, this may come down to whether you want to spend the money.
 
I was in a NY state school vs. Pitt dilemma last year and went with the state school. Pitt has a great reputation and seemed like an amazing place, but I could not justify the extra $$$. However, my financial situation, girlfriend, etc. played a role in my decision.

In hindsight, I am definitely happy with the decision I made. I know this is kind of a cliche, but med school really is what you put into it and you can land that derm, optho, neurosurg., etc. residency from a state school (although you may have to prove yourself a bit more).

Then again, I may not have that same attitude in 3 yrs. when I am trying to match 😉 .
 
well, if you're interested in academic medicine or a more competitive speciality, i would definitely go with pitt- though really stony brook is not a bad school at all. of course, i am waitlisted at stony brook so i may be slightly biased. which location do you prefer?
 
UPitt has some sort of in-state preference for Penn residents thus their matches reflect that preference. In state Penn resident also get cheaper tuition.

As impressive as Pitt's residency match is, I personally found it to be a bit weak for a school ranked as high as it is. Nevertheless, I am sure it's better than SB's matchlist.

On another note, going to UPitt based on the assumption you'll get Dean's scholarship or whatever is not smart planning and I advise against doing that.
 
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Would it be considered rude for me to ask the director if I could get an estimate on what my financial aid package would be like BEFORE I make a final decision?

Or would they just go "well we need a decision now, otherwise you lose the position?"

The other reason I sort of want to extend this is because Stonybrook is having some sort of pre-orientation thing this coming Monday...
 
its not rude at all... in fact, that is exactly what you should do. Just make sure u have all the financial aid apps done and sent before u ask- and ask them for an estimate for now, not an exact figure- so u get an answer sooner.
 
mmz6 said:
its not rude at all... in fact, that is exactly what you should do. Just make sure u have all the financial aid apps done and sent before u ask- and ask them for an estimate for now, not an exact figure- so u get an answer sooner.

Oh the reason I thought it might be rude is because I told her that I would call back tomorrow with a decision...
 
Honestly, you should just go to Pitt. You'll be in more debt but at least you won't have the what if dilemma going on. If you went to Pitt over SB, your thoughts would be "it'd be nice to save 100k+" rather than "would I have matched into "insert competitive residency" at "competitive hospital" if I had attended UPitt?" In other words, no long term regret.
 
Fumoffu said:
Would it be considered rude for me to ask the director if I could get an estimate on what my financial aid package would be like BEFORE I make a final decision?

Or would they just go "well we need a decision now, otherwise you lose the position?"

The other reason I sort of want to extend this is because Stonybrook is having some sort of pre-orientation thing this coming Monday...

Before I got taken off the waitlist, the head of admissions actually offerd to make financial aid package for me before I even asked. I fax the materials to her and they got to it the very next day. At this point, when all the financial aid stuff from the other years as well as the incoming students are done and over with, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to crank out one package.

Stony Brook does have a MD with Honors type of degree which requires you to do research (optional of course) so I think they are trying to steer their program in that direction.
 
Wow...THANKS for the great and personal reply heal&teach! Seems like your PM box was filled though so I had to thank you here.

I talked to the Director today and she sort of reluctantly agreed to give me till Thursday to decide after I asked if I would be able to see a financial aid package estimate first before I decide. It was really considerate of her to give me more time though, since she could have just as easily said "Nope sorry bye!" I felt sort of rude about it since I did say I would have a decision by today.

Thanks for all the input so far guys!
 
Fumoffu!

No problem! And I've cleared out my PM box!

I'm glad that you've got some more time now to make a decision. If you haven't already, it might be best to do a pros-cons list this weekend. You might actually be able to make a pretty solid decision, and getting the financial aid package should just solidify the decision. Again, best of luck, and feel free to PM or call. 🙂

H&T
 
pekq said:
Honestly, you should just go to Pitt. You'll be in more debt but at least you won't have the what if dilemma going on. If you went to Pitt over SB, your thoughts would be "it'd be nice to save 100k+" rather than "would I have matched into "insert competitive residency" at "competitive hospital" if I had attended UPitt?" In other words, no long term regret.

By the same token, if you go to Pitt and end up doing a non-competitive residency and get into the program of your choice with no problems, then you might be wondering "What if I went to SB over Pitt, could I have still gotten in and saved myself $100,00?"
 
Very true turk!

But if there is one thing that is uncertain - it's whether or not you stick to your guns! From my med student friends and other physicians, I've definitely learned that I might want to do something (as I have a focus now), but then absolutely hate it when I go through a rotation!!! It's all relative. Unless the OP is super sure that s/he wants to specialize, it's hard to even make a choice based on that because the OP may change her/his mind later.

Don't you just love this process!
 
Honestly, don't worry about long-term career goals right now, there is so much that you will have to go through in the next 4 years that will sway your mind, and of course, the future is always uncertain. Think about your immediate future, where you will be happier. Which location do you like better? If you end up wanting to go into a competitive field, then you can still match if you do well enough at SB. People are too anal about landing into X field before they even get into med school, and most of the time they change their minds and go into something else anyway.
 
Agreed. Good post. 👍

Is being near family important to you? Not that you'd be able to see them all that often, but would you rather be an hour and a half away, or close to eight (not too many opportunity for a weekend home from Pitt)...

That might be another thing to think about.
 
turk00 said:
By the same token, if you go to Pitt and end up doing a non-competitive residency and get into the program of your choice with no problems, then you might be wondering "What if I went to SB over Pitt, could I have still gotten in and saved myself $100,00?"

I'd rather have the luxury of wondering if I would have also gotten into X residency from SB than wonder if I would have gotten into X residency if I had chosen to go to UPitt.

Since you can't be sure that you absolutely want to go into a noncompetitive residency, you might as well play it safe and go to Pitt. Sure, if you do well at SB you can get great residency but you are assuming you will do AOA well. At least at Pitt, you don't need to be a superstar to get competitive residencies. Play it safe and go to Pitt. Unless you want to be close to family or much prefer SB's location.
 
Student satisfaction is fine and dandy (especially with only 26 students completing surveys for Pitt, and 9 for Stony Brook - helpful information, but not even a fair comparison), but choosing a medical school is a very personal choice. Going on other student's satisfaction with a school is one aspect, but you need to be able to make a decision based on whether or not you fit into the school's environment.

Stony Brook is a great school! Their students get into competitive residencies, and are very well trained. To choose a school based solely on reputation, especially at this cost (and more importantly, without having a good feeling about the school) would be a detrimental decision to make.

The other thing to remember is that medical school is medical school. Wherever you go, you're going to get get good training - bottom line. Yes, Pitt has a better reputation for research, academics, and is great in a number of specialties, but reputation does not ensure happiness. You need to choose the place where you'd be happy, and for the most part, you will be happy wherever you go, but the influence of factors such as family and finances can make or break your experience.

Just my $0.02.
 
To the OP:

Don't subscribe to all the hogwash in the SDN forums about prestige, academia and residency placement. The bottom line is that prestige is a SECONDARY factor in residency placement. This statement is corroborated by not only Kenneth Iverson, who wrote the gold standard book for residency preparation (i.e., Getting Into a Residency), but also the house staff listings at top residency programs. With respect to the latter, if you do the research yourself (which is what I did), you'll find a surprisingly high number of graduates from mid-tier and unranked schools at very prestigious residency programs. I encourage you to explore the websites for various top schools and check out the house staff listings for the residency programs--you'll be pleasantly surprised. The beauty of the Match is that it truely is merit-based, meaning that your performance in medical school (clinical evaluations, scores on standardized tests, etc.) is paramount.

Some people will argue that students at top schools have easier access to letters of recommendation from nationally and internationally renowned faculty. While I agree that this is true and also that letters of recommendation play an important role in the Match (Iverson makes this very claim along with many individuals in the SDN graduate medical forums), one should be aware of two things:
1) Students can do "away" rotations at schools where they want to match, and these away rotations are golden opportunities to "network"--i.e., establish connections with renowned faculty, chairpersons, etc. Similarly, students can set up research stints at other schools, which is a great way to establish a mentoring relationship with prominent faculty member at another institution.
2) Getting good letters of recommendation from top faculty requires initiative. the student has to forge the relationship with the faculty member. Thus, the letter of recommendation argument in favor of prestige only applies to people who are unwilling to go the "extra mile," so to speak, to make connections at other institutions.

If you think that you can attend a prestigious medical school and simply scrape by with mediocre marks, and still manage to land a choice residency program in a competitive specialty, you're sorely mistaken. Prestige can't compensate for lackluster performance. Top residency programs want the best students, regardless of what school they hail from.

The whole academia argument--namely, that you should attend a prestigious medical school if you want to go into academics--is totally bogus. Check out the faculty profiles at a wide variety of medical schools; you'll see faculty members, including tenured faculty, with medical degrees from a lot of different medical schools. Again, success as an academic physician depends almost entirely on your own leg work (i.e., your publications, your teaching ability, and other notable accomplishments such as pioneering work in a particular field).

The ONLY scenario in which prestige is truly beneficial for academia is the issue of chairmanships. If you want to become the chairman of a department, then prestige should be a factor in your decision. But even in the case of chairmanships, you'll find numerous exceptions to the rule that prestige is a sort of prerequisite for success. It's certainly true that where you do your residency is more important for the purpose of getting a position as a chair than where you went to medical school. Certain residency programs (usually the most prestigious ones) are designed to produce academic leaders--the neurosurgery program at Columbia comes to mind. These places are trying to produce future chairs of departments.

The bottom line: your ultimate professional and academic success will depend on what YOU accomplish as a medical student, resident and full-fledged physician, not on your institutional affiliations. The medical field really is a meritocracy.

Good luck in your decision, and if it isn't obvious by now, if I were you I'd choose the cheaper option.
 
elias514 said:
[Lengthy, convincing argument that school prestige is of limited utility in predicting match success]

But then look at the signature: University of Michigan Class of 2008!
😀 So did you not follow your own advice or what? I'm sure you had cheaper options, even if you are a Michigan resident. Kind of easy to say prestige doesn't matter when you will be attending a top ten med school.
 
I didn't choose Michigan because of the prestige factor. I chose it for a variety of different reasons, one of which was the opportunity to stay away from my extremely dysfunctional family and all the drama. A person that chooses Michigan because of its top ten ranking, peer assessment and residency director scores is making a big mistake. The only people at Michigan that match into prestigious residency programs in very competitive specialties are the ones that excel. In fact, if you closely investigate the match lists for Michigan, you'll find that the matches of this sort (e.g., ENT at Hopkins, or radiation oncology at Stanford) are AOA students.

Even though I will be attending Michigan for medical school, I am 100% convinced that reputation really doesn't matter all that much. I don't subscribe to the argument that prestige is a guarantor of success. Choosing a school primarily because of prestige is dumb. Choose a school because you think you'll do your best work there, not because of some ridiculous ranking in US News.
 
Haha, its hard to take you seriously when you proudly announce you are going to a top10. We need Eraserhead in here to announce that prestige doesn't matter and then go 360 when he gets off Cornell's waitlist 😀 .
 
I'm sure it sounds hypocritical, but I'm being completely honest here. The fact that Michigan is my first choice has much more to do with the location of the school (Ann Arbor is a perfect fit for me--I don't like congestion of big cities), the curriculum, the set of departmental strengths (I'm very interested in surgery, and Michigan rocks for surgery), and my impressions of the school during the visits than the school's ranking.

In fact, I wish that US News would just stop ranking schools, because the rankings are VERY flawed and they cause people to choose schools for the wrong reasons. Some rankings are misleading (e.g., Mayo and the University of Chicago in the 20's, both of which are totally ridiculous), and a school's numerical rank certainly doesn't indicate the quality of the overall education. The response rates for the peer assessment and residency director scores are abysmal; further, the program directors were selected from only 3 different medical specialties (radiology, surgery, and something else). Too much weight is assigned to NIH funding, which is pretty much irrelevant to a student's medical education (for MD/PhD students, the NIH funding is important, but not for regular MD's). The worthlessness of the residency director and peer assessment scores is blatantly obvious when you look at the match list for schools like Baylor. The school's residency director score is 3.8, yet a ridiculously high proportion of Baylor grads every single year match at very prestigious programs in very competitive specialties (e.g., neurosurgery at Penn).

Trust me, I think the US News rankings system is a total joke, and I could care less about Michigan's ranking. All I know is that I'm going to have to bust some serious ass to get where I want to go and that Michigan the institution, in spite of my earnest desires, won't take steps 1 and 2 of the USMLE, won't take my exams for courses, and won't take care of patients when I'm on the wards. My success will depend on ME, not on some stupid ranking.
 
. . . and if someone wrote that (honestly very informative) thread and attended an unranked school their message would be seen as indignant.
 
elias514 said:
The response rates for the peer assessment and residency director scores are abysmal; further, the program directors were selected from only 3 different medical specialties (radiology, surgery, and something else).


Wow that is just asinine. Simply silly stupid.
 
LOL yeah rankings don't mean squat to me. I already chose Stonybrook over higher-ranked schools I got in before May 15th.

Thanks for all the input so far guys!

On a side note, I just got taken by Kinkos for 41 dollars. I had trouble faxing my financial aid forms to UPitt today and the lady at their office insisted their fax machine was ok.

Went to Kinkos and STILL got problems so I called and a different lady told me their fax machine has been having problems. The bill came out to be 41 dollars for a 27 page document (1.50 a page, 2 bucks first page...)

OUCH. Guess I should have asked the price before I faxed huh?
 
$41!!!! That's outrageous!!!! 😱

The debate on this thread has been pretty laughable, but at least it didn't get as bad as the Pitt v. Dartmouth thread...
 
Yeah actually when I asked how much it was and pulling out a 20, she told me the price and I think I actually said "Wait what...?!?" :laugh:

Anyone know if this is their actual price or did i get scammed by someone on their last day? lol
 
:laugh: Kinko's is expensive in general. It's probably cheaper to buy your own fax machine, even if you use it once, it'll still be worth less than what those crazy daisies charge...
 
Fumoffu, I got housed by Kinkos on faxing too... although it cost me $20-ish. Its just a rip off, oh well. Lesson learned.

Regarding your question, I dont have any great insight (crystal ball is fuzzy today). Both are great schools, I think you have to determine at which school will you perform the best and what kind of environment do you need to perform at that high level. These items include many of the comments discussed already in this thread and some you've investigated during your research and interview of both programs. I ask you this question 'which is a better fit for you?' Fit is an amorphous term. Sometimes you've gotta go on instinct and trust your gut... if not there is always financial aid and don't forget about a good ol' fashioned coin flip. Good luck on your decision. I'm on the W/L at Stony but I hope you pick the best school for you!
 
The reputation scores are an absolute joke. From what I understand they have about a 50% response rate. Anyone who knows anything about statistics would realize that that these rankings are statistically meaningless.
 
Narutally my question now is...

Which school matches residencies better - Stony or UPitt?

Nationwide?

How about just in NY state hospitals?

I'm pretty clueless on this subject.
 
I think that regionally, either school will match pretty well in that particular region.

Stony Brook, as well as all of the NY state schools, are well known in NY and tend to match well there. From the Pitt match list, we can see that students at Pitt who want to stay at Pitt have a great opportunity to do so.

I can't really answer from a nationwide perspective though. I know people here in GA who knew Stony Brook when I told them that I was accepted there (esp. since a division head in our center is an alum), and some people asked "what/where is Pitt? It all depends. I would refer back to elias' post in saying that med school is what you make of it. If you want to land a residency in a specific state, you can do it if you put the work into it and get your connections straight.

Since you're really looking at staying in NY, and NY is one of those states that favors residents in the residency placement process, it would be advantageous to go to a NY state school. It doesn't mean that Pitt won't allow you the same opportunity, but where you match depends on the effort you'll put into whatever school you're in.

I know that you've been mulling over this decision for a few days now... and honestly speaking... if you don't have a strong feeling about either school, it might be best to go for Stony Brook. I think that you'd get everything that you'd be able to get at Pitt for less, and at least be somewhere where the majority of students match in NY state (by the virtue of it being a state school) - which is where your interests are.
 
UPitt did impress me on their interview day actually because it seemed like they really DID want you to get to know the school and the city better. Unlike some other interviews I went to where I was sitting down or wandering for a large portion of time (not Stonybrook).

As I understand, UPitt and the hospital network there consists of 10 different hospitals? Are the residency programs there well-known for any particular field? Are they considered "competitive" residency programs for those fields?

Thanks.

I will be going to Stonybrook's Pre-Orientation program tomorrow so I will get a better idea of Stonybrook tomorrow.
 
Fumoffu said:
UPitt did impress me on their interview day actually because it seemed like they really DID want you to get to know the school and the city better. Unlike some other interviews I went to where I was sitting down or wandering for a large portion of time (not Stonybrook).

As I understand, UPitt and the hospital network there consists of 10 different hospitals? Are the residency programs there well-known for any particular field? Are they considered "competitive" residency programs for those fields?

Thanks.

I will be going to Stonybrook's Pre-Orientation program tomorrow so I will get a better idea of Stonybrook tomorrow.

UPMC is a US News Honor Roll hospital system. that means it's in the top 15 across categories. If memory serves, they're especially strong in surg. and surg.sub spec.'s and also in EM.
 
Heal&Teach said:
Stony Brook, as well as all of the NY state schools, are well known in NY and tend to match well there. From the Pitt match list, we can see that students at Pitt who want to stay at Pitt have a great opportunity to do so.

I can't really answer from a nationwide perspective though. I know people here in GA who knew Stony Brook when I told them that I was accepted there (esp. since a division head in our center is an alum), and some people asked "what/where is Pitt? It all depends.

If someone has trouble deciphering where The University of Pittsburgh is located, for crying out loud, I think I'd take their opinion with an entire salt shaker 🙄
 
samurai_lincoln said:
If someone has trouble deciphering where The University of Pittsburgh is located, for crying out loud, I think I'd take their opinion with an entire salt shaker 🙄

Hi there my RJ-aliased friend. 😉 Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought, but more often than not, people didn't know what I was talking about... :laugh:.

Fumoffu, I hope that the pre-orientation at SB tomorrow is enlightening for you. Let us know how your day goes. 🙂
 
Things went well for the most part. Faculty and admin seemed really nice, but they seemed nice at almost every other school I interviewed at too.

Students seemed happy, but ditto for that.

One thing I was unhappy to discover was that apparently there's a lottery system for which hospitals you want to rotate at. Is that how it is at UPitt? I can't imagine that being the case since there are 10+ hospitals there...

The only other thing I didn't like was that the 3rd year rotations seemed REALLY inflexible and FAR too concentrated on internal medicine and family practice to my liking (12 weeks and 8 weeks respectively!!!). Even though I am primarily looking at internal medicine, I would prefer some more flexibility and breadth in rotations to get a better view. I know at UPitt the internal medicine and family practice rotations are 8 weeks and 4 weeks respectively? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Pitt is the 18th school in the country according to US news and world report!!Ranked higher than Georgetown, Tufts, BU, Dartmouth, MSSM, NYU, etc. Check the rting in "Assessment score by residency directors" Pitt is like top 15. (need to pay for USNews to see this stuff). Go to Pitt man, the schools aren't really the same, like people want oyu to think. I did not visit either school so I can't comment on the people, but I was shocked to see this thread. What is next? Howard vs Harvard?
Ultimately, don't listen to SDNers like me. Just go to the place that you are happiest, bottom line, but don't let anyone convince you that you won't lose much by turning down Pitt.
Good luck
 
Ummm.. it's actually 15th in the latest research rankings... but I think that we kinda established that rankings don't matter here... (did you see elias' posts?)

Ditto to the latter half of your statement that the OP should go where s/he's happiest with the overall program. 🙂
 
True, but Pitt is such a great school. I wish I got in there. I just don't want to see anyone pass up such a good opportunity. Plus, even if you want to get into say...pediatrics, wouldn't you want to land a residency at Mass Childrens hospital or somewhere awesome like that.
Anyway, I don't know much about the NY system.
And I agree money is definitely a factor because you have to settle down and buy a house, etc.
I guess making tough decisions builds character, and ultimately the decision has already been made for you, once you decide. (Sorry for getting a little philosophical)
Good luck to all. This thread has really made me think...
 
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