URMs in primary care vs. specialties

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Hello all, I haven't posted much on here but I've had something on my mind for awhile and thought I might hopefully get some good input. I am a 3rd year AA student who is currently planning to pursue radiology. I have scoured the internet looking at program websites with pictures of residents, and faculty at many. Of all of them, I don't believe I have seen a single AA. Which leads me to my question:

From all of your experience, what do you think are the main factors behind the disproportionate amount of AA/URM medical students entering primary care over specialties? I am a bit out of touch at my own institution as I took a 2 year LOA and so am not really connected with my own class, but I remember my former classmates, the blacks all went into FM, OB/GYN, peds, or psych. Interested in anybody's thoughts. I have more to say but don't want to go into too much detail if nobody is interested.
 
More competitive specialties require more competitive academic abilities. The fact that they hold minorities to a lesser standard for admission means they get minority students of lesser academic abilities than their non-minority counterparts. Thus, they perform at a lesser level, and are then forced into less competitive residencies.

If they held minorities to an identical standard with respect to admissions, they'd get a more even distribution, I'd guess. Of course by doing so, they'd get very few minorities. But, uh, last I checked, minorities, by definition, are few in number. Not to mention the even smaller segment capable of excelling in med school.

Or maybe all black people hate derm.
 
I just had one friend match surgery in Cali (forget where), another matched derm at Hopkins (as well as many other top programs), and another matched Peds at Children's National Medical Center (primary care, I know, but pretty competitive) - all Black...my list can easily continue, so calm that down, sideways. We're not going there on this thread.

Anyways, if you look at most med schools, how many AAs are you seeing per class? Now look to private med schools and the numbers drop to usually <10 per class (we have 4 -__- ). That's where we're starting from. Now, how old are most of the doctors you see? Maybe in their mid-50s to 60s? That puts us back in '60s and '70s that they attended med school.

Now, I know my undergrad didn't even start accepting Blacks until the 60s, so you know that the amount of Blacks in med school back then was limited, to say the least. So, we're dealing with ~5 decades of admission of Blacks to medical school (outside of the HBCUs), at a rate of about 5-15 Blacks per class per school (rough est.)...even if we stuck with national averages, you still wouldn't be seeing a plethora of AAs in academic medicine. Now, add that to the fact that many AAs chose to go into primary care because they feel that this is the best, most direct way to give back to their community, and I feel that it's easy to get a sense of what is going on.

Furthermore, (and this is just a personal belief) with a historic preference for primary care added to limited admissions for decades, there's an absence of AA mentors in non-primary care specialties. I really do believe this makes a difference. I'm not saying that we can't make it without mentors, however do I think it helps seeing others that look like you in the place you hope to one day be? Absolutely.

We all know Match Day was just a few weeks ago and I personally know ~20 AAs that matched - over half did NOT match into primary care. So, what ever is going on and whatever you want to attribute these trends to, rest assured change is coming and diversity will slowly be felt in all realms of medicine - not just primary care.

***Disclaimer: I know nothing about the 3 HBCUs whose student bodies comprise something like over half of the AAs in med school, so I'm omitting them from my comment. I'd say that what happens within their student bodies is highly influential to what you're observing on a national scale. Don't quote me on this (and perhaps someone else will chime in), but I think HU has a commitment to primary care, and they have easily produced the largest % of Blacks in medicine.

Just my two cents.
 
I believe it's a combination of URMs preferring primary care specialties as compared to non-minorities (already proven in the literature), not having mentors to encourage them into their field , and not having scores competitive enough to get in. I know students who went into primary care that fell in either one of those 3 categories. I matched into ortho which has one of the smallest numbers of minorities as compares to other fields. When I was looking at the resident's pictures for various programs I rarely saw a black face, but heck there aren't that many females either. Either way the point is that we will never make changes if we become intimidated by the lack of similar faces. Regardless of the lack of mentors in your desired field push forward, and make it a point to become a mentor to those behind you so that we can eventually change the trend.

Anecdotally I have friends who are minorities who matched into all of the competitive specialties.
 
I believe it's a combination of URMs preferring primary care specialties as compared to non-minorities (already proven in the literature), not having mentors to encourage them into their field , and not having scores competitive enough to get in. I know students who went into primary care that fell in either one of those 3 categories. I matched into ortho which has one of the smallest numbers of minorities as compares to other fields. When I was looking at the resident's pictures for various programs I rarely saw a black face, but heck there aren't that many females either. Either way the point is that we will never make changes if we become intimidated by the lack of similar faces. Regardless of the lack of mentors in your desired field push forward, and make it a point to become a mentor to those behind you so that we can eventually change the trend.

Anecdotally I have friends who are minorities who matched into all of the competitive specialties.

DoctaJay, I totally agree with your comment. I know far to many minorities who are highly qualified for almost any specialty (competitive or non-competitive), but so many of them have that intimidation factor. If you are afraid to go through the door, nothing will change. The opportunities are there; you must reach out and obtained them. Like DoctaJay mentioned. Change the trend and become mentors to those behind you...
 
I just had one friend match surgery in Cali (forget where), another matched derm at Hopkins (as well as many other top programs), and another matched Peds at Children's National Medical Center (primary care, I know, but pretty competitive) - all Black...my list can easily continue, so calm that down, sideways. We're not going there on this thread.

Anyways, if you look at most med schools, how many AAs are you seeing per class? Now look to private med schools and the numbers drop to usually <10 per class (we have 4 -__- ). That's where we're starting from. Now, how old are most of the doctors you see? Maybe in their mid-50s to 60s? That puts us back in '60s and '70s that they attended med school.

Now, I know my undergrad didn't even start accepting Blacks until the 60s, so you know that the amount of Blacks in med school back then was limited, to say the least. So, we're dealing with ~5 decades of admission of Blacks to medical school (outside of the HBCUs), at a rate of about 5-15 Blacks per class per school (rough est.)...even if we stuck with national averages, you still wouldn't be seeing a plethora of AAs in academic medicine. Now, add that to the fact that many AAs chose to go into primary care because they feel that this is the best, most direct way to give back to their community, and I feel that it's easy to get a sense of what is going on.

Furthermore, (and this is just a personal belief) with a historic preference for primary care added to limited admissions for decades, there's an absence of AA mentors in non-primary care specialties. I really do believe this makes a difference. I'm not saying that we can't make it without mentors, however do I think it helps seeing others that look like you in the place you hope to one day be? Absolutely.

We all know Match Day was just a few weeks ago and I personally know ~20 AAs that matched - over half did NOT match into primary care. So, what ever is going on and whatever you want to attribute these trends to, rest assured change is coming and diversity will slowly be felt in all realms of medicine - not just primary care.

***Disclaimer: I know nothing about the 3 HBCUs whose student bodies comprise something like over half of the AAs in med school, so I'm omitting them from my comment. I'd say that what happens within their student bodies is highly influential to what you're observing on a national scale. Don't quote me on this (and perhaps someone else will chime in), but I think HU has a commitment to primary care, and they have easily produced the largest % of Blacks in medicine.

Just my two cents.

Hey sis-
I have to disagree with you about this changing. It seems like this is remaining relatively flat(minorities getting into specialities) as it has been. I mean peds is primary care as well as some of the other fields I bet the 1/2 of those 20 people got into.(But to me Primary care is so vague people even have called GS primary care at one med. school program I looked at.) Also how did you friend match at multiple top programs in Derm I only thought you could match one? Not trying to stir the pot but thinking alound?

As for sideways, he tends to always be like that which is pretty pathetic imho. He can either interject nicely and with tact or to say it on his level gtfohb. B=bro btw.
 
My apologies - rushed typing. She matched at one, interviewed at some great places, and (imo) could have had her pick. Her success was due to dedication, mentoring, and confidence.

I have no idea of the rates of AAs matching anywhere, so you're probably right, Makati. I still think schools like HU with a strong dedication to primary care and supplying a large % of AA docs are playing a huge role, and for that reason alone, you're probably correct in saying that things are staying fairly constant.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that I don't care what others are doing - if I want something, I'm going for it. Period.

Oh, and congrats, DoctaJay! I know how much you wanted ortho - nice to see your hard work paid off 🙂
 
Hello all, I haven't posted much on here but I've had something on my mind for awhile and thought I might hopefully get some good input. I am a 3rd year AA student who is currently planning to pursue radiology. I have scoured the internet looking at program websites with pictures of residents, and faculty at many. Of all of them, I don't believe I have seen a single AA. Which leads me to my question:

From all of your experience, what do you think are the main factors behind the disproportionate amount of AA/URM medical students entering primary care over specialties? I am a bit out of touch at my own institution as I took a 2 year LOA and so am not really connected with my own class, but I remember my former classmates, the blacks all went into FM, OB/GYN, peds, or psych. Interested in anybody's thoughts. I have more to say but don't want to go into too much detail if nobody is interested.

I'm pursuing rads too and noticed the same thing. I think it's a couple of things.
1) there's just not too many of us overall
2) the specialties have fewer spots than primary care and are more competitive especially more academic oriented
3) on average we just don't perform as well objectively
4) I feel many us feel that primary care is the best way to have the largest impact on the community

At my school this past year we had black females match into ortho, GS, and GAS. Also had a black male match into EM. Still the majority were doing IM, peds, and OB.

In my class there are 3 of us interested in rads. 2 interested in ortho and a couple for EM. Still the large majority is probably doing primary care
 
More competitive specialties require more competitive academic abilities. The fact that they hold minorities to a lesser standard for admission means they get minority students of lesser academic abilities than their non-minority counterparts. Thus, they perform at a lesser level, and are then forced into less competitive residencies.

If they held minorities to an identical standard with respect to admissions, they'd get a more even distribution, I'd guess. Of course by doing so, they'd get very few minorities. But, uh, last I checked, minorities, by definition, are few in number. Not to mention the even smaller segment capable of excelling in med school.

Or maybe all black people hate derm.

Allopathic minorities have higher matriculating stats than osteopathic matriculants. And there are plenty of URMs who go on to competitive specialties. Many just don't see anything wrong with primary care. Also many of them have a desire to practice in an underserved area.

Your statement would be akin to me saying osteopathic students don't get into competitive specialties when plenty of them do.
 
Allopathic minorities have higher matriculating stats than osteopathic matriculants. And there are plenty of URMs who go on to competitive specialties. Many just don't see anything wrong with primary care. Also many of them have a desire to practice in an underserved area.


Your statement would be akin to me saying osteopathic students don't get into competitive specialties when plenty of them do.

"Allopathic minorities" :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


You seem deft and using the words "plenty" and "many" interchangeably. Pick a position. Either minorities go into primary care or they go into specialties.

As far as the underserved argument, LOL. I'm not your Grandma. I know how this game works, so don't piss on my leg and tell me your dog has a hole in his bladder. Everyone chases the dollar.
 
You seem deft and using the words "plenty" and "many" interchangeably. Pick a position. Either minorities go into primary care or they go into specialties.

As far as the underserved argument, LOL. I'm not your Grandma. I know how this game works, so don't piss on my leg and tell me your dog has a hole in his bladder. Everyone chases the dollar.

What's so funny about "allopathic minorities"? Or are you just laughing (if so you overused the smilies) to try to make your position have more bite (if so it failed)?

Sorry trying to derail my argument about word choice isn't really going to help your case. Lol apparently you believe minorities are all some hive mind. The empirical evidence says the go into both.

Money is very important but not everyone is obsessed with it that they will let it determine their work lives. You might as well say osteopathic students either go into primary care or specialties.
 
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What's so funny about "allopathic minorities"? Or are you just laughing (if so you overused the smilies) to try to make your position have more bite (if so it failed)?

Sorry trying to derail my argument about word choice isn't really going to help your case. Lol apparently you believe minorities are all some hive mind. The empirical evidence says the go into both.

Money is very important but not everyone is obsessed with it that they will let it determine their work lives. You might as well say osteopathic students either go into primary care or specialties.

I didn't realize there was something in between....?? 🙄

Also, I didn't get into my state MD program BECAUSE there were URM's strolling in with 23 and 24 MCATs and subpar GPAs (I dont buy it as the sole reason I didn't get in, applying late helped too, but being high on the waitlist, that is certain a reason)... the end-goal was clear. Did I care? Not really. Sure, I went DO. I did well, matched allopathic anesthesiology.

Then again...

Albert_Einstein.jpg
 
I didn't realize there was something in between....?? 🙄

Also, I didn't get into my state MD program BECAUSE there were URM's strolling in with 23 and 24 MCATs and subpar GPAs (I dont buy it as the sole reason I didn't get in, applying late helped too, but being high on the waitlist, that is certain a reason)... the end-goal was clear. Did I care? Not really. Sure, I went DO. I did well, matched allopathic anesthesiology.

Then again...


That's funny, AMCAS Facts says that the lowest URM avg for MCAT for matriculants is a 26.6 which is still higher than the avg MCAT for D.O schools. Also looking at the GPA/MCAT grid 1014 white applicants were able to get in with a 23 MCAT or below in the years of 2008-2010 and 945 Black applicants got in with a MCAT of 23 or below for the years of 2008-2010. Why only complain about URMS?

Also while a 24 is on the low side it doesn't mean that you can't do medical school. New schools such as LMU-DCOM have a 24 MCAT average.

Did you ask all of these URMs for their GPA and MCAT? It's pretty telling how you are certain you didn't get in to your school because of some URMs and your justification is that you were "high" on the waitlist which could mean top 100 to top 50.

Also what was your MCAT and GPA? And what state is your "state school" in?

And I don't think you understood my post since I wasn't hating on osteopathic students. I was saying that even with lower matriculating stats they still are able to match into specialties. I specifically used osteopathic students to prove my point because it is understood that osteopathic medical graduates are the same quality as allopathic medical graduates.

But I think that point escaped you...
 
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Look you fool. Did not get in because you were not good enough. Being qualified for a position does not morally entitle you to a MD seat. I assure you no medical school is accepting students of any race that cannot pass the USMLE and graduate medical school. Trust me, if a kid gets in with a 3.4 and 29, they are bringing something unique to the table. You would have gotten in IF you would have applied on time. Have fun with your DO degree imbecile.
 
I am a pre-med student who just graduated from undergrad 😀 and I am interested in a competitive speciality, Derm, of course 😀.
I never knew that Derm was so competitive because it's something I always wanted to pursue since my youth. I research a lot on my field on the AAD website and look for research opps. I know it's pretty early but I just want to know the info and how to get there so when I am in medical school it's a smooth sailing trip 😎

I think ppl pick primary care because they want to do primary care just like ppl are interested in a ROADS FIELD 🙂
 
No more insults you two. Future warnings will be official

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Did you read the post? The person is clearly racist. I don't think anyone on this forum wants someone to discredit OUR hard work in achieving what we want to do.
 
Did you read the post? The person is clearly racist. I don't think anyone on this forum wants someone to discredit OUR hard work in achieving what we want to do.

But did you read the post? Maybe you were replying to sideways, but seems as if you were replying to Doctor4Life1769. If you were replying to sideways, I agree with you. However, Doctor4Life1769 seemed to be making a point contrary to how you took it. He stated he did not blame URMs for his not getting in (like so many other people have). The way he said it may not have been the most tactful, but that's how I took it. As a DO student myself I felt doubly insulted on this thread as one poster sought to marginalize URMs in healthcare and another inadvertently marginalized DOs to make a counter point (I understand it was not his intention).

To the original question; IMHO you have to look at the numbers in the AA subset. In total we make up a very small portion of the medical population and of that small portion AA males make up a drastically smaller portion. (AA male DO students make up less than 1% of all DO students) The vast majority of people I have spoken to have been AA females and the most say they chose Primary Care because they want to raise a family and be around for the children more. That's also the reason why I will choose a less demanding specialty when it comes time. So, while it can definitely be attributed to a lack of mentorship and encouragement, I feel as if a desire to have stable family lives also plays a part.
 
But did you read the post? Maybe you were replying to sideways, but seems as if you were replying to Doctor4Life1769. If you were replying to sideways, I agree with you. However, Doctor4Life1769 seemed to be making a point contrary to how you took it. He stated he did not blame URMs for his not getting in (like so many other people have). The way he said it may not have been the most tactful, but that's how I took it. As a DO student myself I felt doubly insulted on this thread as one poster sought to marginalize URMs in healthcare and another inadvertently marginalized DOs to make a counter point (I understand it was not his intention).

To the original question; IMHO you have to look at the numbers in the AA subset. In total we make up a very small portion of the medical population and of that small portion AA males make up a drastically smaller portion. (AA male DO students make up less than 1% of all DO students) The vast majority of people I have spoken to have been AA females and the most say they chose Primary Care because they want to raise a family and be around for the children more. That's also the reason why I will choose a less demanding specialty when it comes time. So, while it can definitely be attributed to a lack of mentorship and encouragement, I feel as if a desire to have stable family lives also plays a part.

I was responding to Doctor4life1769. I agree with what you are saying, though I personally feel mentor-ship and encouragement plays a bigger role
 
But did you read the post? Maybe you were replying to sideways, but seems as if you were replying to Doctor4Life1769. If you were replying to sideways, I agree with you. However, Doctor4Life1769 seemed to be making a point contrary to how you took it. He stated he did not blame URMs for his not getting in (like so many other people have). The way he said it may not have been the most tactful, but that's how I took it. As a DO student myself I felt doubly insulted on this thread as one poster sought to marginalize URMs in healthcare and another inadvertently marginalized DOs to make a counter point (I understand it was not his intention).

To the original question; IMHO you have to look at the numbers in the AA subset. In total we make up a very small portion of the medical population and of that small portion AA males make up a drastically smaller portion. (AA male DO students make up less than 1% of all DO students) The vast majority of people I have spoken to have been AA females and the most say they chose Primary Care because they want to raise a family and be around for the children more. That's also the reason why I will choose a less demanding specialty when it comes time. So, while it can definitely be attributed to a lack of mentorship and encouragement, I feel as if a desire to have stable family lives also plays a part.

There are plenty of specialties that have as good, if not superior, lifestyles to primary care fields. I don't buy that argument one bit
 
There are plenty of specialties that have as good, if not superior, lifestyles to primary care fields. I don't buy that argument one bit

You don't have to buy it. I'm not selling it. I just pointed out what I have been told, which was stated in my post. I'm planning to choose one of those lifestyle friendly specialties myself.
 
It could be that some are planning on doing fellowships after their residences and specializing further. I'm interested in gastroenterology (at the moment anyway) but would have to do internal medicine first. Internal medicine and peds can lead to alot of specializations later.
 
You don't have to buy it. I'm not selling it. I just pointed out what I have been told, which was stated in my post. I'm planning to choose one of those lifestyle friendly specialties myself.

Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was disagreeing with what you were told.
 
Hello all, I haven't posted much on here but I've had something on my mind for awhile and thought I might hopefully get some good input. I am a 3rd year AA student who is currently planning to pursue radiology. I have scoured the internet looking at program websites with pictures of residents, and faculty at many. Of all of them, I don't believe I have seen a single AA. Which leads me to my question:

From all of your experience, what do you think are the main factors behind the disproportionate amount of AA/URM medical students entering primary care over specialties? I am a bit out of touch at my own institution as I took a 2 year LOA and so am not really connected with my own class, but I remember my former classmates, the blacks all went into FM, OB/GYN, peds, or psych. Interested in anybody's thoughts. I have more to say but don't want to go into too much detail if nobody is interested.

Yes, but this holds true across all races. The majority of most if not all Medical school graduating classes end up in primary care (IM, FM, peds, OB/GYN), which makes sense, since IM and Peds are avenues to an abundant amount of sub specialties and OB also offers 3. Compound that with the fact that AA/URM make up a minority of most Medical school classes, and you have your answer. Although I do understand there most probably are confounding factors (which we could spend eternity listing in order to sway the argumentative pendulum) , I believe this one hold the most weight.

Psych is not considered "primary care".
 
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But did you read the post? Maybe you were replying to sideways, but seems as if you were replying to Doctor4Life1769. If you were replying to sideways, I agree with you. However, Doctor4Life1769 seemed to be making a point contrary to how you took it. He stated he did not blame URMs for his not getting in (like so many other people have). The way he said it may not have been the most tactful, but that's how I took it. As a DO student myself I felt doubly insulted on this thread as one poster sought to marginalize URMs in healthcare and another inadvertently marginalized DOs to make a counter point (I understand it was not his intention).

To the original question; IMHO you have to look at the numbers in the AA subset. In total we make up a very small portion of the medical population and of that small portion AA males make up a drastically smaller portion. (AA male DO students make up less than 1% of all DO students) The vast majority of people I have spoken to have been AA females and the most say they chose Primary Care because they want to raise a family and be around for the children more. That's also the reason why I will choose a less demanding specialty when it comes time. So, while it can definitely be attributed to a lack of mentorship and encouragement, I feel as if a desire to have stable family lives also plays a part.

You need to read his statement again he said he didn't get into his state school because he knew as a fact that they were URMs with a 23-24 took his place. But he doesn't blame URMS entirely. And no one marginalized D.Os I just posted stats and emperical evidence.
 
Yes, but this holds true across all races. The majority of most if not all Medical school graduating classes end up in primary care (IM, FM, peds, OB/GYN), which makes sense, since IM and Peds are avenues to an abundant amount of sub specialties and OB also offers 3. Compound that with the fact that AA/URM make up a minority of most Medical school classes, and you have your answer. Although I do understand there most probably are confounding factors (which we could spend eternity listing in order to sway the argumentative pendulum) , I believe this one hold the most weight.

Psych is not considered "primary care".

Maybe we overestimate the difference because we are just a smaller number in general.

I have absolutely no facts to back this up but it seems even outside of primary care there are more AA's in specialties like GS and Ortho vs the ROAD specialties. Ortho is pretty damn competitive so I think it's something more than just smaller numbers and competitiveness.

Internal, Peds, and FM have significantly more spots than Anesthesia and Rads so the differences make sense. OB is a specialty that has numbers comparable to Anes and Rads but I feel like there are significantly more URM's in OB than either of those 2. Those fields also offer a comparable number of fellowships. Rads is more competitive but Anes and OB have similar competitiveness now.
 
Yes, but this holds true across all races. The majority of most if not all Medical school graduating classes end up in primary care (IM, FM, peds, OB/GYN), which makes sense, since IM and Peds are avenues to an abundant amount of sub specialties and OB also offers 3. Compound that with the fact that AA/URM make up a minority of most Medical school classes, and you have your answer. Although I do understand there most probably are confounding factors (which we could spend eternity listing in order to sway the argumentative pendulum) , I believe this one hold the most weight.

Psych is not considered "primary care".

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo. On multiple levels. There are not going to be a lot of minorities in specialties and subspecialties because there are not a lot of minorities in med school to begin with. Given the fact that most med students overwhelmingly do not choose a specialized residency (they may in fact, specialize later via fellowship) it makes logical sense that overwhelmingly most black med students will not enter a specialized residency.

A confounding factor that most probably don't consider is the gender distribution among black med students. The most recent data have black females applying at a 2:1 rate compared to black males (see here). And this 2:1 ratio continues to matriculation (see here). An aside, black males in med school should feel extremely privileged. If you break it down evenly by the 50 states, there are less than TEN black male allopathic doctors produced by state per year, LESS THAN TEN! (don't have the osteopathic data...and of course this is an even distribution not accounting for the fact that some states like NY will have a lot more than ten and a state like Alaska will have much less).

Anyway back on point. The most recent data (see here) shows that even though women are beginning to outnumber men in total doctors produced, women are overwhelmingly entering certain specialties over others...namely peds, OB/GYN, and family...so the gender distribution in fields like ortho and radiology hasn't changed tremendously. Now, apply this to black med students. Yes, more and more black students are matriculating med schools each year but these students are overwhelmingly female. As we know from the data females favor certain fields over others. This is anecdotal (but far from n=1), but of the black female med students that I came up with I'd say about 80% have gone into either peds, family, or OB/GYN. The reasons for this I believe are 1. As mentioned all females of all races overwhelmingly go into these fields 2. The sensitivity that black doctors have toward having a positive health effect on their communities (easier to do this as a ped or FP than say a radiologist) and 3. Emphasis on family and maneagable career-life balance (although many young black female doctors find themselves unmarried...a topic for the AA dating thread though).

Do scores play a role in self-selection? Of course. Black students on average score lower than their white counterparts on every single standardized test in this country. And of course, specialized residency programs tend to place a higher value on board scores than non-specialized programs. But, that emphasis is over-stated I believe by pre-meds and med students. Even the most competitive specialties like have "soft cutoffs"...there are plenty of people that interview for competitive residency spots without stratospheric board scores. More likely the cause for the self-selection in terms of overall applications to specialized fields are the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph as well as the lack of or presence of black faculty in certain fields. For example, I said about 80% of black females I know went into peds, FP, OB. Well the other 15% or so that went into a more specialized field had a mentor in that field that was black. That's why I've been a huge advocate for years for special consideration given to underrepresented populations in med school admissions and residency selection. Not necessarily outright AA, because I believe AA implies selecting under-qualified applicants over qualified applicant. But students are more likely to have interest in fields were there is at least one person there that looks like them.
 
Maybe we overestimate the difference because we are just a smaller number in general.

I have absolutely no facts to back this up but it seems even outside of primary care there are more AA's in specialties like GS and Ortho vs the ROAD specialties. Ortho is pretty damn competitive so I think it's something more than just smaller numbers and competitiveness.

That's why it's important to use data when possible (see here and here). Let's take your examples. The 2010 AAMC/ERAS data shows that the percentage of all ortho applicants that were black was ~8% and the percentage of all GS applicants that were black was ~11%. For radiology it's ~6%, ophto doesn't do ERAS/NRMP so I can't readily find the data, anesthesiology is ~10%, and derm is ~10%.

Ortho and radiology have low numbers for what I believe is an obvious reason. These fields historically have been male dominated. Since (see previous post) we know that there are much more black females than males, it makes sense that fields that are male dominated would not be frequented by black residents because there are not many black males to go around. GS has become an interesting field in the last decade or so. For one, GS has probably the widest competitive range. Some lower tier programs historically have gone unfilled (although as I understand this was not the case this year) while the upper tier programs are filled with the most competitive applicants in any specialty. As far as surgical fields, I agree it's the one surgical specialty where I've seen an uptick in black residents...especially black females. And for that matter, along with ENT, GS has enjoyed an uptick in female residents in general. I think this is due to the new work rules (makes it easier to start/have a family in residency) and the emergence of laparoscopic/MIS allowing surgeons to have an almost exclusively outpatient practice which equals more predictable schedule which makes it easier to have a family.
 
That's why it's important to use data when possible (see here and here). Let's take your examples. The 2010 AAMC/ERAS data shows that the percentage of all ortho applicants that were black was ~8% and the percentage of all GS applicants that were black was ~11%. For radiology it's ~6%, ophto doesn't do ERAS/NRMP so I can't readily find the data, anesthesiology is ~10%, and derm is ~10%.

Ortho and radiology have low numbers for what I believe is an obvious reason. These fields historically have been male dominated. Since (see previous post) we know that there are much more black females than males, it makes sense that fields that are male dominated would not be frequented by black residents because there are not many black males to go around. GS has become an interesting field in the last decade or so. For one, GS has probably the widest competitive range. Some lower tier programs historically have gone unfilled (although as I understand this was not the case this year) while the upper tier programs are filled with the most competitive applicants in any specialty. As far as surgical fields, I agree it's the one surgical specialty where I've seen an uptick in black residents...especially black females. And for that matter, along with ENT, GS has enjoyed an uptick in female residents in general. I think this is due to the new work rules (makes it easier to start/have a family in residency) and the emergence of laparoscopic/MIS allowing surgeons to have an almost exclusively outpatient practice which equals more predictable schedule which makes it easier to have a family.

Thanks for the links. Had no idea about them. An example of why anecdotal evidence can lead to wrong conclusions. I personally know quite a few AA's doing ortho but none doing rads (excluding people applying in my cycle) so I just generalized it.
 
Bingo. Bingo. Bingo. On multiple levels. There are not going to be a lot of minorities in specialties and subspecialties because there are not a lot of minorities in med school to begin with. Given the fact that most med students overwhelmingly do not choose a specialized residency (they may in fact, specialize later via fellowship) it makes logical sense that overwhelmingly most black med students will not enter a specialized residency.

A confounding factor that most probably don't consider is the gender distribution among black med students. The most recent data have black females applying at a 2:1 rate compared to black males (see here). And this 2:1 ratio continues to matriculation (see here). An aside, black males in med school should feel extremely privileged. If you break it down evenly by the 50 states, there are less than TEN black male allopathic doctors produced by state per year, LESS THAN TEN! (don't have the osteopathic data...and of course this is an even distribution not accounting for the fact that some states like NY will have a lot more than ten and a state like Alaska will have much less).

Anyway back on point. The most recent data (see here) shows that even though women are beginning to outnumber men in total doctors produced, women are overwhelmingly entering certain specialties over others...namely peds, OB/GYN, and family...so the gender distribution in fields like ortho and radiology hasn't changed tremendously. Now, apply this to black med students. Yes, more and more black students are matriculating med schools each year but these students are overwhelmingly female. As we know from the data females favor certain fields over others. This is anecdotal (but far from n=1), but of the black female med students that I came up with I'd say about 80% have gone into either peds, family, or OB/GYN. The reasons for this I believe are 1. As mentioned all females of all races overwhelmingly go into these fields 2. The sensitivity that black doctors have toward having a positive health effect on their communities (easier to do this as a ped or FP than say a radiologist) and 3. Emphasis on family and maneagable career-life balance (although many young black female doctors find themselves unmarried...a topic for the AA dating thread though).

Do scores play a role in self-selection? Of course. Black students on average score lower than their white counterparts on every single standardized test in this country. And of course, specialized residency programs tend to place a higher value on board scores than non-specialized programs. But, that emphasis is over-stated I believe by pre-meds and med students. Even the most competitive specialties like have "soft cutoffs"...there are plenty of people that interview for competitive residency spots without stratospheric board scores. More likely the cause for the self-selection in terms of overall applications to specialized fields are the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph as well as the lack of or presence of black faculty in certain fields. For example, I said about 80% of black females I know went into peds, FP, OB. Well the other 15% or so that went into a more specialized field had a mentor in that field that was black. That's why I've been a huge advocate for years for special consideration given to underrepresented populations in med school admissions and residency selection. Not necessarily outright AA, because I believe AA implies selecting under-qualified applicants over qualified applicant. But students are more likely to have interest in fields were there is at least one person there that looks like them.

Well said! you should come around these parts more often.
 
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Well said! you should come around these parts more often.

Thanks. Used to frequent more when this sub-forum was first created a few years back...mostly to participate in AA thread deathmatches. I lurk every once and awhile. Always great to see other folks of color doing positive things in medicine. 👍
 
If you break it down evenly by the 50 states, there are less than TEN black male allopathic doctors produced by state per year, LESS THAN TEN! (don't have the osteopathic data...and of course this is an even distribution not accounting for the fact that some states like NY will have a lot more than ten and a state like Alaska will have much less).

Especially considering the number of medical schools in Alaska.
 
Especially considering the number of medical schools in Alaska.

I meant to denote number of students' by state of origin not by state in which a med school is in. There are a few states that don't have any allopathic med schools.
 
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