US DO vs Caribbean MD

[Cristonda]

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I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?

 

[Bobby_Ray]

US MD >>> US DO >>>>>>>>>>> Caribbean MD.

Seriously, don’t go Caribbean. You will go into massive amounts of debt, are likely to not graduate, and even if you do graduate, the match rates are very poor so you have a high chance of graduating with a very expensive degree that you can’t even use. DO is a much safer and smarter route.

 

[paradoxic_toxic]

Go to Vegas with $300k. Play roulette and go all-in on black.

Caribbean schools in a nut shell.

 

[GreenDuck12]

DO- match rates are much higher

 

[Moko]

As others have said, go DO. In general, Caribbean schools prey on the desperate and naive. Their business model depends on it.

 

[Seihai]

As a word of note, OP has inexplicably cross-posted this thread in both the MD and DO forums.

US DO vs Caribbean MD

I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?

forums.studentdoctor.net

I think OP's gotten their answer across the two threads many times over now.

 

[Cristonda]

As a word of note, OP has inexplicably cross-posted this thread in both the MD and DO forums.

US DO vs Caribbean MD

I've been doing research and asking current MD and DO doctors and even current med students and I really don't know which route to go. Can anyone please help me by giving me some advice?

forums.studentdoctor.net

I think OP's gotten their answer across the two threads many times over now.

The reason I wanted to repost this is because I looked at other threads and they seemed a bit outdated

 

[Cristonda]

US MD >>> US DO >>>>>>>>>>> Caribbean MD.

Seriously, don’t go Caribbean. You will go into massive amounts of debt, are likely to not graduate, and even if you do graduate, the match rates are very poor so you have a high chance of graduating with a very expensive degree that you can’t even use. DO is a much safer and smarter route.

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

 

[Sephirakra]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

Paging @gonnif !

 

[imbesrs]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

Their match rates include people who failed to match previous cycle and then are lumped in with the data when they do match. Like 1 year 45 ppl may not match, then they match the next year with the 48 people who match normally and they call that 93/100 or 93%.

Just ****ty inflated data. US DO dont even question it lol

 

[Bobby_Ray]

SGU heavily adjusts their match statistics. I don't feel like writing out the whole basis of it but you can read how they do that here:

The 80% DO match rate is based on matching into ACGME accredited programs, when you include DO residency programs the total DO match rate is in the mid 90s and on par with most MD programs. Plenty of DO programs consistently have 100% match rates for example: OSU: Graduate Outcome Data | OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine | OSU Center for Health Sciences - Oklahoma State University, TCOM: Student Achievement - Students, MSUCOM: Outcomes - College of Osteopathic Medicine - Michigan State University

 

[Sephirakra]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

Actually, I'll save time by posting @gonnif's breakdown of SGU (he was responding to a Carib vs. Podiatry thread):

Some numbers i worked up on SGU just a few weeks ago below. BTW, i am a strong proponent of podiatry. You get to practice medicine, including surgery, lot of sports meds and diabetic work. And despite what premeds perceive, nobody cares if you are an MD, DO, or DPM. They know you by your speciality be it IM, neuro, feet or whatever. In the hospital you are doctor

Just an estimate from the numbers that SGU reports

1) Enrollment and Residency:
Enrollment, MCAT & GPA Statistics | SGU Medical School
SGU SOM reports just under 6300 total enrollment in an MD program. This would mean roughly that 1600 students a year are MS1-MS4 or approximately 800 students a term. (whether students are in a dual degree and/or take more than 4 years to graduate, on average, this number will remain about the same). Of these 75% are US citizens and 17% are US PR, so 87% total US. Additionally 11% of total enrollment are Canadian, though many . It is reasonable to say then that about 90% of entering Students (about 1450) would likely seek medical residency in USA. SGU Reports that 961 have “US Residencies in 2019.“ So what has happened to these 500 others?

2) Attrition:
https://www.aamc.org/system/files/r...tesandattritionratesofu.s.medicalstudents.pdf
From 1993-1994 through 2012-2013, more medical students left medical school for nonacademic than for academic reasons,... The total national attrition rate remained relatively stable at an average of 3.3% over those 20 years.

So US MD schools have a 3.3% attrition rate, meaning 96.7% ultimately earn their degree. For SGU, they report “6.1% attrition rate for the class entering in August of 2017.” Assuming, that this up to date, it would mean of our 1450 Anticipated US Residency bound students, 90 dropped out after the first 2 years, leaving at least 1360 to continue. Also with the way that SGU reports this, we cant tell if any took leaves, needed another year, dropped out later, etc. We can only speculate that fewer additional percent dropped out in years 3-4. For purposes of comparison, lets assume a conservative total attrition of 10% for any entering class. With a weaker overall class (MCAT average of 497, cGPA of 3.3, sGPA of 3.1), and living overseas, 10% would be very conservative. So about 1225 would be left in our US-bound residency cohort

3) Medical Residency:

Graduate Success | St. George's University
SGU proudly states that 961 graduates got placed(not matched) in residencies. Now placement means via NRMP, post-match SOAP, any pre-match positions, openings that occur during the cycle Looking at their data further, 935 were placed in US, with others in Canada, UK, and a few other countries. So of the estimated 1225 graduates who sought US residencies, 935 got a slot, or about 76%. SGU also reports that on average 29% get slots via non-match methods. That would mean 664 graduates matched. So of the estimate 1450 US-residency bound students who start SGU, only 664 or 46% matched into a residency slot. That increases to about 65% who get ANY residency slot.

In sum, assuming 10% class attrition, the “success rate” of SGU is at best is 65%

 

[Sleepingdoc]

This topic has been discussed before. Again google is a powerful tool.

 

[Cristonda]

This topic has been discussed before. Again google is a powerful tool.

Like I said before in the previous post, other posts weren't as recent (wanted something within the past year) so I wanted to hear from people who may be going through the same thing.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Like I said before in the previous post, other posts weren't as recent (wanted something within the past year) so I wanted to hear from people who may be going through the same thing.

The business model of Caribbean medical schools has not changed in the past year to justify a significant update, nor has the number of residency slots significantly increased. However, the number of seats in DO programs has increased, as has competition for existing seats in residency programs.

 

[Isoval]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

This is profoundly erroneous.

1) SGU (and other Caribbean schools) match a frighteningly high number of students into Transitional Year spots. This is not good. Although some residencies actually require this, matching a fourth or a third of your class into them is very telling.
2) Until recently. DO students could also apply for residency through the AOA match system. If a DO student matched in the AOA match, they would automatically be withdrawn (and, obviously, not match) in the ACGME (or NRMP) match.
3) SOAP exists, and DO schools usually end up placing over 95% of their classes into residency positions.

anecdotally, my DO school has an overall placement rate of 99% and has for a few years in a row. I’m not sure what the match is, but likely in the mid 90s.

 

[gonnif]

This is profoundly erroneous.

1) SGU (and other Caribbean schools) match a frighteningly high number of students into Transitional Year spots. This is not good. Although some residencies actually require this, matching a fourth or a third of your class into them is very telling.
2) Until recently. DO students could also apply for residency through the AOA match system. If a DO student matched in the AOA match, they would automatically be withdrawn (and, obviously, not match) in the ACGME (or NRMP) match.
3) SOAP exists, and DO schools usually end up placing over 95% of their classes into residency positions.

anecdotally, my DO school has an overall placement rate of 99% and has for a few years in a row. I’m not sure what the match is, but likely in the mid 90s.

The actual match works out to about 94%-95%. The overall match placement rate thru all systems in 2019 was 99.34%
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...cements-in-2019-matches.pdf?sfvrsn=3cd93c97_4

 

[Med Ed]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

Any medical school can have a 93% match rate if it dismisses virtually all of its risky students before M3. After taking their money, of course.

 

[gonnif]

Any medical school can have a 93% match rate if it dismisses virtually all of its risky students before M3. After taking their money, of course.

Just to reiterate my conclusions with analysis of data that SGU provided (reposted by @Sephirakra ):

1) SGU has a 93% placement rate and reports that 29% of these are non-match placements, so an under 65% match rate.
2) Looking at their enrollment, demographics and citizenship/PR of students, of the 1450 US-residency bound students who start M1, 935 got US residencies. So 65% who started, graduated and got ANY residency slot. With 29% of those placing doing so outside of match, this would mean 46% who start M1, graduate, actually match into a residency, which is HALF of any US MD/DO school.
3) While the question of preliminary / traditional / transitional residency slots should be explored, I do not have easy access to data to examine it. However, I do wonder how SGU can still have such a high non-match placement rate with the "all-in" policy of ACGME residency (ie all residency slots must be part of match; there is no "selective" prematch). I would speculate that since transitional / traditional slots aren't leading to direct board eligibility but rather to PGY2 programs that are, many of these slots have little or no certification oversight. In other words, prematch slots are truly "old-style" interns just hired to due the scut work at little pay.
4) I will also point out while the SOAP post match rate for US-MD is about 50%, US-IMG rate is something like 3%-4%. Very few IMGs who do not match get placed via SOAP.
5) Lastly, the business model of the off-shore schools take almost not financial risk in accepting unqualified students. The students pay by government loans which pay the school. If the student drops out or fails to get residency, the school has been paid. It is the student who has the debt

 

[getdown]

Like I said before in the previous post, other posts weren't as recent (wanted something within the past year) so I wanted to hear from people who may be going through the same thing.

My program will straight out not even consider an IMGs. At least DOs are given consideration. And my program is not alone in that sentiment of never interviewing IMGs. Why settle for an IMG when you have better candidates available out there?

 

[Goro]

The reason I wanted to repost this is because I looked at other threads and they seemed a bit outdated

The comments are still true.

The point isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they ‘d be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Bedevilled Ben or mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

Million $ Mistake

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

"Why didn't I Match?"

There seems to be a lot of discussion lately on this topic, including a lot of fear-mongering anecdotes with an undercurrent of innuendo that odds are you will necessarily fail if you go to the Caribbean. With that said, I'm sharing an article from the AMA's blog about why applicants/soon-to-be...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Goro]

Even if SGU residency match is 93%, DO being ~80%?

SGU and the other Carib schools are under no obligation to tell the truth about their stats.

TLDR: they lie.

 

[IMGASMD]

The reason I wanted to repost this is because I looked at other threads and they seemed a bit outdated

Nothing changed.

 

[imbesrs]

Nothing changed.

Actually things changed for the worse with this merger lol

 

[gonnif]

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done

 

[gonnif]

Actually things changed for the worse with this merger lol

While the merger is almost complete, there appears so far to be only minor impact to the placement rate of IMGs as a percentage of all placements. This is because even though DO placements have increased greatly, the number of traditional AOA/DO slots now under NRMP have increased as well. IMGs get aboyt 22%-24% of all pipeline GME slots. Until the merger is complete which will be this year or next, and we have a few years of data, it will be impossible to say what the true effect on IMGs will be

 

[gyngyn]

Closing. This thread can be followed here: US DO vs Caribbean MD