US Hospitals should interview US Citizens first

[Erica Lewinski]

---

Members do not see this ad.

US Hospitals should interview US Citizens first ... (instead of willing to be open for sponsoring visas from the get-go)!

If you are a USMLE-pass (both steps) and complete medical degree holder (graduate) and have applied to 50+ programs this season, but, have not received any interview calls yet, please reply to this thread. Thanks in advance.

 

[Oana]

Oh my God, she's back!

 

[PTP]

I am not in that situation but I'd aggree with you they should look at domestic students first...but what can you do?

 

[tofurious]

Erica, are you reapplying this year? I remember your story from last year, and I think most of us agree that you should have preference over the majority of FMGs/IMGs. I can't remember though if you are an US-IMG, whose situations are less clear in the whole USMG vs. FMG/IMG battle.

 

[paz5559]

Erica Lewinski]US Hospitals should interview US Citizens first ... (instead of willing to be open for sponsoring visas from the get-go)!

No, Erica is clearly WRONG. Medicine is a meritocracy, and protectionist policies would deny our country the best medical care. We benefit from brain-draining every other corner of the globe, but in order to create the best research, best clinicians, and best medical system, we can not limit the pool from which we choose future practicioners.

In addition, we all treat patients from a huge array of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. By erica's logic, we should do so with a homoginous physician pool? Hardly.

The same way programs should be color-blind, gender-blind, and sexual preference-blind, they should also be citizenship-blind, IMHO.

 

[DrIng]

I don't mean to be horrible but think about this situation.
If you have applied for over 50 programs and can't get a job then there must be something wrong.
There are a number of programs out there how don't encourage FMG's to apply, whetehr or not they're US citizens, look at their lists of residents some programs ahve never had a FMG so it's not the small number of places being taken by FMG's.
I'm sorry to say it but in the business world if you applied for over 50 jobs and couldn't get one they'd be saying there was either something drastically wrong with your application/interview technique or you were simply in the wrong field... People in this situation should be looking for help from employment consultants etc to get help with interviewing and applciation skills and making themselves stronger applicants not trying to reduce the competition a little... 🙂

 

[BellKicker]

Erica, are you reapplying this year? I remember your story from last year,

She's applying this year and posted her first posts a few months ago. Is time standing still down in Rochester or what? 😀

Erica, hang in there. People are cancelling interviews now. Keep calling programs and ask politely whether they have had a chance to review your application. I wouldn't be too agressive on the citizen-part. You just got your citizenship, right? Instead, talk about your family in the area etc. and why you like the program.

Hell, tell everyone who cares to listen about how it feels not to get a chance to show what you're worth.

 

[benjee]

No, Erica is clearly WRONG. Medicine is a meritocracy, and protectionist policies would deny our country the best medical care. We benefit from brain-draining every other corner of the globe, but in order to create the best research, best clinicians, and best medical system, we can not limit the pool from which we choose future practicioners.

In addition, we all treat patients from a huge array of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. By erica's logic, we should do so with a homoginous physician pool? Hardly.

The same way programs should be color-blind, gender-blind, and sexual preference-blind, they should also be citizenship-blind, IMHO.

PAZ5559, do you know all these residency programs are funded by the tax paid by US citizens/perm residents?They should be the priority for the training programs!!!!!!!!!!!Futhermore,those true FMGs may not be better than US IMGS or AMGs in quality. At least, perm residents/US citizens did not abandon US to serve other countries for more money!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kristing]

PAZ5559, do you know all these residency programs are funded by the tax paid by US citizens/perm residents?They should be the priority for the training programs!!!!!!!!!!!Futhermore,those true FMGs may not be better than US IMGS or AMGs in quality. At least, perm residents/US citizens did not abandon US to serve other countries for more money!!!!!!!!!!

umm... before you come up with such an inflammatory statement, you should provide some statistics and your source for them.

1. What is the percentage of FMGs who go back to their home countries?
2. How much do FMGs make in their home countries vs. in the US?

My understanding is that our system actually causes a brain drain in several other countries because FMGs choose to stay here.

 

[Finally M3]

K-K-K-K-ill this thread!

Kill it now! No good will come of it!

 

[paz5559]

PAZ5559, do you know all these residency programs are funded by the tax paid by US citizens/perm residents?They should be the priority for the training programs!!!!!!!!!!!Futhermore,those true FMGs may not be better than US IMGS or AMGs in quality. At least, perm residents/US citizens did not abandon US to serve other countries for more money!!!!!!!!!!

Benjee, we fund physicians in training to create the best healthcare system for the United States. this affects the entire population. The BEST, that is, not the most American. I would much prefer to be treated by a talented, bright, qualified foreign-born or foreign-schooled physician, rather than have someone who only got his residency BECAUSE of where his or her passport was issued.

Quotas (ie. putting US citizens in the front of the line) are a bad thing. Wanna be trained here? EARN it, don't just whine about it, or tell me it is somehow your right. That is protectionism, plain and simple. America is not a society based on class structure, we are a society built on the value of work, reaping what you sew, and being compensated based on the merits of your accomplishments.

Want to get a US residency? Get better grades, better board scores, or or do better research than your competition.

 

[Purifyer]

PAZ5559, do you know all these residency programs are funded by the tax paid by US citizens/perm residents?They should be the priority for the training programs!!!!!!!!!!!Futhermore,those true FMGs may not be better than US IMGS or AMGs in quality. At least, perm residents/US citizens did not abandon US to serve other countries for more money!!!!!!!!!!

I think medical students of rich parents should have priority!!!!!!!!!!! Their parents pay far more tax and hence their children deserve preferential treatment!

 

[MD'05]

I think medical students of rich parents should have priority!!!!!!!!!!! Their parents pay far more tax and hence their children deserve preferential treatment!

Please. The rich pay proportionally LESS in taxes. I know you must jest.

 

[MD'05]

Want to get a US residency? Get better grades, better board scores, or or do better research than your competition.

That is sage advice and there are some very excellent FMGs in American medicine today. However I am concerned just how committed FMGs are to the betterment of American society. I seldom see an FMG going out of his or her way to obtain ancilliary services for an impoverished patient. Many times they are critical of the person's choices in life and are just plain cruel to the patient.

I am also annoyed by the superior attitude many FMGs possess. The ones I work with constantly put down American educated students and the American Medical Education system.

Lastly, many may possess adequate English language skills, but they don't possess adequate communication skills. As with any language, there are non-verbal and cultural cues used in communicating in American English. I always must reiterate what was just communicated to be sure there is not an error in my understanding. I have also been told on more than one occassion by a patient, "it's so nice to have an American doctor." Many FMGs are offended by this, but the successful FMG is the one that is empathetic and not resentful of American's and the opportunities afforded to American society.

Maybe I am just having a bad educational experience, but I think excellent American healthcare can only be provided by Americans or FMGs that are committed to America and its culture and values.

 

[benjee]

Want to get a US residency? Get better grades, better board scores, or or do better research than your competition.

first of all, medicine is not just
about board scores,research.It also consists of ethics.You can see all those true FMGs who left their countries (which provided their medical education) and came to US for materialistic reasons.Do you think they can be responsible doctors while avoiding paying back duties to their own ppl back home ?Besides,this is not a fair competition between AMGs,USIMGs, and FMGs since those FMGs've already completed med.education or maybe residency in their home countries before taking steps/usmle .I personally believe US citizen/perm residents should be the priority for the training opportunity.

 

[paz5559]

first of all, medicine is not just
about board scores,research.It also consists of ethics.You can see all those true FMGs who left their countries (which provided their medical education) and came to US for materialistic reasons.Do you think they can be responsible doctors while avoiding paying back duties to their own ppl back home ?Besides,this is not a fair competition between AMGs,USIMGs, and FMGs since those FMGs've already completed med.education or maybe residency in their home countries before taking steps/usmle .I personally believe US citizen/perm residents should be the priority for the training opportunity.

I am sorry, remind me again - when, in your evaluation matrix, would you asses US citizens' motivations? By that I mean you are hypercritical of FMG's for looking out for their financial interests, or looking to better their social position. Would you subject US grads to the same tests? So anyone who is chosing a particular specialty becuase it potentially is lucrative, or who moves from a rural, underserved region to a metropolitan area also would be, of course, put lower on the rank list of all programs, regardless of where they wnet to med school, right? Or are you just setting up a double standard to disadvantage the FMG's?

Oh, and if someone is willing to repeat years of medical training for the opportunity to better both themselves and their skills, you want the system to disfavor their sacrifice, and instead give the advantage to the american grad based soley on where his or her passport was issued?

Merit-based is optimally how our system works. Yours is quota-based, protectionist, and (and I know I am gonna get heat for this) likely race-based rationale. You are welcome to your opinion, but I find it insensitive, self-serving, and just short of hate speech in its subtext.

 

[benjee]

By that I mean you are hypercritical of FMG's for looking out for their financial interests, or looking to better their social position.
Oh, and if someone is willing to repeat years of medical training for the opportunity to better both themselves and their skills, you want the system to disfavor their sacrifice, and instead give the advantage to the american grad based soley on where his or her passport was issued?While I am trying to expose the fact and you are saying this is hypercritical!!You find FMGs who are repeating med.training are making sacrifice instead of wasting resources (provided US tax payer).If they are that competent ,why would they go thru all these again(med. training) instead of going out and practice? Look , most of these Fmgs do not have students loans to pay unlike most US med. graduates who made sacrifice/contribution way before these Fmgs .When you say this is protectionism, well, I am not against these Fmgs to practice medicine in US.I just try to create a fair picture for those US/perm residents for training opportunities.

 

[Docgeorge]

Wait a sec, if I'm a PD and I get your info and you have mediocore grades, and passed the USMLE with 185, I should pick you over the forigen grad with great scores and a 250 USMLE?

 

[tic douloureux]

paz5559 - You are right on, my friend. Too bad admissions are not simply merit-based, however. The higher you go up, the more nepotism and other non-merit-based factors come into play.

 

[Idiopathic]

Wait a sec, if I'm a PD and I get your info and you have mediocore grades, and passed the USMLE with 185, I should pick you over the forigen grad with great scores and a 250 USMLE?

or what about the DO 😉

 

[Fermata]

or what about the DO 😉

You decided on a specialty yet dude?

 

[Idiopathic]

You decided on a specialty yet dude?

Hey!! This is hard.

😉

 

[Paulista]

The greatness of american medicine came from pioneering teachings of many foreign born and trained physicians....

I think tax payers would want dedicated and very best physicians not bunch of spoiled brats asking for preferential treatment because you are native.

In my career and training I interacted with many physicians...from a Brazilian born neurosurgeon who trained in Canada and he was full faculty in a world reknown hospital in NYC. Or Indian born double boarded trauma surgeon with vascular surgeon who have inspired me to work hard to care for patients.

I think we are to learn to see things from a broad perspective..sure nationalism is good...but Medicine as a field is broader than simple nationalism. We have to train the best...and if you are one of those then your ticket is secured but if you are lazy....and just asking for favoritism because of your birth certificate than you are living in a sad world....you would become bitter pretty soon...

Read some background information on american medicine then you would appreciate the important contributions made by many people from all walks of life...

 

[DrIng]

Probably a total aside to this thread but I was just thinking. It's funny how in the discussion of FMG's there is an assumption that they are a certain sort of person, i.e. often that they are someone from the third world who speaks English as a second language etc.
A couple of misconceptions that seem to be floating around-
1) That FMG's have abandoned their own country, many fmg's return to their own country and take the skills that they have gained back with them- thereby enriching the medical system in their own country with another perspective. Also, many FMG's who do come from third world countries send a decent amount of maney 'home' to help support their families there.
2) that it costs the US taxpayer to pay for residency training. Actually as I understand it most hospitals make money out of the labour of residents- it happens the world over, hospitals get funded at a much higher rate in terms of fee for service than they pay their staff (and I used to be an accountant so I do know what I'm talking about)
3) Sure the rish pay proportionally less tax but overall they pay more tax in total $$$
Have a great day.

 

[paz5559]

Probably a total aside to this thread but I was just thinking. It's funny how in the discussion of FMG's there is an assumption that they are a certain sort of person, i.e. often that they are someone from the third world who speaks English as a second language etc.
A couple of misconceptions that seem to be floating around-
1) That FMG's have abandoned their own country, many fmg's return to their own country and take the skills that they have gained back with them- thereby enriching the medical system in their own country with another perspective. Also, many FMG's who do come from third world countries send a decent amount of maney 'home' to help support their families there.
2) that it costs the US taxpayer to pay for residency training. Actually as I understand it most hospitals make money out of the labour of residents- it happens the world over, hospitals get funded at a much higher rate in terms of fee for service than they pay their staff (and I used to be an accountant so I do know what I'm talking about)
3) Sure the rish pay proportionally less tax but overall they pay more tax in total $$$
Have a great day.

The xenophobia and isolationism this thread advocates is reprehensible, unreasonable, nationalist, and racist. The protectionist, jingoist impusle advanced herein is based on priciples advocated by those who supported aparthied, segregation, and the KKK in the past. US first? Take a look at your own heritage - unless you are a Native American (ie. American Indian), some family member in your own past was once an imigrant too.

With that being said, your facts on points two and three are just plain wrong. Hospitals are paid by the federal government. It is that payment that "costs the taxpayers money". That hospitals then generate revenue from the work of residents in no way makes it cost the federal government any less to train residents.

Also, the fact that residents are clearly inefficient, and less productive than attendings, or even PA's or NP's, particularly when they are being taught, and not working. The feds reimburse hosptials BECAUSE of the aforementioned inefficiencies, and thus hospitals generally break even with residency training programs, and do not reap huge profits despite the sweatshop hours we used to (and in some instances still do) work on their behalf

3) I am not sure what this point was in reference to, or how it is relevant to medicine in general, or the general residency issues board in particular, but in the US at least, there is a graduated income tax. The rich pay both a higher percentage AND a higher total dollar amount of taxes. Are they more sophisticated in seeking out methods to diminish their tax burden? I have never seen datsa on this, but it would certainly be likely. But these incentives have been deemed by Congress to to foster enterprises in the public interest, and to encourage investment in areas which would not otherwise be as ecconomically enticing to those with disposable income.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Kill this thread. Also the rich pay a lot of money in taxes. What r u people talking about? We have a step tax system so the more $$$ you make the higher % you pay of that $ to the government!

 

[yankeeh8r]

This thread is so jingoistic it is ridiculous. Let's look at the person who started it in the first place. Someone who has categorically been going around this forum and spewing her anti-FMG rhetoric in almost every post she has made. Quite frankly, the bottom line is that merit should always matter more than other factors. Does it? It many instances it does, but in other cases it does not. Does that make nepotism, favoritism, etc. right? No. But, you have to understand the system and how the game is played. Some programs take FMGs. They take FMGs because they either want to be open to accepting the strongest available candidate for their residency position or just to fill their residency or a combination of both. Some places prefer not to bother with anyone who trained at a program outside the US (american or otherwise). And still others prefer to only deal with people coming from Top 10 institutions. Look, it's all dependent on the goals and preferences of the program/PDs/department chairs. That's life. Now, someone PLEASE KILL THIS THREAD.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Done. I try not to be too touchy on the subject (as an IMG myself) but when there is a great outcry (and of course the comments that we do nothing about these comments but immediately kill such about DOs) it must be done to please the masses.