US MD/PhD programs for Canadians

[Jfz]

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yea, i read the topic in the sticky but it wasn't extremely thorough

i have a few questions with regards to this. while i understand as a canadian at a canadian undergrad university my chances of getting into an MD/PhD program in the states are extremely small, how would they be affected if i were to transfer to a US university for my junior year. i have NO idea how immigration works so i assume if i went to the states for my last 2 years of undergrad i still wouldn't be considered a citizen...would my odds be changed at all though? is it something i should consider? what would i have to do to be considered equivalent to US applicants? get a citizenship? just do my junior and senior years of undergrad there on a student visa or w/e?

thanks

 

[john316]

Good question. I am in the same boat, a canadian citizen interestedin MD/PhD program. I would assume you chances would not alter greatly unless you have an american citizenship.

 

[nothingman]

I was in a somewhat similar situation as a Canadian citizen, but coming from a US undergrad. I believe the "US person" rules apply to US citizens and permanent residents (Green Card holders), and everyone else falls into the "international" category. If you come to the US to study as a Canadian, you will get an F-1 visa, which allows you unrestricted trips home (as a Canadian, different in other countries) and is fairly easy to live with. The main restriction is not being allowed to work outside your program. With current rules, it's almost impossible to get a greencard from a student visa.

As for undergrad institutions, I would imagine that large Canadian undergrad institutions (UToronto, McGill, UBC and the like) would be treated as "US" institutions at least in spirit since the curricula are similar. While our program (one of the larger MD-PhD programs in the US) on its website requires that applicants "have at least a year of sciences at a US institution," I'm pretty sure that last year we took a student directly from one of the above schools.

My advice would be to contact some of the places known to accept int'l applicants directly (see the list floating around on this forum, and email their MDPhD offices), and see if coming directly from a Canadian undergrad would be ok. If you get a substantial number of positive replies, I think you'd do better to finish your undergrad in Canada with good results, research experience, etc. than deal with the hassle and likely added costs of transferring to a US school.

Good luck!

 

[Treg]

If I were you, I would go to a Canadian medical school and then match to an academic Canadian residency program. Many of them will offer you the chance to do research as a resident in the Clinical Investigator Program. You can get a PhD in 3-4 years as a resident, and you get your residency salary along the way. You can also moonlight and make a lot of $$. The people I know that are doing this get around 100K+/year, and since it is considered 'research/fellowship income', it is almost entirely tax free. So if you did this at my institution, you would pay on average $11K/year for med school for tuition. Your grad school tuition would be covered by your PI. You would get great, contiguous clinical training through med school and the first part of residency, and then you would be able to pay off a lot of debt and get your PhD at the same time during residency. You would be doing research closer to when you are done with residency, so there wouldn't be a big gap in productivity (as opposed to doing the midstream PhD in a US MSTP). And Canadian grad school generally is more British, i.e. less courses, more time for research, less hoops i.e. GRE etc.

The MD/PhD option is uncommon in Canada, while the MSc or PhD during residency is much more common.

Treg

 

[john316]

Thanks Treg. Great advice. I do know that U of T, U of A, and UBC have MD/PhD programs though.

 

[Treg]

Thanks Treg. Great advice. I do know that U of T, U of A, and UBC have MD/PhD programs though.

Yes, they do, I am a trainee in one of those programs 😉 There is usually only 1-2 people in a class that do it though. There have also been people that take the time off to be a Rhodes Scholar in the middle of med school and thus get a DPhil in 3-4 years.

 

[Neuronix]

Are any of the Canadian programs giving full-funding to all students yet? I hear UToronto will offer full funding to the best students who have offers from the states, though the stipend is still much less than you would get in America.

 

[Treg]

Are any of the Canadian programs giving full-funding to all students yet? I hear UToronto will offer full funding to the best students who have offers from the states, though the stipend is still much less than you would get in America.

Good question, I am not sure. There are some great scholarships that will cover you straight through though, one is from the AHFMR (for students in Alberta) and there are some from the CIHR (Canada's NIH).

 

[nothingman]

Are any of the Canadian programs giving full-funding to all students yet? I hear UToronto will offer full funding to the best students who have offers from the states, though the stipend is still much less than you would get in America.

Back when I was applying, UofT had a special funding program with comparable or even slightly better money than most US MSTPs. Things may have changed since, however.

 

[bd4727]

MSTP T32 grants are restricted to US citizens. However, many schools with MSTPs also have a few slots funded by non-T32 money, such as local community donors, school funds, endowment, etc. This money can and often does go to non-US citizen MD/PhD students. You have to find these places, and yes your chances will be smaller simply because the number of these types of slots are quite small.

 

[Jfz]

Thanks for your replies so far guys. I have another question:

i've been browsing around this forum and have been reading about MSTP or whatever. if i understand correctly, US students get their entire education paid for by this?

as a canadian if i go to a school does it mean i have to pay my way through, and so i'll be in even more debt than just an MD program?

 

[Neuronix]

i've been browsing around this forum and have been reading about MSTP or whatever. if i understand correctly, US students get their entire education paid for by this?

Yes. You pay no tuition and are given a stipend (on the order of $22k-$29k) all through the program at most MD/PhD programs (MSTP or not) in America. I call this "full funding". Last time I checked, no program anywhere else in the world openly advertised this sort of financial benefit for MD/PhD students. It is always rumored and word-of-mouthed that some DO/PhD programs will do this or some Canadian programs will do this, but it is never simply stated on a website the same way it is in the USA.

Nevertheless, a PhD will ALWAYS come with funding. Nobody in biomedical science ever pays for a PhD. In a PhD program, most of the time you are a paid worker, much like an employee. Thus you will always earn a stipend. However, if you do take out loans for your first two years of medical school, you will earn interest on those loans while you are earning your PhD.

There is an intermediate condition I call "partial funding". These are other arrangements where your med school is paid for but you get no stipend or your last two years of med school are paid for but not your first two.

 

[Jfz]

Thanks Neuronix you've been really helpful. At this point i'm still unsure whether MD/PhD is a goal i want to go after. mainly because i've never done any research. i like the IDEA of doing research but who knows if it's something i'll actually enjoy.

As a freshman i'm having a hard time finding any opportunities at my university. I can't find any info on any research my professors are doing, and the only thing I've seen is in my biological laboratory building is a bulletin board message that is looking for 2nd year/3rd year/4th year science students for research. no love for the freshman. and i'm quite sure none of them are doing any biomedical research, as most research activity i hear talked about is related to fisheries and lakes, etc. This is probably the wrong place to post about this but maybe someone can offer some advice of how i should proceed.

 

[Neuronix]

As a freshman i'm having a hard time finding any opportunities at my university.

I always recommend just knocking on the doors of professors in the Biology department or associated school of medicine who do a lot of research. Send e-mails if you must. Many professors are happy to take undergraduates, but won't advertise it. Many will appreciate first year students because it means they have plenty of time to learn and be trained. Of course you won't be paid, not at first anyway, but tell them you're thinking about grad school and want to start doing research now. Look for things that are biomedically related, but in the worst case, do whatever research you possibly can.

This of course helps you even if you decide to do medical school later on, as it will give you a great extracirricular. Just be sure to keep the grades as high as possible. Don't ever sacrifice them!

 

[Treg]

Thanks Neuronix you've been really helpful. At this point i'm still unsure whether MD/PhD is a goal i want to go after. mainly because i've never done any research. i like the IDEA of doing research but who knows if it's something i'll actually enjoy.

As a freshman i'm having a hard time finding any opportunities at my university. I can't find any info on any research my professors are doing, and the only thing I've seen is in my biological laboratory building is a bulletin board message that is looking for 2nd year/3rd year/4th year science students for research. no love for the freshman. and i'm quite sure none of them are doing any biomedical research, as most research activity i hear talked about is related to fisheries and lakes, etc. This is probably the wrong place to post about this but maybe someone can offer some advice of how i should proceed.

Here is my Canadian perspective. If I were you, I would look on the websites for the departments you are interested in, and then read through the research profiles of people there. Then, I would email the PI about the possibility of a summer studentship. Most places will have an internal deadline in late January/early February to submit applications for extramural support, so it would be good to email some people now. You can expect to get $1300-1500/mo. I wouldn't look at message board postings, as many (especially well known etc) faculty wouldn't bother posting there. Also, the medical people are probably in the medical research buildings as opposed to the undergrad campus. If you are interested in medicine, I would try to find someone with a medical slant to their research, potentially someone that is an MD/PhD if possible. It helps in Canada to have an LOR from a clinician for your medical school app. Also, make sure you get top marks, as Canadian programs have very high expectations for GPA (like 3.8+ at my program).

Treg

 

[Jfz]

A search of my undergrad schools medical school got me a lengthy list of researchers, all saying Accepting Graduate students or nothing at all.

Would it be appropriate for me to post the schools list? i dont really care if anyone here knows who i am..

My biological sciences department got me a lot of results mainly about environmental biology, plant biology, etc. Not really things i'm interested in

 

[Treg]

Don't worry about whether or not they say they are taking summer students--most people don't bother to advertise it. If they say they are taking grad students, then they are really short of people and would probably love to have you. It can't hurt to email and see. I would look in the departments of medicine, immunology, and surgery to start with. The projects may seem very basic science-y but you are just looking to get some experience, and besides you have several summers ahead of you to check different things out 🙂

 

[Jfz]

Don't worry about whether or not they say they are taking summer students--most people don't bother to advertise it. If they say they are taking grad students, then they are really short of people and would probably love to have you. It can't hurt to email and see. I would look in the departments of medicine, immunology, and surgery to start with. The projects may seem very basic science-y but you are just looking to get some experience, and besides you have several summers ahead of you to check different things out 🙂

Oh so I should only email about summer? i was thinking of putting in some hours every week throughout my school year (but I guess summer makes more sense because if I email now i won't have any grades on my transcript)