USMLE Scores & Residency

[theunderdog]

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Maybe I'm posting in the wrong forum, but I can't find any threads correlating step 1 scores and whether students matched into their 1st choice or not.

If you get a low USMLE step 1 score (<200), how does that affect your chances for residency? Granted that I want to go into IM in NY.

I would be really appreciative if anyone can link me to related threads or provide any insight. Thanks guys.

 

[synapse lapse]

Here you go: http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[diosa428]

Maybe I'm posting in the wrong forum, but I can't find any threads correlating step 1 scores and whether students matched into their 1st choice or not.

If you get a low USMLE step 1 score (<200), how does that affect your chances for residency? Granted that I want to go into IM in NY.

I would be really appreciative if anyone can link me to related threads or provide any insight. Thanks guys.

I'm not sure if there is any info on this, but there is one problem with the answers that you'd get to this question - since applicants only rank places that they interview at, so (assuming first choice = #1 on rank list) matching at their "first choice" doesn't mean much. If you apply to every program that exists, and get one interview, that becomes your first choice.

These may be worthwhile sources for you: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

They contain some match data. The second one has more detailed info about particular specialties.

 

[theunderdog]

thanks for the replies guys.

 

[agranulocytosis]

Don't forget the SF match. Specialities like Ophtho, neurosurg and ENT will be on there, although neurosurg is gonna go through NRMP next year I think.

 

[RxnMan]

I actually ran a survey that tried to answer this question. You can find the results here.

 

[theunderdog]

I actually ran a survey that tried to answer this question. You can find the results here.

thanks RxnMan for the post. so i read the thumbnail correctly, i saw that 3 people had below 200 on usmle 1... and receiving between 5 to 15 offers. which means NO students with <200 usmle did not match?

thanks again.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Looks like a good excuse to post my usmle step 1 score chart:

 

[obiwan]

Looks like a good excuse to post my usmle step 1 score chart:

I'm surprised that pathology doesn't have higher scores... i mean they know every little detail there is to know about diseases it seems like

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Doesn't mean it's as competitive. Just because the field requires more or less knowledge doesn't mean the score must be higher. Lifestyle/pay/reimbursement plays a huge role. From this, it indicates that the elite scorers are going for more lifestyle/pay (again, just a trend, not necessarily the case for each student).

 

[diosa428]

thanks RxnMan for the post. so i read the thumbnail correctly, i saw that 3 people had below 200 on usmle 1... and receiving between 5 to 15 offers. which means NO students with <200 usmle did not match?

thanks again.

If you look at the charting outcomes data, it looks like approx 93% of people with <200 matched in internal medicine (not bad odds). In terms of getting into the program you want, perhaps you should ask in the internal medicine forum... the might have a better idea of how many programs you should apply to, etc.

 

[hsans23]

i think it depends on if you want to do a fellowship after IM, in which case you want to go to a university program, which is alot harder to match into than a community program (=buyers market for an american MD) which you would be happy to do if your plan was to be a general internist/hospitalist; or even some of the less-competitive fellowships i've seen people match into out of community programs.

but even with an average score you would probably be fine for the mid-tier IM programs university based, i have always been told just by virtue of being a US MD (which i'm assuming u are) you have such an advantage in IM.

so ya, if you are happy to do any IM program, no worries, if you want one of the better univ programs in NY that could be trickier, but what do I know really 🙂

 

[theunderdog]

i think it depends on if you want to do a fellowship after IM, in which case you want to go to a university program, which is alot harder to match into than a community program (=buyers market for an american MD) which you would be happy to do if your plan was to be a general internist/hospitalist; or even some of the less-competitive fellowships i've seen people match into out of community programs.

but even with an average score you would probably be fine for the mid-tier IM programs university based, i have always been told just by virtue of being a US MD (which i'm assuming u are) you have such an advantage in IM.

so ya, if you are happy to do any IM program, no worries, if you want one of the better univ programs in NY that could be trickier, but what do I know really 🙂

what's the difference between community medicine and regular IM?

 

[hsans23]

what's the difference between community medicine and regular IM?

Just whether the program is at a university, or not. It's the same thing, an IM residency, in three years. Just the difference between going to, say NYU or St Barnabas hospital's program. There are so many in NY though that I don't think you will have a problem! Anyhow, they're all IM programs but if you are hoping to do a competitive fellowship afterwards (like cardiology, GI, heme-onc, allergy/immuno, etc) it is pretty important to go to a program that is at a university. Those can be harder to get into. But I'm sure the people in the IM program will have much better info on this than I do.

 

[obiwan]

when it says categorical, what does that mean?

 

[agranulocytosis]

when it says categorical, what does that mean?

I think categorical vs preliminary refers to how long the residency is. A preliminary would only last for one year whereas a categorical would last for however long it would last for a regular residency, be it 4 years or whatever. I'm not 100% about this, but I think that the advanced residencies like orthopedic surgery require a preliminary year in general surgery, so if you match into ortho, you'd be matched into the PGY-2 year, but you'd need to secure a PGY-1 spot in general surgery before you start your ortho.

Anyone please feel free to correct me, this is just my understanding of the whole thing.

 

[g6pddfishnc]

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[theunderdog]

thanks guys for clarifying. clears up a lot!

 

[RxnMan]

thanks RxnMan for the post. so i read the thumbnail correctly, i saw that 3 people had below 200 on usmle 1... and receiving between 5 to 15 offers. which means NO students with <200 usmle did not match?

thanks again.

Of those that responded. I don't know how many folks with <200 decided not to participate. I'll tell you that there was one participant who had a 250+ score and did not match.

But this is data I took from SDN'ers going into EM. There's some selection bias (see the average scores), so I don't have too much data to populate the bottom end (which is probably the most important part).

The process here (I believe) is more of applying to places you will be able to match to.

 

[DrDre311]

Of those that responded. I don't know how many folks with <200 decided not to participate. I'll tell you that there was one participant who had a 250+ score and did not match.

But this is data I took from SDN'ers going into EM. There's some selection bias (see the average scores), so I don't have too much data to populate the bottom end (which is probably the most important part).

The process here (I believe) is more of applying to places you will be able to match to.

So that survey was only for EM applicants? And about the 250+ guy who didn't match--not exactly a rarity in PRS--just goes to show you that there's more to matching than a board score. If you don't interview well, or if you do something ******ed with your rank list out of arrogance, then you subject yourself to hosing on the part of the NRMP.

 

[MSKalltheway]

As a native NYer I feel the need to ask this question, since when I hear people not originally from there say "I want to go to NY", they are usually referring to 1) Manhattan alone or 2) NYC (5 boroughs). My apologies if you meant the whole state or are from there, but how much of NY is to be considered?

As prior posters pointed out, adding community progs on the list will significantly up the number of choices, and also being willing to go to places outside of Manhattan (the other boroughs and even Long Island or Westchester and Rockland counties-places just outside of the city but nearby) will also significantly up the numbers. Obviously including Buffalo, Albany and Rochester would do this as well.

The section of NY considered to be part of the "Tri-state" area plus Long Island has TONS of programs...an otherwise good applicant with good LORs, 3rd yr grades and is likeable should still be able to match. Basically with <200, if you are not very picky it shouldn't be a problem at all. Besides, one possibility would be to live in the city but use the subway to travel outside to work if living there was a priority. Again, I dont mean to offend if I made any incorrect assumptions!

 

[RxnMan]

So that survey was only for EM applicants?...

Yup. I know it doesn't exactly help the OP (who seems to be going for IM).

I was already planning on doing an update this year, but if I had some help, I could easily do it for other specialities.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Just whether the program is at a university, or not. It's the same thing, an IM residency, in three years. Just the difference between going to, say NYU or St Barnabas hospital's program. There are so many in NY though that I don't think you will have a problem! Anyhow, they're all IM programs but if you are hoping to do a competitive fellowship afterwards (like cardiology, GI, heme-onc, allergy/immuno, etc) it is pretty important to go to a program that is at a university. Those can be harder to get into. But I'm sure the people in the IM program will have much better info on this than I do.

Keep in mind that IM is the largest single specialty in terms of residency spots so this distinction between competitive/non-comp programs encompasses a huge scope.

The most competitive IM programs will be as hard to get as an Ortho/Ophtho/ENT spot. The least competitive community places will be far less selective than good FM programs. Compare this to say Ortho where any program is going to require good grades/scores/letters/etc.

Just wanted to point this out to make sure than no one was viewing Internal Medicine residency as monolithic.

 

[LJDHC05]

So that survey was only for EM applicants? And about the 250+ guy who didn't match--not exactly a rarity in PRS--just goes to show you that there's more to matching than a board score. If you don't interview well, or if you do something ******ed with your rank list out of arrogance, then you subject yourself to hosing on the part of the NRMP.

EM is a bit unique in that regard though. PD's tend to rank step 1 scores below clerkships (Surg/IM/Peds), EM rotations, SLOR's and Step 2's in their considerations of an applicant. There's a paper about it from the mid 90's floating around somewhere (probably a link off of the EMRA website).

That being said: you are not just your step 1 score...and if you screw it up there are ways to compensate for it. Conversely if you have a 250+ but suck it up on the wards, you're probably not going to do well in the match.

 

[DrDre311]

EM is a bit unique in that regard though. PD's tend to rank step 1 scores below clerkships (Surg/IM/Peds), EM rotations, SLOR's and Step 2's in their considerations of an applicant. There's a paper about it from the mid 90's floating around somewhere (probably a link off of the EMRA website).

That being said: you are not just your step 1 score...and if you screw it up there are ways to compensate for it. Conversely if you have a 250+ but suck it up on the wards, you're probably not going to do well in the match.

Most people who score that high on Step I probably don't suck it up on the wards. There are people who do, though--they're called douchebags. I will amend my previous statement and add being a douchebag to the list of things that vastly increase the likelihood of someone getting hosed by the Match.

RxnMan, if you just have a ton of time on your hands, you can go to www.plasticseducation.com and check the "Matched Applicant Statistics" forum for some info on people who have matched into integrated plastics in the past couple of years (separate threads for each year). It isn't a huge sample size, and some people are clearly bull****ting because not everyone can get their #1 choice in a specialty where programs taking 1-2 residents is the norm, but it might make for a fun exercise if you're bored and into numbers.

 

[RxnMan]

...I will amend my previous statement and add being a douchebag to the list of things that vastly increase the likelihood of someone getting hosed by the Match.

...RxnMan, if you just have a ton of time on your hands...

"spare time" What is this thing you speak of?

Thank you for the link. I'll take a look after my Step I prep.

 

[g6pddfishnc]

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