Vermont vs. Columbia

[Student189045]

Vermont:
Pros: Burlington has a nice vibe
1.5 hours closer to my family,
Cheaper cost of living
200 thousand dollar merit scholarship
They offer rotations in west palm beach which is sweet

Cons: Less prestigious, not sure how I feel about the full TBL style


Columbia:
Pros: It's Columbia
Not TBL
I have a desire to experience life in a big city

Cons: going to be at least 200 thousand dollars more debt
When I did a 3 day trip to NYC a few years ago I actually hated it, but I don't want to judge the entire city based on one trip

In all honesty my question is: is the prestige boost worth 200 thousand dollars and the risk that I actually dislike living in NYC

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[MrPooperScooper]

If you don’t like the city, then Columbia is going to be draining. Can you adapt? Sure. I think Vermont is a good school and it’s in an environment that you like. Plus, it’s cheap. You probably won’t be able to visit NYC before the April 31st deadline, so I think the safe bet is Vermont. However if you end up going with Columbia, your opportunities to land a great residency are going to be significantly higher.

 

[meronebib]

Any idea what specialty/ies you may be interested in?

 

[Student189045]

Any idea what specialty/ies you may be interested in?

Emergency med, ophthalmology, and oncology all interest me

 

[9blade]

This is a tough one. Are you planning on a career in academia? or do you want to spend all of your working time in clinic? I would lean towards going to Vermont if you don't really care about a career in academia. Also if you don't like NYC, Vermont might be better for you.

 

[MD34289403]

NYC is a tough city to live in. If you had a gut instinct that you didn't like it then it might not be worth it. Did you like the city when you interviewed? There are more opportunities in the city that people talk about, but there are also big frustrations about living there.

 

[Wolvvs]

What specifically did you hate about NYC when you visited?

 

[longhaul3]

NYC sucks, but you should not turn down a Columbia acceptance to go to Vermont unless you are sure you want to be a rural, non-academic internist something. EM is a quirky specialty that I am not very familiar with but if you want to do an academic IM fellowship or especially ophtho, you should go to Columbia.

 

[Norm_the_Moose]

Columbia seems like the clear choice here. It's an excellent school, especially if you are interested in more competitive residencies down the line. Those will pay the debt off themselves.

 

[mmchick]

NYC sucks, but you should not turn down a Columbia acceptance to go to Vermont unless you are sure you want to be a rural, non-academic internist something. EM is a quirky specialty that I am not very familiar with but if you want to do an academic IM fellowship or especially ophtho, you should go to Columbia.

There doesn't seem to be too much of a difference or rural-bummy skew set between the two to me.

 

[longhaul3]

There doesn't seem to be too much of a difference or rural-bummy skew set between the two to me.

This is kind of misleading. Where are the data from? There are some specialties missing that would show a huge difference between the two match lists. Columbia usually matches around 10 students in ophto, 5ish in neurosurgery, and 5-10 in urology every year, none of which I see on those lists.

Perhaps more importantly, the kinds of programs matched are not represented here. There's a big difference between the IM matches from Columbia and the IM matches from UVM. In the more popular specialties, the range of programs is great and can significantly affect your career trajectory.

That's why I say I would only choose UVM in this case if I were sure that I didn't want a high-powered academic career or a competitive subspecialty career. So a rural hospitalist, general pediatrician, etc. (it's not necessarily about the rural-ness). In that case, both schools are guaranteed to get you where you want to go, and given the scholarship, etc. I would definitely choose UVM. Otherwise the potential you get from Columbia would be too great to pass up.

 

[mmchick]

This is kind of misleading. Where are the data from?

MSAR 2020.

That's why I say I would only choose UVM in this case if I were sure that I didn't want a high-powered academic career or a competitive subspecialty career. So a rural hospitalist, general pediatrician, etc. (it's not necessarily about the rural-ness). In that case, both schools are guaranteed to get you where you want to go, and given the scholarship, etc. I would definitely choose UVM. Otherwise the potential you get from Columbia would be too great to pass up.

And this is exactly why I bother with gathering all this data to put here is the misconception that going to a public school in a rural area simply translates to bottom feeder general average residencies. It's just not true. Sure, everyone can agree that Columbia by far has greater matches and opportunities for more competitive placements/specialties.. but a quick look at UVM's match list will also show a good number of these "prestigious" placements as well (UWash, Yale, Tufts, Duke, Icahn, Dartmouth, etc.).

UVM Match List and Columbia Match List

You're probably right that if OP already knows they want a super competitive, top this or that specialty or academic career, Columbia would be an easier road. But to suggest that Vermont (or other schools with connotative public, non-T20 reputation) pigeonhole's one career to generic projections is quite misleading and based on generic presumption. Saving the 200-grand with open-mind towards a career in a competitive specialty at a top residency program is just as plausible of a choice as taking on the debt for the name and broader opportunity that comes with Columbia.

 

[longhaul3]

MSAR 2020.



And this is exactly why I bother with gathering all this data to put here is the misconception that going to a public school in a rural area simply translates to bottom feeder general average residencies. It's just not true. Sure, everyone can agree that Columbia by far has greater matches and opportunities for more competitive placements/specialties.. but a quick look at UVM's match list will also show a good number of these "prestigious" placements as well (UWash, Yale, Tufts, Duke, Icahn, Dartmouth, etc.).

UVM Match List and Columbia Match List

You're probably right that if OP already knows they want a super competitive, top this or that specialty or academic career, Columbia would be an easier road. But to suggest that Vermont (or other schools with connotative public, non-T20 reputation) pigeonhole's one career to generic projections is quite misleading and based on generic presumption. Saving the 200-grand with open-mind towards a career in a competitive specialty at a top residency program is just as plausible of a choice as taking on the debt for the name and broader opportunity that comes with Columbia.

I didn't say that at all. People match well from every school every year. I'm not saying state schools pigeonhole anyone. I would have no hesitation in going to Vermont and hoping for a competitive match if it were my only acceptance, but I wouldn't bet $200k on it.

The question is not "what can you do as a UVM graduate;" it's "given both of these acceptances, which one would you pick?" My answer was that, unless I had already pigeonholed myself into a career that doesn't require a competitive residency or fellowship, I would not choose UVM. The most impressive matches on the UVM list are average at Columbia.

To me, the more prevalent and unfortunate misconception is that the average student at a typical state MD school like UVM or Penn State or whatever is likely match into a highly competitive program through sheer effort and determination. That is sadly not true. Not everyone can be the one person a year who matches into a top ortho program. Meanwhile, competitive matches are the default at the top 10ish medical schools. Again, depending on how open-minded you are about choice of specialty and career, that is probably not worth a $200k gamble.

 

[mmchick]

I would have no hesitation in going to Vermont and hoping for a competitive match if it were my only acceptance, but I wouldn't bet $200k on it.

Super convincing that you would have no hesitation going if it were your only acceptance, doesn't show your massive bias in this discussion whatsoever.

I'm not saying state schools pigeonhole anyone.

My answer was that, unless I had already pigeonholed myself into a career that doesn't require a competitive residency or fellowship, I would not choose UVM.

The direct contradiction is uncanny.

I'm not sure, again, where you're getting these ominous ideas about state schools. I don't see much of a significant difference between the amount of students that get into competitive specialties with a state school (ortho, UVM: 4, Columbia: 5) or "average-ness" of competitive placements at UVM compared to those at Columbia - again, with the understood fact that the skew is definitely greater for Columbia, the placements are quite comparable (lots of the same places listed throughout the entire lists of both: Icahn, Duke, Boston-affiliates, UWash, etc.)

The data is there. OP has everything they need at their disposal to make an informed, objective, and non-biased decision on what makes the most sense for them with a considerable future career in both options. People have their biases about how they feel about prestige and reputation and unfortunately there isn't much to say that can so immediately change that.

Good on you OP for having such a decision!

 

[longhaul3]

Super convincing that you would have no hesitation going if it were your only acceptance, doesn't show your massive bias in this discussion whatsoever.

The direct contradiction is uncanny.

I'm not sure, again, where you're getting these ominous ideas about state schools. I don't see much of a significant difference between the amount of students that get into competitive specialties with a state school (ortho, UVM: 4, Columbia: 5) or "average-ness" of competitive placements at UVM compared to those at Columbia - again, with the understood fact that the skew is definitely greater for Columbia, the placements are quite comparable (lots of the same places listed throughout the entire lists of both: Icahn, Duke, Boston-affiliates, UWash, etc.)

The data is there. OP has everything they need at their disposal to make an informed, objective, and non-biased decision on what makes the most sense for them with a considerable future career in both options. People have their biases about how they feel about prestige and reputation and unfortunately there isn't much to say that can so immediately change that.

Good on you OP for having such a decision!

I don't see why this turned so adversarial. No need for the sarcasm.

I made that first point because the goalposts were moved. Nobody said that you can't match XYZ from a state school. Because you again reframed the argument as a knock on state schools, I just wanted to acknowledge that and include a reminder that I was addressing the question at hand in this particular discussion, which, again, was not "where can you match from UVM."

Re: "pigeonholing," I think you misunderstood or misread my point. In fact it is not contradictory; I specifically said if I pigeonholed myself before making this decision, then UVM would be a clear choice because both schools would provide an equal opportunity.

Lastly, the specific program matches are not at all comparable within specialties, though this is not really the main point of my answer to OP.

 

[meronebib]

I’ll give the tldr: yes, you can match into a competitive specialty, even into Harvard, from UVM. Yes, it will be much easier to do that from Columbia.

 

[teatimepanda]

A lot of people are able to pick Columbia easily because of its financial aid. If you don't qualify for any, then it makes sense to attend UVM instead. Vermont is a wonderful school that cares a lot about its students in a beautiful deep-New England setting.

As mentioned above, medicine isn't a total prestige gridlock, but the name game is influential—you're going to have to do some soul-searching about what matters to you here. For some people a big tuition doesn't matter because they know that an ivory tower diploma and what it signifies is what wakes them up in the morning. Some of them love the extended school community and others are a little more ruthless. What kind of person are you? Deep in your soul, what's most important: family, being close to the outdoors, being plugged into cultural attractions, financial security? In fact, one big point to pin down is what annoys you the most, as weird as it sounds to say. Will you get restless in a smaller city that's very white and homespun, or are you going to bristle every time someone makes a Manhattan-style "center of the world" remark? Are you going to resent the high cost of an education, or will you resent having passed up a missed opportunity? That isn't meant as a rhetorical question. I think those answers truly depend on what you value most.

Feel free to PM me. I was accepted to UVM, put my down my deposit while looking up Burlington apartments, and then got into Columbia off the waitlist. I went to Columbia for a few reasons (one being a better price tag), but both of them are amazing (very different) schools.