Veterinary Pathology...yet again.

[pulseczar]

Hi all, yes I'm starting another Vet Patho thread, and yep, I've read all the previous threads on vet patho. 🙂

I'm a vet student at an Australian university, and am interested in a career in vet path when I graduate next year.

I'm hoping to get some advice about the pros and cons between Anatomical and Clinical Path as I find both fields equally interesting, but I'd rather be in the field with more opportunities. I'm leaning towards AP due to my other area of interest, Lab Animal Med, but Clin Path is fascinating. WTF, any advice? 🙂

Also, any recommendations on a good US or UK university to do my final year elective rotation at?

Thanks!!

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi pulseczar!

Where in Australia are you? John Mackie is a pathologist that I know down there - really nice guy who may be able to be helpful. I think he still works at the Gribbles diagnostic lab or a related one in Brisbane. He went to the U of Queensland, I think.

I'd say it depends on how research-focused you want to be. Getting a PhD in addition to residency is pretty much the norm in anatomic pathology now, less so with clin path. The reason being that most jobs right now are in academia or for higher-up positions in industry - diagnostic jobs are hard to come by. Clin path has a little bit more diagnostic-only opportunity in that respect.

However, if you're into lab animal, I think anatomic would be a little be more suited to you. There are some residencies in particular that have a heavy lab animal focus (Johns Hopkins, Wake Forest, etc). If you can get to MD or NC, those might be great places to rotate at.

 

[pulseczar]

hey WTF, thanks for the advice.

I'm at U of Queensland. I did a quick google on John Mackie and he's started his own lab service with a partner. Is he open to having students on externships? I emailed Gribbles and they aren't taking students.

I'm not sure if I'm really keen on getting a PhD. My interest is definitely on the diagnostics, the case studying so to speak. My ideal position, other than a pure lab animal one, would be to be a pathologist at a vet school, combining teaching with diagnostic work.

By MD, do you mean Virginia-Maryland? I have a friend doing an immunology PhD there so that might be a good place for me to try to complete a rotation at!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

hey WTF, thanks for the advice.

I'm at U of Queensland. I did a quick google on John Mackie and he's started his own lab service with a partner. Is he open to having students on externships? I emailed Gribbles and they aren't taking students.

I'm not sure if I'm really keen on getting a PhD. My interest is definitely on the diagnostics, the case studying so to speak. My ideal position, other than a pure lab animal one, would be to be a pathologist at a vet school, combining teaching with diagnostic work.

By MD, do you mean Virginia-Maryland? I have a friend doing an immunology PhD there so that might be a good place for me to try to complete a rotation at!

MD is where John's Hopkins is - Virginia-Maryland is actually located in Virginia. I went to vet school there and will be coming back in the fall for PhD/fellowship 🙂. Is he doing his PhD in MD or down at the main campus?


Well, if you want to be a pathologist at a vet school (and I know, because that is my own goal as well!) a PhD is almost necessary in addition to residency. That's why I'm going on to do one after residency.

I'll PM you and you can give him my name directly 🙂

I personally have my own gripes about it (I do like research, but don't think having more letters after your name automatically makes you a better teacher) but I understand that academia is very research focused and want people that could potentially bring in grant money, even if your position is mostly teaching/diagnostics. If you look at the faculty list of most vet schools, the pathologists (and many of the other clinical faculty) almost all have PhDs in addition to board certification. This may not be the case in Australia if you were thinking of moving back afterwards; I have seen a few entry level lecturer/prof positions there that don't seem to require one.

 

[pulseczar]

My friend is doing her PhD at Virginia Tech. I got a bit confused between VMRC and Virginia Tech! Quite a unique set up for a vet school 🙂

What's your opinion on the differences between DACVP, the DECVP, the FRCPath and the aussie Fellowship equivalent? Is the american diplomate decidely a better qualification and the most globally mobile one? I'm sure lots of other factors come into play, but I do get the general feeling the american diplomate is the gold standard for specialist qualification. I see myself working in either Australia, the UK or Asia long term, perhaps it might be better for me to pursue a british or european qualification?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

My friend is doing her PhD at Virginia Tech. I got a bit confused between VMRC and Virginia Tech! Quite a unique set up for a vet school 🙂

What's your opinion on the differences between DACVP, the DECVP, the FRCPath and the aussie Fellowship equivalent? Is the american diplomate decidely a better qualification and the most globally mobile one? I'm sure lots of other factors come into play, but I do get the general feeling the american diplomate is the gold standard for specialist qualification. I see myself working in either Australia, the UK or Asia long term, perhaps it might be better for me to pursue a british or european qualification?

Yes, the main campus of the vet school is at Virginia Tech. The campus up in Maryland is mostly extra research and public/corporate type stuff. It's confusing, especially with the ridiculously long name! VMRCVM pretty much is part of Virginia Tech, just a different name.

I really don't know much of the differences between the certifications, so I can't help you there 🙁 Sorry! I agree that I'd guess that the DACVP is the most internationally mobile certification, but I can't say for sure.

 

[sunshinevet]

My friend is doing her PhD at Virginia Tech. I got a bit confused between VMRC and Virginia Tech! Quite a unique set up for a vet school 🙂

What's your opinion on the differences between DACVP, the DECVP, the FRCPath and the aussie Fellowship equivalent? Is the american diplomate decidely a better qualification and the most globally mobile one? I'm sure lots of other factors come into play, but I do get the general feeling the american diplomate is the gold standard for specialist qualification. I see myself working in either Australia, the UK or Asia long term, perhaps it might be better for me to pursue a british or european qualification?

Hi,
Although I don't have a specific interest in pathology, we did have a pathologist come and speak to us on our 5th year pathology rotation. She is the pathologist who set up vetpath (basically WA's gribbles) and she strongly recommended anyone who was interested in pursuing further education to go overseas. She said the fellowship qualification here in Aus isnt very well standardised or supported and very few places offer the training. I think the opportunity for training is also only going to decrease here in Aus, as many universities are closing their pathology divisions due to lack of profits and it being cheaper to send their tests out. (Mainly clinical).

 

[pulseczar]

Thanks for that Sunshine. The programs in the US and UK are definitely more structured and established. It's increasingly becoming a sad state of affairs for veterinary science in Aus evidently. 🙁

 

[mumin]

heya, i currently just finished my first year of vet school and i am also interested in pursuing a residency in anatomic veterinary pathology after graduation.

from what i read from the various posts in the forum, i gathered that path-related research, externships and rotations during vet school will look favorable on my application to a residency program.

Just a few questions here:

1) How difficult/competitive is it exactly to get into a vet path residency program in the US (or UK)? What are the selection committee looking out for really?

2) Looking at how anatomic path programs are tied with PhD program, is research at veterinary school a very important prerequisite? I am struggling whether to arrange research next summer, as it will take a long period of time, and I do not want forfeit my time doing other veterinary clinical/path related stuff.

3) Any other suggestions?

Thanks a million! 🙂

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

heya, i currently just finished my first year of vet school and i am also interested in pursuing a residency in anatomic veterinary pathology after graduation.

from what i read from the various posts in the forum, i gathered that path-related research, externships and rotations during vet school will look favorable on my application to a residency program.

Just a few questions here:

1) How difficult/competitive is it exactly to get into a vet path residency program in the US (or UK)? What are the selection committee looking out for really?

2) Looking at how anatomic path programs are tied with PhD program, is research at veterinary school a very important prerequisite? I am struggling whether to arrange research next summer, as it will take a long period of time, and I do not want forfeit my time doing other veterinary clinical/path related stuff.

3) Any other suggestions?

Thanks a million! 🙂

Pretty competitive. At our program (in the US) there are anywhere from 30 to 50 applicants (both international and native) per spot depending on the year.

Things that they are looking for:

1) Proving you are dedicated to the field. This includes externships, pathology elective classes, jobs, etc. Just getting good grades won't cut it - you need to prove to them you want to do pathology specifically.
2) Grades (as with all residencies). Although, with a few exceptions, path programs tend to take a "whole applicant approach" - they don't just look at numbers.
3) Good letters of recommendation - pathology is a small field and everyone knows everyone - if you can get letters from important people, it will really help you. Mine were from a double-boarded pathologist (anatomic and clinical), the senior associate dean of research for the vet school, and my PI from my NIH project.
4) People with research potential, since many programs are combined now. This may include summer projects, part-time lab work, publications, etc.

For anatomic pathology specifically, I would say research experience, especially for a combined program, is HUGE. That isn't to say that people can get into one without it, but it will definitely be a feather in your cap.

Here's what I did

Throughout college: Research with chemistry division for Navy (as civilian student, over summers and breaks). BS in Biochemisty.

Summer before vet school: Research with wildlife department.

During first year: Did part time admin/filing work with the anatomic pathology department, got to know pathologists. Worked on weekends and any free afternoon as a lab animal care technician.

Summer after first year: Externship at Wake Forest Comparative Medicine/Pathology dpt working with their monkey studies

During second year and third year: Worked as an after-hours/emergency clinical pathology technician during school year and on weekends. Took any pathology elective I could find, be is clinical or anatomic.

Summer after second year: NIH T35 summer research program, independent research project with lupus and nutrition

During fourth year: Used elective blocks to set up anatomic pathology and research-specific rotations.

I was a busy little bee. My vet school grades were mediocre (I was never that good of a classroom learner), but I managed to prove myself by doing all the things above.

 

[pulseczar]

Pretty competitive. At our program (in the US) there are anywhere from 30 to 50 applicants (both international and native) per spot depending on the year.

Things that they are looking for:

1) Proving you are dedicated to the field. This includes externships, pathology elective classes, jobs, etc. Just getting good grades won't cut it - you need to prove to them you want to do pathology specifically.
2) Grades (as with all residencies). Although, with a few exceptions, path programs tend to take a "whole applicant approach" - they don't just look at numbers.
3) Good letters of recommendation - pathology is a small field and everyone knows everyone - if you can get letters from important people, it will really help you. Mine were from a double-boarded pathologist (anatomic and clinical), the senior associate dean of research for the vet school, and my PI from my NIH project.
4) People with research potential, since many programs are combined now. This may include summer projects, part-time lab work, publications, etc.

For anatomic pathology specifically, I would say research experience, especially for a combined program, is HUGE. That isn't to say that people can get into one without it, but it will definitely be a feather in your cap.

Here's what I did

Throughout college: Research with chemistry division for Navy (as civilian student, over summers and breaks). BS in Biochemisty.

Summer before vet school: Research with wildlife department.

During first year: Did part time admin/filing work with the anatomic pathology department, got to know pathologists. Worked on weekends and any free afternoon as a lab animal care technician.

Summer after first year: Externship at Wake Forest Comparative Medicine/Pathology dpt working with their monkey studies

During second year and third year: Worked as an after-hours/emergency clinical pathology technician during school year and on weekends. Took any pathology elective I could find, be is clinical or anatomic.

Summer after second year: NIH T35 summer research program, independent research project with lupus and nutrition

During fourth year: Used elective blocks to set up anatomic pathology and research-specific rotations.

I was a busy little bee. My vet school grades were mediocre (I was never that good of a classroom learner), but I managed to prove myself by doing all the things above.

😱....and 😱 again.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

😱....and 😱 again.

The working wasn't that insane during the school year...I probably did 10hrs a week at any given time, 20 absolute max when I pulled weekend shifts. I also got pretty lucky that positions just happened to be available. The only rough one was the on-call clin path one...more than once I was called in for emergency bloodwork at 2 or 3am the morning before an exam!

It was summer where I really got stuff done that shined on the application - make sure to take advantage of them if at all possible.

Remember that everything balances. I am sure there are people who got residencies who has less "extracurricular" experience, but perhaps much better grades. For me, all that work was essential because my GPA was on the low end for residency (a little under 3.0) and I had to prove I was capable in other ways.

 

[mumin]

can't thanks you enough for the awesome post!

 

[Saffine]

Does anyone know the dropout rate for residencies?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Does anyone know the dropout rate for residencies?

It depends on the institution and funding, but overall very low. Residency is even harder than vet school IMO, but most people are too dedicated (or bull-headed, haha) to drop out. I've been here three years and haven't seen a resident in ANY discipline here drop out.

 

[Animalis]

Not to hijack a thread, but I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding the U.S. military's residency programs and PhD offerings? I'm also very interested in specializing in pathology after graduation. I apologize to the original poster who I see is Australian, but there seems to be a few knowledgable posters already here.

According to the U.S. Army Medical Department - Veterinary Corps' website, the military offers a residency in veterinary pathology at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. It states that Veterinary Corps officers "may apply" for such a position which leads me to believe it may be as competitive as the AVMA's civilian programs? Any and all information is appreciated.

 

[Bill59]

It depends on the institution and funding, but overall very low. Residency is even harder than vet school IMO, but most people are too dedicated (or bull-headed, haha) to drop out. I've been here three years and haven't seen a resident in ANY discipline here drop out.

I also haven't seen a resident drop out of any discipline. I've seen a few get dismissed for poor performance. And I know of a few that had to stop their residency when their mentor left, couldn't bring the resident and there were no other qualified mentors at the program. They were all able to eventually finish up somewhere else.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Not to hijack a thread, but I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding the U.S. military's residency programs and PhD offerings? I'm also very interested in specializing in pathology after graduation. I apologize to the original poster who I see is Australian, but there seems to be a few knowledgable posters already here.

According to the U.S. Army Medical Department - Veterinary Corps' website, the military offers a residency in veterinary pathology at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. It states that Veterinary Corps officers "may apply" for such a position which leads me to believe it may be as competitive as the AVMA's civilian programs? Any and all information is appreciated.

Hey - if you want to know about AFIP and pathology, get in touch with Bruce Williams if you can. I have met several people from their program and they are worked pretty hard but are very smart. Bruce runs a lot of our pathology-related conferences via CL Davis Foundation and is still involved with AFIP (now JPC) as far as I know.

The only problem with it is that you are required to perform service before being admitted to the residency (although this may have changed) - usually 2-3 years as a general practitioner on a base for pets and working dogs and such, and then a year abroad. Are you currently in the Corps program?

 

[Caseous]

Hey guys!
I'm working on my statement of career goals/ professional interests for veterinary pathology residencies and wanted to see if anybody had any advice on what schools are looking for. My main points are explaining why I am interested in pursuing veterinary pathology, any relevant experiences and what I hope to achieve during a residency. I don't have anything very exciting or profound to write about and I'm concerned that it may be too boring!
I would be so grateful for any advice. Thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey guys!
I'm working on my statement of career goals/ professional interests for veterinary pathology residencies and wanted to see if anybody had any advice on what schools are looking for. My main points are explaining why I am interested in pursuing veterinary pathology, any relevant experiences and what I hope to achieve during a residency. I don't have anything very exciting or profound to write about and I'm concerned that it may be too boring!
I would be so grateful for any advice. Thanks!

Hi 🙂

I'd be happy to give your letter a read over and make suggestions if you'd like.

Are you applying for this coming cycle to start July 1? If you are, you better get everything in fast. You should have everything in by the end of October if at all possible. I know many programs say their deadline is December 1, but trust me - they usually have everybody picked by then and just wait until the formal deadline to make offers.

Some quick tips are

1) Concentrate on highlighting your experiences in path that you have gone out of your way to do - electives, externships, jobs, etc. This proves to them that you are serious about it and have been following an organized road (or at least shown some dedication to the field. Pathology is a very insular specialty and it is hard to get in the circle of trust unless you've shown you want it p😉 Just getting As in your path classes isn't enough.

2) If you have any research experience or interest in it - definitely mention it and talk about how you plan to apply it. Most, if not all pathology residencies now are combined programs (anatomic at least - or are you going clin path?). They want people who will go for the PhD afterwards, not only for the programs rep but because it's getting near impossible to get a job as a pathologist in academia without a PhD in addition. Industry is a little better, but not by much. And diagnostic lab jobs are still like needles in haystacks.

3) Visit places as much as you can. Almost every one of the residents we acquired every year had visited for 1-2 weeks, Like I said, pathology is really insular. Not that we are man - on the contrary, pathology peeps are some of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met - but we don't put up with BS like some other specialties do. No one wants to work with someone who has a full-of-themselves attitude. You may get away with it in surgery, but you won't on the necropsy floor. Present yourself as friendly and interested as possible without being overbearing. We're introverts yanno 😉

You can always shoot me a PM too. I just completed a residency in anatomic pathology and am working on my PhD.

 

[mumin]

Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions for great places for veterinary pathology externships, from your own experience or from what you have probably heard of. I am thinking more of diagnostic laboratories that deal with most domestic species (large and small), with a sprinkle of exotics/aquatics cases. I know there is a list on ACVP webpage, but would just like to seek some personal advice and opinions. Thanks 🙂

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions for great places for veterinary pathology externships, from your own experience or from what you have probably heard of. I am thinking more of diagnostic laboratories that deal with most domestic species (large and small), with a sprinkle of exotics/aquatics cases. I know there is a list on ACVP webpage, but would just like to seek some personal advice and opinions. Thanks 🙂

Well, I can vouch for Texas A&M - we have externs all the time. The caseload is mostly horses, dogs, cats, some cows, sheep, goats, and a pretty good proportion of exotics/wildlife. TVMDL, which is the state diagnostic lab right across the street, gets a slightly higher percentage of food animals, I think. When I was a fourth year at VMRCVM I rotated at Purdue's ADDL - not many exotics, but very nice and helpful people.

 

[zpsid91]

Hey WTF, Are you going to be at ACVP in Montreal this November? I'm at Ross right now, but trying to decide which US school is the best for my clinical year and residency! I would love to pick our brain if you will be there 🙂 Thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey WTF, Are you going to be at ACVP in Montreal this November? I'm at Ross right now, but trying to decide which US school is the best for my clinical year and residency! I would love to pick our brain if you will be there 🙂 Thanks!

Sadly, I don't think so 🙁 I just got back from the 2013 AAVLD meeting in California and I don't think I can pony up the cash to go to ACVP this year as well. But I'm always around via PM or email to chat 🙂

 

[mumin]

Revisiting this post after all this while.

Due to various circumstances, I have chosen to work as a municipal shelter veterinarian with public health roles (disease surveillance and control e.g. rabies, AI, lepto). I've been enjoying the job, but I still think of eventually doing a residency in (anatomic) pathology after a few more years exploring veterinary public health. I've done a few anatomic pathology externships during vet school and absolutely loved it -- the constant learning, looking at slides etc. My ideal is to become a pathologist with a special interest in veterinary public health.

I've read a couple of other posts on vet path and noted that research experience would be increasingly important for application to a residency program. However I've had little research experience (e.g. lab research) during vet school. A lot of the things I do now in my current job involve on-the-job training in epidemiology and other public health subjects (e.g. zoonoses) but not necessarily research per se.

I'm considering a part-time master's program which I can read while working, primarily to 1) provide an academic perspective to my current job; 2) add value to my application to an anatomic pathology residency in the future e.g. gaining research experience, and 3) really just to learn more (with the financial considerations in mind). I've looked at a gamut of programs and am particularly interested in a MPH-like program.

Would like to seek advice for someone who wishes to "re-enter" pathology following a few years in other areas. How would I make myself a more competitive (and relevant) applicant? Are there any recommendation for a particular subject area for a master's program that could add value to the application?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think a better first question in terms of research and its relevance to path might be - are you willing to do a combined program? Many (if not most, nowadays) anatomic pathology programs are residency/PhD now (once can debate the advantage or necessity of this, but that could take up a whole 'nother thread). Clin path is still most often separate.

The first thing you will need to do if you haven't already is make connections in path. That will add more oomph to your application more than almost anything else, especially if you have been out in practice for a while. Networking is really, really important in our small field - a shining LOR from an established person in the field counts for a lot. Do you have any pathologists who could write you LoRs? If so, is there a way to reconnect with them? How close are you to an academic institution that, if you can get a foot in the door, might let you come to rounds, etc?