How do med school admissions view a Masters degres in non medical fields? I have sub-par undergraduate grades - 2.9 (due to distraction - went to Tulane) but 3.7 in grad school. I have been teaching for 4 years and thinking of a career change. Any thoughts on my chances of getting in to Northeast DO or MD programs? Am planning on applying for 2010.
View of Masters degree?
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I'm interested in this question too. I got my Master's in History last year and am just now deciding that I would like to give med school a go. My situation is a little different than yours, though because I did better as an undergrad (3.79) than as a grad (3.67).
What was your Master's in?
I have a Masters of Science in Education - It was a pretty intense one year program (ETEP at the University of Southern Maine) that required a full time teaching internship with all but 13 credits were taken during that year - boot camp for teachers. It was in no way medical school, but it was rigorous and did require 100% commitment. Studying for MCAT right now - sitting May 28.
Sadly, med schools look primarily at your undergraduate GPA and MCAT ONLY as numerical evaluators of your application. The general consensus on SDN is that a master's degree is nice, kind of like an extra EC. And graduate level classes do not raise your undergad GPA.
I wish it were otherwise, but the truth is that only more undergraduate courses will raise the relevant GPA.
I wish it were otherwise, but the truth is that only more undergraduate courses will raise the relevant GPA.
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An exception to this rule would be an SMP, in which you take actual medical school classes en route to the masters. Might be a good option if there are some undergrad lapses in your transcripts
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It's true that med schools look primarily at your udergraduate gpa and MCAT scores. However, there is also another exception to the rule.
Many of us who are non-trads may have bachelor degrees with "not-so-hot" gpa's from years ago. If you show RECENT work which is much better, then your undergraduate GPA will not weigh as much as someone who is straight out of undergraduate school.
Also, after doing much research into this (and with ChocolateBear's help) I discovered that while your Master's degree won't affect your undergraduate GPA, it does factor into your "overall gpa". So, if your undergraduate gpa isnt so great, do the best you can in your masters program and it will help.
When I first started down this road, I was not aware that there were so many GPA's taken into account.
You will have the following listed on your application:
Undergraduate GPA
Science GPA
Post-bac GPA
Graduate GPA (if applicable)
Overall GPA
NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO D.O. APPLICATIONS - NOT M.D.
Many of us who are non-trads may have bachelor degrees with "not-so-hot" gpa's from years ago. If you show RECENT work which is much better, then your undergraduate GPA will not weigh as much as someone who is straight out of undergraduate school.
Also, after doing much research into this (and with ChocolateBear's help) I discovered that while your Master's degree won't affect your undergraduate GPA, it does factor into your "overall gpa". So, if your undergraduate gpa isnt so great, do the best you can in your masters program and it will help.
When I first started down this road, I was not aware that there were so many GPA's taken into account.
You will have the following listed on your application:
Undergraduate GPA
Science GPA
Post-bac GPA
Graduate GPA (if applicable)
Overall GPA
NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO D.O. APPLICATIONS - NOT M.D.
Thanks FutureDrB that is encouraging as I am most interested in Osteopathy. I am taking two Physics classes this summer which hopefully will boost my undergraduate GPA a little, though at this point I think for undergraduate GPA is a done deal.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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You may want to contact some DO schools for admissions counseling. I don't know how much your MS will help you for DO apps. But if the DO schools would want you to push back your app by one year to get some more recent coursework, it would be good to know that before wasting time and money applying.
You are in a much stronger position than the previous poster. The average GPA for allo matriculants is around a 3.6, so yours is just fine. Your grad GPA isn't going to affect that, since they won't be averaged together (at least not for allo schools). As long as you completed your grad program in good standing and get a LOR from your advisor, you should be fine.
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browndog,
agree with above advice.
2.9 is a low undergrad GPA and the adcom won't care that much about your grad school GPA, though it does show you have improved your commitment to academics.
I hope you have enough science background before you launch yourself toward taking the MCAT...you don't want a low MCAT score stacked on top of a lower GPA.
I would try to take some more undergrad courses (science ones) to try to get the GPA up a little bit. I think you'll have an uphill battle getting into US MD schools just because there are so many high GPA candidates. However, if you do pretty well on the MCAT and get some volunteer work in a clinical setting, I think some DO schools might look favorably upon your application, particularly with retaking some of your science courses and getting A's. The schools in the Caribbean would also probably take you if you do all right on the MCAT...it's a little risky going down there but it is a way to get the MD and if you think you could be happy doing some of the less sought after residencies (i.e. not dermatology or plastic surgery or urology) it might be an option.
agree with above advice.
2.9 is a low undergrad GPA and the adcom won't care that much about your grad school GPA, though it does show you have improved your commitment to academics.
I hope you have enough science background before you launch yourself toward taking the MCAT...you don't want a low MCAT score stacked on top of a lower GPA.
I would try to take some more undergrad courses (science ones) to try to get the GPA up a little bit. I think you'll have an uphill battle getting into US MD schools just because there are so many high GPA candidates. However, if you do pretty well on the MCAT and get some volunteer work in a clinical setting, I think some DO schools might look favorably upon your application, particularly with retaking some of your science courses and getting A's. The schools in the Caribbean would also probably take you if you do all right on the MCAT...it's a little risky going down there but it is a way to get the MD and if you think you could be happy doing some of the less sought after residencies (i.e. not dermatology or plastic surgery or urology) it might be an option.
dragonfly99 - I have a good science background - Biology and Environmental Science undergrad. I am teaching HS Chemistry and soon to be Physics next year. Have taught Biology. I am pretty confident in a 30+ on the MCAT. I will soon start to volunteer in Oncology at a Maine Medical Center and am looking for an area DO to shadow. I am married and have a 2.5 year old and one on the way. We are fairly well rooted and would like to stay in southern maine so my choices for schools are limited. Tufts (Maine Track) and UNECOM. I guess my real question is should I go ahead and apply this cycle (do I have a decent chance to get an interview) or take Orgo again next year and wait until 2011.
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Hi. This sounds almost exactly like a snapshot of me when I applied. I taught HS Chemistry, had a really good undergrad GPA in biochemistry and a MS in chemistry. I got a 30+ on the MCAt and I wanted to stay put so I only applied to the 2 places in town. I applied shortly after having my 1st baby. I did NOT get in the 1st round because I jumped the gun - I applied before I got any significant shadowing/volunteering under my belt. The schools are going to want proof that you are not making this career changing choice on a whim. Make sure that you've got a creditable number of MEDICAL volunteer hours and some shadowing under your belt before you send in any applications. And make sure that your personal statement addresses your desire for a change to medicine vs.education. The fact that you are only applying to 2 places is another hurdle that takes a little extra push to overcome. Good luck and feel free to PM me if you'd like more advice.
chanjurban
PS. - This is a little uncanny. Do I know you? I'm from New Orleans too....
D
deleted74029
I think there are exceptions, I talked with a dean of admissions today and he said as long as its fairly obvious that the program is rigorous then a masters degree could help. I have a 2.9 undergrad GPA and will be getting a masters in physiology and biophysics and he said that if I were to do well in the program then it would benefit me ALOT. I'm not nontraditional either, 22 years old.
Would you share the name of the school?
I certainly do think that hard-to-quantify factors like tier of undergrad/grad institution, major, perceived rigor of degree program etc. do matter. It's just that I think it's safer to get your ugrad GPA over a certain threshhold if you can in order to minimize the chance of automatic screening.
I certainly do think that hard-to-quantify factors like tier of undergrad/grad institution, major, perceived rigor of degree program etc. do matter. It's just that I think it's safer to get your ugrad GPA over a certain threshhold if you can in order to minimize the chance of automatic screening.
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sounds like the OP does have a good science background.
I think applying to only 2 schools makes getting in very, very dicey. However, the fact that they know you have ties to the community may sway them, especially if you can do well on the MCAT. No matter how you slice it, a 2.9 undergrad GPA is going to hurt a lot, but the later better academic performance is probably going to be looked at too. If you have a low MCAT + the 2.9 GPA that will make them worry if you are ready to med school level work, so you HAVE to do well on the MCAT.
Agree w/above advice about the personal statement.
It sounds like you know where you want/need to live, so in that situation I'd just take the MCAT, then apply to the 2 schools. You may not get in at first, but the DO school in particular might be more interested in you b/c of your nontrad status and ties to the community, so no reason to not give it a shot. You can look at their average GPA/MCAT for accepted students at that school to get a better idea of where you'd stand.
I'd consider retaking some undergrad upper level science classes (and/or ones you got low grades in) either now or after taking the MCAT. You may not have time to take any classes while studying for the MCAT...
I think applying to only 2 schools makes getting in very, very dicey. However, the fact that they know you have ties to the community may sway them, especially if you can do well on the MCAT. No matter how you slice it, a 2.9 undergrad GPA is going to hurt a lot, but the later better academic performance is probably going to be looked at too. If you have a low MCAT + the 2.9 GPA that will make them worry if you are ready to med school level work, so you HAVE to do well on the MCAT.
Agree w/above advice about the personal statement.
It sounds like you know where you want/need to live, so in that situation I'd just take the MCAT, then apply to the 2 schools. You may not get in at first, but the DO school in particular might be more interested in you b/c of your nontrad status and ties to the community, so no reason to not give it a shot. You can look at their average GPA/MCAT for accepted students at that school to get a better idea of where you'd stand.
I'd consider retaking some undergrad upper level science classes (and/or ones you got low grades in) either now or after taking the MCAT. You may not have time to take any classes while studying for the MCAT...
Sindadel:
Undergrad: Tulane University
Grad School: University of Southern Maine (Extended Teacher Education Program - ETEP) Non Science but very rigorous, it is a well known and respected program in the area.
Taking Physics I and II this summer, online Biochem as a prerequisite at UNE at some point, and maybe retaking orgo next year.
Hard to keep up with MCAT studies with a time teaching position. I also coach tennis so my small amount of free time will disappear - I see late nights in my future. Good practice for med school as my ability to concentrate after 8pm has deteriorated in the past few years.
Undergrad: Tulane University
Grad School: University of Southern Maine (Extended Teacher Education Program - ETEP) Non Science but very rigorous, it is a well known and respected program in the area.
Taking Physics I and II this summer, online Biochem as a prerequisite at UNE at some point, and maybe retaking orgo next year.
Hard to keep up with MCAT studies with a time teaching position. I also coach tennis so my small amount of free time will disappear - I see late nights in my future. Good practice for med school as my ability to concentrate after 8pm has deteriorated in the past few years.
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A non-SMP Master's degree will count for next to nothing in your med school app. With a 2.9 UG gpa, I wouldn't bother applying to any MD schools. If you are applying to DO schools, retake some UG classes and replace those poor grades. That's the fastest way to boost your app.
For MD schools, you will pretty much need a SMP. You can take additional UG classes, but a whole other degree at 4.0 won't even get you to 3.5 overall. I'd focus on DO and do the retakes.
For MD schools, you will pretty much need a SMP. You can take additional UG classes, but a whole other degree at 4.0 won't even get you to 3.5 overall. I'd focus on DO and do the retakes.
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OP, you may have a very hard time with that sub-3.0 UGPA. DO schools are raising their requirements, and UNECOM is currently discussing raising their UGPA to somewhere around 3.3-3.5 and their MCAT to 30 (yeah, I was shocked too). Will that happen? I dunno. But we have a new dean who is sticking to the letter of things. There is no longer the attitude of "we let you in, now we're gonna do all we can to help you pass". It's more of "you worked you butt off to get in here, now if you fail more than two courses (even with remediation) you're out" 'cuz that's what's in the student handbook. they're cracking down bigtime. And I personally think it'll be good for UNECOM.
But I digress. Bottom line: if you're going to be selective and only apply to two schools you have to have a stellar application. Many many people apply to one or two schools and never make it. If it were me (and I realize it's not), I would retake any class I got a C in and raise that UGPA to at least a 3.25 for DO schools. Remember, AACOMAS replaces grades. and I would seriously give consideration to making an appointment with the admissions dean and the dean of each med school to carefully review my application and tell me honestly what I need to do to have a good shot.
As for that "I'm sure I'll get a 30+ on the MCAT"... everyone says that. And very few actually do it. Folks who got A's in all their science pre-reqs don't get 30+ on the MCAT. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Study hard. I hope you do kill it. HOWEVER: There was a guy on here a few years ago who got an engineering degree (talk about tough) at one of the top engineering colleges in the country. He developed the leading test for a particular kind of cancer that is currently industry standard. He had a 32 or 34 MCAT. But he had a sub-3.0 GPA. He applied broadly. And got rejected for 3 years in a row due to his GPA.
A little humility is a good thing. Do the retakes, go over your app with a few Deans (the real deals, not pre-meds and current med students), and work like a dog on killing the MCAT. And pray. Rub a rabbit's foot. Get 4 dozen four leaf clovers. Carry a couple horseshoes around with you. You'll need all the luck you can get. Med school admissions aren't getting any easier.
But I digress. Bottom line: if you're going to be selective and only apply to two schools you have to have a stellar application. Many many people apply to one or two schools and never make it. If it were me (and I realize it's not), I would retake any class I got a C in and raise that UGPA to at least a 3.25 for DO schools. Remember, AACOMAS replaces grades. and I would seriously give consideration to making an appointment with the admissions dean and the dean of each med school to carefully review my application and tell me honestly what I need to do to have a good shot.
As for that "I'm sure I'll get a 30+ on the MCAT"... everyone says that. And very few actually do it. Folks who got A's in all their science pre-reqs don't get 30+ on the MCAT. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Study hard. I hope you do kill it. HOWEVER: There was a guy on here a few years ago who got an engineering degree (talk about tough) at one of the top engineering colleges in the country. He developed the leading test for a particular kind of cancer that is currently industry standard. He had a 32 or 34 MCAT. But he had a sub-3.0 GPA. He applied broadly. And got rejected for 3 years in a row due to his GPA.
A little humility is a good thing. Do the retakes, go over your app with a few Deans (the real deals, not pre-meds and current med students), and work like a dog on killing the MCAT. And pray. Rub a rabbit's foot. Get 4 dozen four leaf clovers. Carry a couple horseshoes around with you. You'll need all the luck you can get. Med school admissions aren't getting any easier.
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A non-SMP Master's degree will count for next to nothing in your med school app. With a 2.9 UG gpa, I wouldn't bother applying to any MD schools. If you are applying to DO schools, retake some UG classes and replace those poor grades. That's the fastest way to boost your app.
For MD schools, you will pretty much need a SMP. You can take additional UG classes, but a whole other degree at 4.0 won't even get you to 3.5 overall. I'd focus on DO and do the retakes.
I found the same thing in general -- top tier grad degree in non-medical field = no love. "and your gpa and mcat scores are..."
Exceptions may be private allo schools that have a large enough admissions staff to truly hear your story; not sure how to find these other than call them and see what you hear. Or DO as stated above.
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If you can weave that Master's degree into your PS, that may be quite beneficial. Explain how you plan to use your MS/MBA/MA/MPH/etc. to contribute to the healthcare profession/society/healthcare system/etc.
There's a growing need for people who have formal education training to improve medical/health education and continuing education.
There's a growing need for people who have formal education training to improve medical/health education and continuing education.
