Waiting for the Match

[MonkeyJunction]

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Ok, rankings have been made (for the applicants) and now it's an excruciating 6 weeks to find out where you will be living for 3 years (residency) or 1 year if you are applying for an internship. When my wife asked my opinion as to where to rank the places she applied for an oncology residency, I left it up to her and told her I would support and adjust to where ever she ends up at if she matches. I told her she should make that decision based on her future goals and choose which ever place would help her reach that goal. The same way I have done in my career.

I also asked her what she would do if she did not match and she was pretty straight forward and said she would begin her career as a gp ahead of the game because of the experience from her internship.

So I feel like a winner no matter what happens

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's a tough situation mate, and no mistake.

I thank God veterinary clin (and anat) pathology doesn't use the matching system. To be honest, I dont understand why it (the program) even exists. It just seems like a bad idea.

Can anyone shed light on why the matching program is supposed to be a good thing? To me, it just seems like it takes out any choice you may have in the matter. Instead of being able to say "Ok, I am accepted here and here...which would I prefer...." and being able to weigh options and make a choice....you are roped in to going to one place and one place only. Unless I am hijacking your thread? It is just something that has always been in my mind.

 

[Bill59]

To understand the advantages of the match you have to understand the clusterhump that characterized internship/residency applications before the match.

Each school would try to get the students they wanted as soon as possible. So they would offer students a position before students had time to look at other places. They often had a short deadline (say 24 hours) to accept the offer. So students felt pressured to take their first offer, even if it was not their first choice. In some cases, the students were signing contracts in their 1st or 2nd year.

As you can imagine, there was a lot of wheeling and dealing and side deals. Overall though, the schools had a big advantage over the students because the supply: demand ratio was on their side.

To me, it just seems like it takes out any choice you may have in the matter.

You have all the choice. You only have to apply to places you want to go. And you rank your choices by preference.

"Ok, I am accepted here and here...which would I prefer...."

That's where your ranking comes in. You will get your first preference where you are accepted. If you don't get your first choice, it's because you weren't accepted there.

you are roped in to going to one place and one place only

Sure. You can only do one internship at a time.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I guess I can understand that....but the problem is it only works if you have a clear ranking of these program set in mind. I can see how organizationally it makes things easier on the schools. But is that best for us, the students/residents?

Yes, you have choice before the matter, but none after the fact. Does that make a bit more sense? I suppose it is useful in very competitive residencies like surgery, where if you get in anywhere, heck yes you are going to go! You'll go anywhere as long as you get one. But in the less competitive residencies, I just don't like the idea of only being allowed to weigh options after the match I find out where I stand. If you have any second thoughts, and decide you know what...after more thought, I prefer this...too bad! You're stuck. In the real world, you (hopefully/usually) have multiple job offers and can weigh options.

 

[MonkeyJunction]

... In the real world, you (hopefully/usually) have multiple job offers and can weigh options.

You have to understand this is not the real world and your only options are to serve or not to serve. This is more akin to being a (poorly)paid student with adult responsibilities. Some residents make only 25k a year for a 70 hour work week.

That's why you have to look at the big picture. Such as your goals and why you want to become a vet.

I personally like the idea of the match system and how it works. It seems the most fair for all involved. However I don't understand why it takes 6 weeks to work. Being a computer program it should work much quicker. I think applicants and instituitions should both finalize rankings at the same time and the results could be released within a matter of days. Considering there are only 800+/- applicants for what 1000+/- positions there are not too many glitches that would have to be corrected I would think.

It makes you wonder what is going on in that 2 weeks before instituitions have to rank and in that 4 weeks afterwards. I am assuming that some hands on ranking is being done so that an instituition does not end up with multiple interns from the same school(although that could be in the matching program computer qualifications)

Just seems strange

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

You have to understand this is not the real world and your only options are to serve or not to serve. This is more akin to being a (poorly)paid student with adult responsibilities. Some residents make only 25k a year for a 70 hour work week.

Whew, tell me about it. The top residencies I plan to apply for are around 30 K and I don't even want to know about the hours. Pooly paid student with adult responsibilities hah, that's pretty much spot on!

That's why you have to look at the big picture. Such as your goals and why you want to become a vet.

I'm not sure what the question "why do I want to become a vet" has to do with approving of the matching program, but I can see you do have a valid arguement otherwise. But it's still an opinion. I personally much prefer to apply to multiple places, see where I get accepted, and then make my own decision (a la vet school acceptance). I just don't know why they instituted it instead of just using the tried-and-true normal application and decision process.

Say, for example, you and your wife/husband/SO would like to do your residencies in the same area....You are matched to #1 school, but also could have gotten in at #2. She/he only gets in at the #2 location. So basically, with the matching system, you are screwed. But, if it was a normal application process, you would get into both 1 and 2, and could decide on 2.

Oh well. All for AVMA convenience, aye?

 

[Bill59]

It makes you wonder what is going on in that 2 weeks before instituitions have to rank and in that 4 weeks afterwards. I am assuming that some hands on ranking is being done so that an instituition does not end up with multiple interns from the same school(although that could be in the matching program computer qualifications)

The 2 weeks from when the applicants rank order list is due and the institutions rank order list is due is for the institutions to rank their applicants. The 4 weeks after that is presumably for the VIRMP to get everything entered, the computer to run to algorithm, time to check the results and enter them into the data base and create the hundreds of reports that go out.

There's no prohibition against getting multiple interns from the same school. If an institution ranks more than one applicant from a school, they may get more than 1 graduate from that school. This happens quite a bit in fact.

 

[Bill59]

I just don't know why they instituted it instead of just using the tried-and-true normal application and decision process.

Because the tried and true process wasn't working, as I tried to explain above.

Say, for example, you and your wife/husband/SO would like to do your residencies in the same area....You are matched to #1 school, but also could have gotten in at #2. She/he only gets in at the #2 location. So basically, with the matching system, you are screwed. But, if it was a normal application process, you would get into both 1 and 2, and could decide on 2.

Couples have 2 choices. You can do a couples match through the VIRMP. Or 1 can go through the match, the other sits out the match and then tries to go outside the match to get on wherever 1 matches.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Because the tried and true process wasn't working, as I tried to explain above.

True, but that's more the fault of the people trying to snap up the best kids and pushing up deadlines unfairly.

What I meant by tried and true would be just to have a common deadline for decision for all these residencies, have waitlisted people who would be notified after the deadline had passed and people had accepted where they wanted to go.....beh. I guess I am too idealistic when it comes to the big "clusterhump" (hah, love it.....) of residency apps. Oh well, disregard my comments....I do admit I'm not the expert on the subject, it has just always seemed a bit funny to me. I ramble!😛

I wasn't aware of a couples match, that's a good idea, glad they have it.

 

[MonkeyJunction]

The 2 weeks from when the applicants rank order list is due and the institutions rank order list is due is for the institutions to rank their applicants.

I know that when my wife tried to schedule visits for the 1st week of January last year for internship interviews. She was told that she could visit but their rankings would already be set(including where she eventually matched) and that was 1 week prior to ranking and 2 weeks prior to Institutional Ranking. So she crammed 7 academic visits across the country in a 8 day period(CSU,NCSU,tOS,OSU,Ill,WSU,PU) and 1 private in Seattle.

So I still quite don't see why there is a 2 week delay when the institutions have had applications for 6 weeks prior to student ranking. Are the institutions notitified if they have or have not been ranked by a candidate?

It still does look a little fishy. As far as it taking 4 weeks to sort through and enter the data, I just don't buy that. She got an email immediately confirming her rankings. Of course I am not a computer geek but I do know that if each applicant is assigned a number and each institution is assigned a number for each position offered. The computer can do the match immediately. Just based on the small numbers involved (800+/- applicants vs 1000+/- positions)
If every applicant avg 10 rankings(which I believe is well below avg) you are only talking about 8000 potential scenarios. Of course I realize that some places(CSU,CU,Angell, etc) get more applicants than most, but they reject most offhandly I assume as well.

So once again I say with the way computer programs are written I would be hardpressed to believe a need for the delay.

Afterall hasn't all the data already been entered? Except the rankings?

 

[ri23]

Are there really only 800 applicants for 1000 positions (roughly)? It seems it would be a bit more competitive than that.

 

[Bill59]

Many institutions want to get all their interviews done before they start ranking. Once you start going through applications you don't want to have to go back and re-do someone because they interviewed. Besides once you start the rankings you don't have time to do interviews anyway.

For ranking applicants, everyone on the selection committee has to read all the files, get in touch with and talk to references and then get together and agree on the ranking. Since this is done in your "spare time" figure on about a month. So they usually start ranking the first week of Jan to have it finished by the deadline (Feb 1 this year)

Since Christmas/New Year kills a week or two, anyone wanting an interview needs to plan on some time before the 3rd week in Dec at the latest. And of course you need to arrange this several months in advance.

As for why it takes the VIRMP so long, I don't know all the details. I do know at one point the head guy checked everything by hand afterwards(again in his "spare time").

Of course if you have ideas on how to make it more efficient I suspect they wold be open to volunteers. 🙂

 

[MonkeyJunction]

Are there really only 800 applicants for 1000 positions (roughly)? It seems it would be a bit more competitive than that.

You have to remember alot of the internship positions are private internships like Banfield, VCA and smaller places which from what we learned are not very competitive and go unfilled. The majority of the academic internships are very competitive. Some places like CSU or Angell will receive a hundred or more applicants for only 6-10 positions. In my wifes case of applying for an oncology residency, there were only 17 slots available through the match this year. She only applied to 6. 3 she really would like to go to and 3 she would be willing to go to if necessary. Which means there were 11 places she was just not willing to live and work for 3 years even if it means she will not get a position this year.

So to answer your question the most sought after positions are very competitive.

 

[almostglue]

Does anyone know why they seem to be so uptight about the statstics from the match? Such as things like the percentage of applicants that matched; how many people applied for onco vs. ophtho vs. surgery residency (and so on); and many more variations. I know they collect all this data (just through the application even if it's not on purpose) but they won't release it.

I'm just curious. I know everything depends on your individual application but it would be nice to see some sort of statistical anaylsis on the match. Especially now that many residencies pretty much require you to do two internships (rotating and specific to that area) to get in now that so many people are applying for so few spots.

Anyone have any thoughts on why they don't publish this info?

 

[GoldensForever]

I think places are notified as to which applicants rank them - that way they don't bother ranking people who aren't even ranking them or withdrew from the match.

I am agonizing over the match... will I get an internship? Where am I moving to next year? It's so difficult, especially when you hear Drs tell students that "someone" or "somewhere" was asking about them. Is that good or possibly bad if a place is asking about you? Who knows.

Yes, supposedly students have more control with a match system. But it still sucks, especially with another 4 weeks of waiting to go.

 

[Bill59]

IIs that good or possibly bad if a place is asking about you?

It's not bad. We ask about everybody we are considering ranking. So if they're asking, you're at least in the mix.

 

[GoldensForever]

1 more week to go... is anyone else really anxious to hear back? I keep checking the website to see if they will accidentally go online early.

On an alternative note... how common is it for schools to take their own interns as residents? My school has done this a couple times but more often than not they prefer to go with the match... do they not trust the quality of their own interns or do they feel they'll get someone better through the match? I would think you would be more comfortable with someone you've worked with for 1 year vs. meeting for 1 day during an interview.

 

[Bill59]

I think it depends on the program. Most will not automatically exclude their own interns for their residency positions. If you have an outstanding intern that's really interested in a residency position, most places will consider them. I know we do, although we usually will still go through the match even if we rank our intern high.

A lot of schools are very reluctant to keep a student as an intern. That's a tough transition because you're going from a student to the doctor but a lot of people still think of you as a student. Going from intern to resident at the same place tends to be easier.

 

[alliecat44]

Match day!!! Where's everyone going??

 

[GoldensForever]

I got an academic internship that was one of my top picks... so I'm happy! Wow, yesterday was a whirlwind... match day is a big deal at my school. Everyone knows about everyone else by 9am. But almost everyone that applied through the match got something, so my class did pretty well. 🙂

 

[PAThbrd]

Congrats on matching!