Wake Forest vs. Georgetown

[bowdoinguy]

Hi SDN,
This is my first SDN posting and I would first like to thank all of you for communicating with each other through this network. You have all given me so much valuble information.
My problem is that I had interviews at both Georgetown and Wake Forest. Wake Forest is ranked higher by USNews but is in a lousy city (Winston-Salem). Georgetown is not ranked as high, used to be ranked high but droped down recently, is catholic, but is in a great city near my house. I shouldn?t really worry yet because I haven?t been accepted yet. I was accepted at EVMS and USUHS. USUHS wants a comitment very soon, so now I?m really stressing about all this. What further complicates things is that I?m an economics major and thus think that it may benefit me to get the combined MD/MBA available at Gtown and WF. It costs more to go there and very few doctors have gone through it, so I?m not really sure of the benefits. I just want to be the best doctor I can and still consider the costs of going to medical school.

Thank you again SDN for being so much help so far.🙂

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[ScreamingTreesRule]

You're joking, right?

G'town has one of the best names in the U.S. Nothing against Wake Forest, but G'town is considered one of the best Universities in the country, and Wake Forest, well... isn't considered that.

As for their medical schools, yes, G'town was ranked up until a year ago, but that's because they got into money trouble and, unlike all of the other schools on that list, they couldn't pay off the US News reporters!

Seriously, G'town has one of the best match lists in all of medicine, ranking or no ranking. I don't think there's much of a contest in terms of name and prestige when compared to not just Wake Forest, but to most schools.

Either school will get you a good edcation, but unfortunately, sometimes you have to look at prestige and match lists in that they help open doors, and give you a step up on the competition when you graduate.

 

[lola]

i think the schools are of similar quality/caliber with gtown having a slight edge. gtown has more national recognition (particularly in fields other than medicine), but wf has had higher med rankings in recent years. it really comes down to where you think you'd be the happiest b/c of e.g. particular program, location, cost, etc... although i have not visited wf, i highly doubt i'd be happier in winston-salem than dc, but that's really a personal thing. sorry this is not that helpful, but i think that since there is not that big of a difference in prestige of the schools, you should think about which environment you'd be the happiest in.

 

[Lady MD]

I agree with the others.

Georgetown.

Their national prestige alone will give you an edge come Residency time. 😉

Originally posted by bowdoinguy
Hi SDN,
This is my first SDN posting and I would first like to thank all of you for communicating with each other through this network. You have all given me so much valuble information.
My problem is that I had interviews at both Georgetown and Wake Forest. Wake Forest is ranked higher by USNews but is in a lousy city (Winston-Salem). Georgetown is not ranked as high, used to be ranked high but droped down recently, is catholic, but is in a great city near my house. I shouldn?t really worry yet because I haven?t been accepted yet. I was accepted at EVMS and USUHS. USUHS wants a comitment very soon, so now I?m really stressing about all this. What further complicates things is that I?m an economics major and thus think that it may benefit me to get the combined MD/MBA available at Gtown and WF. It costs more to go there and very few doctors have gone through it, so I?m not really sure of the benefits. I just want to be the best doctor I can and still consider the costs of going to medical school.

Thank you again SDN for being so much help so far.🙂

 

[zer0el]

don't jump on the G-town bandwagon if the school doesn't feel right to you (and plenty of people come away from their interviews at G-town not liking the school at all).

the G-town supporters so far are really off the mark and don't know what they're talking about. in fact, one of them said that G-town has one of the best matchlists in all of medicine! give me a break. just because they match plenty into ortho means they have one of the best matchlists. i've said it before and i'll say it again. the programs that the students match into is a much better indicator of a school's strength than the specialties. i'm sure hopkins grads could match a ton into ortho if they stressed that specialty. but they don't. but plenty of their grads wind up at MGH, mayo, UCSF, etc.

G-town will open doors for you that WF won't? i don't think so. outside of the top 10 med schools, the name of ur school won't matter that much (and G-town's name certainly won't get directors knocking down your door anytime soon). the public may recognize G-town's name a lot more than WF's, but the public ain't matching u into HSS ortho.

u should have a gut feeling which med school u really liked. go with that one (location, student body, etc. will naturally fall into place in helping u make ur decision).

 

[bw07]

It's funny that I rarely ever see someone claiming that Harvard or Hopkins or UCSF has one of the "best names" but Georgetown supporters will make darn sure you know it. I'm more impressed when the school doesn't need to try to prove anything, it's just accepted fact.

For the original poster, Georgetown is indeed more prestigious than Wake Forest, but not by the level some people say. Since that's the case, I wouldn't let differences in prestige be what sways you, but rather cost, location, curriculum, atmosphere, etc as you've previously mentioned.

 

[UCLAMAN]

I agree zer0el. Gtown may be more famous than wake...However, I don't think that they have enough clout to give you a decided advantage over a Wake Forest student when it comes to residencies(stats being equal). I think the only schools that have that kind of clout are top 10 or top 15 ranked schools(in usnews). I'd say you can't go wrong with either program. With that said, it is in your best interest to choose the school you were most comfortable at. Pick the school where you think you will thrive the most. Did you like DC over Winston? What wwas the cost of living in both areas? What kind of patient population do you want to be learning from? etc.

I think prestige factor is the last thing you should be looking at betweem these two schools. Previous posters make it seem as though a gtown education gives a fairly big edge when picking residencies. Remember though, selecting a residency program also depends on board scores, interviews, dean's letter, etc. etc.
The name of the school isn't whats gonna get you a residency spot(it may help if you went to hopkins, but we're not talking hopkins...gtown will help very little if any at all). Your hard work is gonna earn you a spot in the program you want. Go where you think you will be able to be the best medical student you can be.

 

[Tuesday Weld]

Yes, Georgetown has one of the most prestigious names in the academic world, but if you don't want to live in a big city, then you might want to go WF, esp if you don't care about getting into a competitive residency.

Georgetown not only has excellent matches in ortho, but also in other top fields like derm, neurosurgery, etc..

But if you 'just' want to be a GP (just in parens b/c it's not easy), which isn't extremely competitive, then look at the location of the schools: big city versus small town.

 

[surfdevl02]

bumpity bump

 

[qweewq11]

Hmm, lemme guess: you go to Georgetown
Georgetown is unranked (ie, ranked below top 50) by US News, 2nd tier in undergrad, and has the unfortunate baggage of being a Jesuit institution.

Originally posted by Tuesday Weld
Yes, Georgetown has one of the most prestigious names in the academic world, but if you don't want to live in a big city, then you might want to go WF, esp if you don't care about getting into a competitive residency.

Georgetown not only has excellent matches in ortho, but also in other top fields like derm, neurosurgery, etc..

But if you 'just' want to be a GP (just in parens b/c it's not easy), which isn't extremely competitive, then look at the location of the schools: big city versus small town.

 

[doctor girl]

Originally posted by qweewq11
Hmm, lemme guess: you go to Georgetown
Georgetown is unranked (ie, ranked below top 50) by US News, 2nd tier in undergrad, and has the unfortunate baggage of being a Jesuit institution.

They're definitely a Top Tier undergrad institution (they are in the Top Twenty in the country). Their law school is one of the best around.

Their rep is one of the best in the country...no way are they 2nd tier.

p.s.
I don't go to Georgetown.

 

[xaelia]

Originally posted by doctor girl
They're definitely a Top Tier undergrad institution (they are in the Top Twenty in the country). Their law school is one of the best around.

Their rep is one of the best in the country...no way are they 2nd tier.

Georgetown is certainly an excellent school, but I would hypothesize there are few high school students wringing their hands and tearing out their hair trying to decide between Yale, Duke, and Georgetown...or Stanford, MIT, and Georgetown. It's no shame to be listed as second tier behind those top ten or so schools....

 

[qweewq11]

so i checked us news....georgetown is 24, wake undergrad is 25. Top tier is 1-25.

 

[doctor girl]

"unfortunate baggage of being a Jesuit institution"

The Jesuit schools are the most highly regarded of all Catholic schools.

Originally posted by bowdoinguy

used to be ranked high but droped down recently, is catholic, but is in a great city near my house.

Bowdoinguy,
You make it sound like being Catholic is not a good thing. I'd hate to hear what you have to say about Jewish institutions! Do you have problem with religious schools? Some of the finest are Catholic, Jewish, ....

 

[qweewq11]

My qualms with Catholic med schools is that they adhere to what the Church believes, and the Church has many beliefs that conflict with the practice of good medicine, such as its anti-abortion and anti-contraception stances.

 

[wfu2005]

Gulp......
I just got out of our 10 am lecture on "how to get into residency even though you go to Wake Forest."
For some reason it was just a lawyer handing out business cards and explaining the difference between gifts and bribes. I can't figure it out.

This is a popular topic of conversation around here between various undergrad students. So allow me to add my humble opinion about the "I'm going only to a top 5 school b/c then I'll get any residency I want" way of thinking.

1. Grab US News
2. Throw it away
3. Get into as many schools as you can
4. Go to the one that curriculum seems to suit you, the people and faculty seem friendly, and is in a place in the country where you would like to spend 4 years of your life
5. Study
6. Do well on the boards
7. Do well on your rotations
8. You'll be fine

There's a reason why schools with higher "ranks" put more people in competitive matches. It might have something to do with the fact that people who go to top 10 schools BECAUSE they are top 10 schools, also want to do a competitive match BECAUSE it is a competitive match. Some others want to be doctors BECAUSE they truly love it.

Now that being said, Wake is a great school. Georgetown is a great school. YOU are the main reason for where you match, I've never heard anyone who's actually gone through it say that you have a better shot getting a residency going to a school ranked 20 over one that is 50. It just doesn't happpen.

Be happy first. You'll do better in the long run.

Here endeth the opinion. (by the way, Wake Forest is affiliated with Baptists and tobacco companies, and we're allowed to tell people not to smoke and 1 drink a day won't kill you, but shhhhhh)

 

[Jalby]

The only reason I would go to GT over Wake Forest would be the location. As for reputation getting you a better residency, BS.

That being said, where you go to school will help you get a good residency in the same locations. Schools like to take their own studunts, so if you are a borderline Ortho, your best shot would be at your own med school.

And all the people who says GT has a good rep and that helps you get into a good residency, the USnews has a ranking for reputation by residency directors. Wake froest was a 3.4 out of 5. GT, I tried to look up but couldn't.

 

[bw07]

Georgetown is not in the "top tier" though it is a very good school.

A tier is a grouping of subjects that share few differences at least in perception. The top tier of med schools should be schools that people have a hard time choosing between if accepted. IF (and it's a big if) prestige matters, people will look on Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Stanford, Penn, Duke, WashU, Columbia and maybe a few others and often be indifferent. Reputation among these schools are similar, and people will generally look more towards location, cost, curriculum, etc when choosing between them.

Georgetown is NOT in the above tier (in terms of prestige). Rather, it is in the same tier as Baylor, Pitt, UChicago, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Case, etc etc etc.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by bw07

Georgetown is NOT in the above tier (in terms of prestige). Rather, it is in the same tier as Baylor, Pitt, UChicago, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Case, etc etc etc.

Strickly talking about medical schools, the rankings of the schools you listed are as follows: 13, 17, 19, 39, 16, 22, 22.

Georgetown, unranked.

I would put Georgetown in the Einstein, Wake Forest, Boston Univ, Univ of virginia, U of Maryland, Jefferson, Ohio state catagory.

 

[bowdoinguy]

Thank you for all the great responses. I guess that I?ll have to decide if I?m country or city; southern or northern; will perform abortions or not perform abortions.
It is the abortion issue which disturbs me the most about Georgetown?s education. If I decide to go into primary care or Ob/Gyn then I should know how to perform an abortion. In any other specialty I don?t think this gap in the education really matters. It?s pretty hard to make these decisions about specialties when I haven?t even started my medical education. 😕

 

[bw07]

Originally posted by Jalby
Strickly talking about medical schools, the rankings of the schools you listed are as follows: 13, 17, 19, 39, 16, 22, 22.

Georgetown, unranked.

I would put Georgetown in the Einstein, Wake Forest, Boston Univ, Univ of virginia, U of Maryland, Jefferson, Ohio state catagory.

Thanks Jalby. I probably shouldn't have put Wake in the same group, but as bowdoinguy is deliberating between the two...

The point about GT is the same anyway though 🙂

 

[Goya]

Are you kidding me? Same tier as the schools you just listed? I suppose that's your opinion. But many residency directors would disagree...

And straight outta the mouth of one of the directors for the med residency placement programs at our school "the top students are basically the same at all the schools. But the dropoff for the rest of the class is a LOT bigger at schools without the rep. So we give the better schools the benefit of doubt when it comes to apps"

So, basically. If you're going to kick ass...you got no problem wherever you go. But name does help give you a little edge when it comes to picking someone outta a pile. Is it worth the extra money? Well...varies from person to person.

Georgetown is a good school. But I don't automatically put it up there with the schools that you had mentioned. Very quality...but Uchicago? Baylor? Northwestern? They're in that tier right behind the Harvards, hopkins, etc. I don't think of Georgetown in that category. Then again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Originally posted by bw07
Georgetown is not in the "top tier" though it is a very good school.

A tier is a grouping of subjects that share few differences at least in perception. The top tier of med schools should be schools that people have a hard time choosing between if accepted. IF (and it's a big if) prestige matters, people will look on Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Stanford, Penn, Duke, WashU, Columbia and maybe a few others and often be indifferent. Reputation among these schools are similar, and people will generally look more towards location, cost, curriculum, etc when choosing between them.

Georgetown is NOT in the above tier (in terms of prestige). Rather, it is in the same tier as Baylor, Pitt, UChicago, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Case, etc etc etc.

 

[Goya]

Oops too slow on the response. Damn you slow, fat fingers. 🙂

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by Goya

And straight outta the mouth of one of the directors for the med residency placement programs at our school "the top students are basically the same at all the schools. But the dropoff for the rest of the class is a LOT bigger at schools without the rep. So we give the better schools the benefit of doubt when it comes to apps"

So, basically. If you're going to kick ass...you got no problem wherever you go. But name does help give you a little edge when it comes to picking someone outta a pile. Is it worth the extra money? Well...varies from person to person.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[bw07]

Please read it again. I'M trying to tell the other people that Georgetown is NOT in the same tier as Harvard, Hopkins. I put it in the second tier, but you are right that it can go lower. Personally, I would put all the schools Ihad in the second tier above Georgetown, but with all their proclamations about GT's match list, I felt like I had to concede something.

 

[bw07]

Originally posted by cg1
Like someone else said, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but as far as reputation, G'town has one of the best of all undergraduate schools. I don't know where you guys have been...maybe you're new to the U.S.? , but it's a Top undergrad school that has one of the most competitive admissions stats in the country.

Yes, their med school rank dropped last year, but their match lists are tops. G'town's med school isn't considered one of the "tops", but their undergrad school definitely is.

If you asked most people in the country, they'd put it right alongside the Chicago's, Stanford's, and MIT's. None of those schools are ivy league, but they're all up there in terms of prestige and reputation. You're kidding yourself (or like Jalby, have a grudge against being rejected) if you don't think that the G'town name isn't prestigious.

What do you consider to be "tops" or "best"?

Top 5? Top 10? Top 25?

 

[zer0el]

dude cg1, no one is saying that georgetown undergrad is not prestigious. but as prestigious as Stanford and MIT? u gotta be kidding. u honestly think that at least a fifth of georgetown students chose it over harvard, mit, stanford, yale, or princeton? in order to be in the same league, you would think that stanford would be competing with georgetown for the same applicants. that is hardly the case. you know who you'll find at georgetown? the ivy rejects or those with some weird fascination with D.C.

and even if i let u have the claim that georgetown is as prestigious as you say, what about the academic reputation of the school, its student body, faculty, etc. care to argue about the strength of their depts. (other than foreign) or how their student body can hang with the top schools'?

and no, i'm not new to the U.S. born and raised in cali and now go to school in the East coast. in cali, georgetown is thought of less highly than Berkeley. at the school i go to now, i haven't met a single student that even considered georgetown. harvard, stanford, etc. are high on the list tho.

as for public opinion, look at the poll Gallup conducted. g-town is not up there. sorry.

 

[lola]

geez! can we stop picking on georgetown? i don't know how many negative posts about gtown i can stand. i considered going there for undergrad (would have DEFINITELY chosen it over berkeley) and was very impressed by the school. no, it is not top 5 (i don't think anyone is claiming it is), but it is an excellent ugrad school. who cares if it is #15 vs. #25! the med school rep is not as strong, but it is still a good school. rankings really don't mean that much anyway.

 

[doctor girl]

The fact that two posters brought up about one of the "negatives" of georgetown is that it's Catholic, makes me think that there could be some dislike of its religious affiliation? It's politically correct to make fun of Christians, so maybe some of the posters are anti-Christian? I don't know? 😕

Wake Forest is affiliated with Baptists and tobacco companies

Concerning the abortion issue, there are a lot of Protestant-affiliated medical schools (someone just pointed out how WF is Baptist). Catholics aren't the only Christian denomination that are Pro-Life.

If I decide to go into primary care or Ob/Gyn then I should know how to perform an abortion.

Bowdoinguy - be careful because a lot of women won't go to an Ob who has performed abortions. It's a "thing" with expectant mothers:
They don't want a doctor to deliver their baby if they've killed others in the womb.

 

[gogiants]

Bowdoinguy-
in terms of not being able to learn to perform an abortion at Georgetown i don't think that is correct. though you may not be able to do one at the actual georgetown (therefore catholic) hospital your 3rd and 4th year rotations can be spent at many different hospitals the school is affiliated with where there are no such rules. i asked about this issue at loyola (also catholic) and was told the same sort of answer. basically, you can do anything you want, and although i don't think i could ever perform an abortion i agree that it is important to have the freedom to determine whether you want to learn how to. plus, an abortion is usually just a simple d & c with you will learn for other purposes anyways.

 

[bw07]

No, I wasn't asking you for USnews rankings. I can look those up. I was asking, when you use the word BEST and TOP TIER, are you referring to what you personally consider the TOP 5 schools in the nation? TOP 10? or what?

By using "top tier" and "best," your posts above suggest that Georgetown is as highly regarded as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and so forth. If in fact, it is NOT as highly regarded as them, then it follows that it is on a lower tier than the top tier.

I'm also not talking about what the average person in the US thinks. I think the relevant group would be people who have gone to college, and for the purposes of this forum, especially those who are in medical fields. It's not that I don't care about the rest of the population, but I don't think their opinion is substantive here.

Originally posted by cg1
Rankings change every year and a lot of it is political (and money driven). You put a number on it....Top 5 means only what the person who's giving out the number says that it means.

According to USNews?

I'm referring to the general population of the U.S. The average Joe doesn't read US News or know about their rankings. If Harvard dropped down to number 20, they'd still say that "Harvard is the best".

When I say that their undergrad has one of the best reputations in the country, I mean that if you ask most people in this country (obviously SDN'ers are looking at USNews ranks...and medical ranks at that), they will mention G'town in the same breath as Chicago and MIT.

For instance, Hopkins isn't a top 10 school in undergrad, but their prestige is one of the highest in the country. Of course, rankings, prestige, reputation...it all is relative because it all depends on who is giving their ranking, their opinion on who is the most "prestigious".

I'm just saying that the *average* person in the country considers G'town up there with Chicago and Stanford. It might be wrong or it might be right, but that's the general concensus.

Concerning their matchlist, they statistically have more ortho and neurosurgery and "hard" residency matches than most other schools in the country (and that includes Harvard, Columbia, Stanford).