WANTED: Info about Forensics...

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JoeFISH

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So I've recently been bit by the Forensics bug. I'll be applying for fellowships (in something) this summer (I'm an AP/CP R2). I've spent the last year or so preparing for a different field and Forensics is pretty new and I have some Q's for those of you that may be in the field, a fellow, or getting ready to apply...feel free to PM me with details as to not put yourself on the spot.

1. There are 30-something programs, how competitive is it?

2. What's the current job market like in Forensics? (PLEASE no humdrum, everything sucks, no one can get a job answer. I'd like answers from people that have first hand experience, not hearsay...please:meanie:)

3. Typical starting salary?

4. Reputable programs?

5. Programs to stay away from?

6. Opinions/experiences with different career paths (expert witness and consults, vs. local med examiner, etc.)

And that's about it. ANY info would be great. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can in a short amount of time before I send out apps.

THANKS!

Joe
 
One of our residents went to do a forensic fellowship at the Chief Medical Examiner Office in Manhattan, NYC. She said that the experience there was fabulous. She had got a job offer before she finished the fellowship year. I recommend you apply there, if you like to be busy and want to get a decent experience. Needless to say that NYC has all kinds of good cases!!










P.S.
The funniest thing was that she got married with a cop!!.
 
I'm starting my fellowship at the NYC OCME in July. Here's the info I can give you from my own experience.

You mentioned that there are 30 some programs. While this is true, I'd try to get a slot at one of the top ones. If you end up at a crappy one, your education will suffer and you won't get the bonus of great networking. These top programs are generally considered to be (in no particular order): NYC, New Mexico, Miami, and Baltimore. All of the top programs are going to be more competitive than the others.

as far as the job market goes, it sounds a bit tough right now, mirroring what is going on in the pathology community as a whole. one additional factor that you may not realize is that many of the positions are in a local government-run office, meaning the budgets are tight right now. they may need a new person, but don't have the money to hire someone. i know of several fellows finishing this year that have had a hard time finding positions. they've found them, but may have had to go to different parts of the country than they were expecting. if there's one office for the entire state and they're not hiring, guess who's moving? i haven't tested the waters yet myself, so hopefully things will improve in the coming year. i think the job hunt is improved by coming from one of those top programs, since you will now know people who know people.


The typical starting salary, from what I've seen, is lower than academics and a lot lower than private practice. you don't go into forensics for the money. your pay can also depend on your credentials. you will make more if you have board certifications (AP/FP or AP/CP/FP). In fact, i think many larger places are moving away from non-certified hires.

Now I don't know for sure, but I would think that you would probably need to get a few years under your belt at the local ME's office before you can start selling yourself as an expert witness and doing consults. All ME's will act as expert witnesses as part of their job when they are called to testify on their cases. Now I can't speak to the difference about working in an ME system vs a coroner system and being contracted to do cases.

are you finishing your 2nd year now? you should get cracking! some places require that you rotate at the office the in order to apply.
 
I agree with the previous posts. Getting a forensic fellowship is not competitive, but getting into one of the more reputable programs mentioned above is very competitive. You have to apply to these programs 2 years in advance and at least NYC and Miami (I think) require an audition rotation early in the application process.

As was said, people are getting jobs, but getting a job in a specific location may be difficult. But, forensic pathologists are notorious for moving around the country. Starting salaries usually range from $120,000 to $150,000, but it varies.

As for programs, I would say that the main thing you want to look for in a program is the ability to do different types of cases (naturals and homicides) with graduated responsibility and a healthy mix of instruction/oversight and independence.
 
Short version is...I pretty much agree. (Sorry, this is LONG AS CRAP, read the rest at your own peril.)

Sidebar before I address the original poster's questions -- Yes, "selling" yourself as an expert witness in consult cases takes a while, as you need enough experience and reputation to be considered as a paid consultant. However, after a few months of fellowship it's quite possible that the court will recognize you as an "expert witness" and allow you to testify as such. In fact, it's highly desirable that you testify as such before you finish fellowship -- just hard to accomplish because the obscenely sluggish judicial system limits the likelihood that one of your cases will go to trial, AND need a forensic pathologist to testify, within a year. (You don't have to be FP certified to be considered an "expert witness" in forensic path.)

1. Competition: The good programs (see below) are very competitive, not uncommonly filling 2-3 years in advance. But, there seem to be more fellowship positions than people filling them overall, so there are opportunities out there. It just may be at a smaller program with less of a reputation. And keep in mind that competitive applicants occasionally get swayed away from forensic path into something more lucrative -- when I was interviewing for fellowships it seemed like a lot of programs had a story of someone backing out a few months before starting. I don't recall any place REQUIRING you do a rotation with them to get a fellowship there, but it made things easier, especially the competitive places.

2. Job market: There are a lot of positions out there, but they are extremely scattered. Having to move to start a job isn't a possibility, it's a strong likelihood. And it's true the governmental financial meltdown has tightened the screws on places which would otherwise be hiring. But when I was looking only a year and a half or so ago it seemed like a lot of smaller offices were advertising. Larger offices with a strong national reputation tend to hire by networking or from internal fellows. Websites like thename.org and aafs.org are common places for offices to advertise, often but not always with salary information -- don't be discouraged by only seeing 4 or 5 postings, as there ALWAYS seems to be at least that many.

3. Starting salary: Pretty variable. Some information is posted in the advertisements for jobs (see #2). When I was starting as a path resident it seemed like the advertisements averaged around $120-130. When I was looking as a fellow it seemed more like ~$140. But it's pretty variable, depending on location (cost of living), the office, and local political goings on. A few offices have been successful in getting their salaries significantly raised, while others are still struggling. The salary bump with certification (AP, then AP/FP) and experience isn't huge, either -- most will probably be lucky to get into the mid $200's base salary at any point in their careers (inflation not considered), unless you make chief. That changes if you develop a good private consult business, however.

4. Reputable programs: I ditto the NYC, New Mexico, Baltimore, and Miami suggestions. New Mexico and Baltimore are just finishing brand new buildings (CT scanners, etc.), though I haven't had a chance to visit the final products yet. Dallas, Richmond, North Carolina, Atlanta.. also seem to do good work with their fellows, but I know much less about them. Some "smaller" programs are very good as well, but I'm sad to say I don't know them well enough to specifically recommend something. Generally I would ask around before agreeing to a fellowship, but if the office does a good number of cases (~1500) with a good number of homicides (in the hundreds would be nice), are accredited, and they give a good vibe then you're probably OK.

5. Programs to avoid: This is a bit of a danger zone, as programs can turn the corner very quickly. A few of the super busy programs are so overwhelmed that their training has probably suffered, but unique self-driven individuals might thrive there. I would be wary about programs that are short by several attendings but are still actively recruiting multiple fellows. And I would be wary about tiny programs only doing a few hundred total cases and fewer than ~50 total homicides -- just because your exposure will be much more limited, even if the attendings are superb and teach you well.

6. Career paths: Well, you really have little choice but to work in some sort of office with regular contracted work at least in the early years. Basically, it's extremely hard to market yourself doing nothing but consult work if you have zero experience. After a few years and developing some contacts, sure -- more money, but also more travel and more contentious cases with angrier lawyers out to make an example out of you. There are certainly differences between medical examiner and coroner systems, but based on my fleeting discussions with people (personally I've only worked in an ME system) the main difference is that as an ME your say is basically final while in a coroner system the coroner can say whatever they want regardless of what you tell them. Some forensic pathologists love the coroner system because the coroner protects them from a lot of the politics and publicity and keeps them from many administrative tasks, so long as they get along with the coroner. Others despise the coroner system because of the loss of control and a sense of over-compromising. But almost all seem to agree the coroner system in general is outdated and inappropriate, which is another topic altogether.
 
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