Washington state legistlators vote whether to eliminate spine injections 3-18-11

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Ligament

Interventional Pain Management
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Tomorrow, Friday, 3/18/11, the Washington State HTCC votes whether to eliminate spinal injections for state insured people, including policemen, teachers, and injured workers.

The HTCC has already eliminated TENS units, spinal cord stimulation, vertebroplasty, and intrathecal pumps for its insured.

If they do eliminate pain reducing spinal injections, it will induce further needless suffering for thousands of people in the state afflicted with spinal pain.

If you are a pain physician or patient who has benefitted from spinal injections, now is the time to act in support.

READ MORE:

www.painfoundation.org/washingtonstate

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I can see the Florida Pain Mill docs making their way to the great state of Washington, because I doubt the state of WA will pass legislation stating "opioids have no evidence of moderate/long-term cure of spine related disorders"... in fact, if you are in WA, now is the time to start opening your cash based pain (narcotic) practices...
 
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"have no evidence of moderate/long-term cure/QUOTE]

The fact that they use this above rational to deny treatments is appalling. That rational could be used to deny treatment for almost all of what we do as doctors, medical and surgical. Most chemotherapies don't "cure" cancer, no primary car visit for a virus "cures" the virus, many if not most back surgeries don't "cure" back pain " moderate or long term", lipitor for high cholesterol doesn't "cure" anything. This is just a way to screw people who deserve good health care coverage, plain and simple; for someone to save money on the "backs" of others, figuratively and literally. I bet these same plans don't mind covering huge long term doses of oxycontin for chronic non-malignant pain, ie, they don't care if its worse for patients as long as it's cheaper. Appalling.
 
How many LEGIT pain guys do y'all anticipate leaving Washington State because the legislature just basically **** all over our field?

A few. Those who've been on the edge will, but the most severe effect would be if no new pain docs start practices there or move there. This is the stance we should take. It will take some time, but let it be known, Washington State should be avoided at all costs. This is the only thing that has ever so slightly started to turn around the malpractice situation in certain states. When certain counties and practically entire states had no OBs or neurosurgeons, then finally, things started to change, a little bit. Its sad that politicians ignore us, and patients have to suffer, but lawyers and politicians will continue to destroy medicine and hurt patients through their stupidity, thirst for power and supposedly unintended consequences. Docs have for too long let themselves get s--t on because they're afraid to be called greedy, or more interested in $ than patients. That was fine in the days of Hippocrates and Socrates when 10 loaves of bread bought you a semester in medical school. Now, in the days post-medical school indebtedness off $200,000-$300,000+, it doesn't fly. We deserve to be paid what we deserve. We're not slaves of the state. Lets stand up for ourselves and our patients. Don't practice pain medicine in Washington State. Why should you? They won't pay us, and they won't provide the care to the patients.
 
Agree with emd,


I did some of my training in Seattle, and it's the one place in the country outside of San Francisco where several major insurance companies cover massage therapy & acupuncture. Back then it was simply nice to have other options for patients not appropriate or not responding to more traditional treatments.

In retrospect I think this is all just an extension of the hyperliberalism trend in Washington state. A confidential survey of all the closet granolas on the Washington councils would likely reveal beliefs that any pain can be eliminated with enough Reiki/meditation-

Anything else must be "polluting" the body. I'm sure that the idea to deny payments for cardiac and other well researched drugs is on the mind of at least one panel member in the state.
 
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I am sitting in the meeting now within a few feet of Bogduk, Dreyfuss, Baker, Yin, Carrino, and Rosenquist, and it is clear the process is rigged. The current topic is the long vs short term benefit of esi's, and spectrum research (to whom the state of washington paid 1.7 million dollars for a report) admits that the data they included in their report includes NON fluoroscopically guided epidurals!

They are citing the american pain society guidlines, yet ignoring one of its authors, dr rosenquist, who is sitting in the room!
 
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I'm sorry to hear about that, but if the board members ignore those respected & well-published physicians and pass this law into existence, then one of two things are happening.

1- They're all nutjob hippies as I originally theorized.

2- This is Washington's way of balancing the budget. Much as Wisconsin destroyed union pensions.

They'll be disappointed when extra thousands of state employees/insured have spine surgery instead and end up with either
1-more surgery or
2-unemployment/disability!

Let's see what that costs the state government!
 
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NOW they are debating whether caudal epidurals should be done with fluoroscopy or blind! My god, there are over twenty excellent pain docs in the room, and the REFUSE to ask our opinion, nor are we allowed to volunteer our opinions! Instead, they are asking their clinical expert, who is on the phone by the way, and he is stating fluoro and ultrasound guidance is standart of care.
 
What is the background of their clinical expert?
Ultrasound for caudals? I dont do them with U/S, not too convinced on the reliability of imaging as compared to fluoro. Yes they can be done, but fluoro is far superior.
Do they even know the difference between caudals/transforaminals/translaminars?

I agree ALL PAIN PHYSICIANS WITH INTERVENTIONAL EXPERTISE SHOULD BOYCOTT THIS STATE. Let them be the next pill mill state. Let them do acupuncture supplemented with oxy/soma/xanax.

If I recall correctly I heard a few years ago that Washington state was mandating that any patient taking more than 120 MSO4 oral equivalents in a day were required to have a pain consultation with a specialist. I think this got shot down. But if all of the pain specialists leave the state, let them deal with it. Right now Washington state is what Pennsylvania was for OB.
 
Epidurals
SIJ
--covered with conditions

Therapeutic MBB
IA facet blocks
Intradiscal steroids and methylene blue
--not covered

SCS, vetebroplasty, intrathecal pumps, TENS
--all previously eliminated
 
Therapeutic MBB are ridiculous anyway, (sorry Steve)

How limiting are the ESI conditions?

Pts must have radiculopathy/stenosis and failed PT/NSAIDs?
 
Reading this **** is so sad! If i were in the room I'd have a hard time biting my tongue. What a bunch of POS! On what grounds did they deny SCS, vertebroplasty and IDDS? We've already shown SCS is far superior to repeat surgery in our FBSS patients. And didn't a good article come out in the Lancet in support of Vplasty last year? What a crock!
 
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Ligament,

Can you clarify for me what they meant by "therapeutic MBB"...is that their simple minded way of saying they will not cover RFA?
 
Ligament,

Can you clarify for me what they meant by "therapeutic MBB"...is that their simple minded way of saying they will not cover RFA?

A mbb with steroid, most likely. Aetna does this now where I am at least--they won't pay for therapeutic facet injections only diagnostic blocks. If you bill for a steroid with your facet code, they won't pay anything.
 
so overall what is the impact of this on private practice pain in WA?

I will be moving there soon to join a private practice, looking forward to returning home . . . just not sure what I am the environment will be.
 
This is ridiculous!

Dreyfuss and Rosenquist, et al are there and there is NO input/feedback that is asked of them? Shouldnt these experts of our field be asked their thoughts?

I think it's time that ALL docs get together and stand up to this. There needs to be a cohesive and collaborative front. Physicians need to stand up to this non sense. Why are we letting legislators dictate our futures.

As someone mentioned either on this forum. Docs hate to talk about $$ because they feel they will be perceived to be greedy. However, this is our 'Achilles" heel that these legislators/nurses and everyone else uses against us!

We all deserve to be paid. You can't go to a lawyer and say that we arent going to pay them for THEIR services. We have school loans in EXCESS amounts when compared to the general population. As a result we SHOULD get paid more than the general population. It's true that no one forced us to go to med school,etc. However, who do people want being their physicians? People that were at the bottom of their college classes or people that were 'smart'? Do you want a nurse that graduated from a community college who is now a "Nurse Practioner" being your primary provider for you or your loved one?

I think these Anti-trust laws that ban physicians from collectively bargaining should be uplifted. Those were ANCIENT laws put into place when physicians were adequately compensated for their services. Times have changed and laws should as well!

Asking for proper reimbursement is not wrong! We as docs should NOT feel bad about this. Every other profession does it. We should NOT be ashamed to do the same.

Let's stand up against this nonsense....now.
 
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so overall what is the impact of this on private practice pain in WA?

I will be moving there soon to join a private practice, looking forward to returning home . . . just not sure what I am the environment will be.
If you read this entire thread, it's fairly clear that WA isn't the best place to practice pain medicine.

Similar to medicare limitations and payments, many insurers use state restrictions on pain procedures to "justify" not paying for things since it saves them money.
As the state HTCC doesn't ever pay for SCS/vertebroplasty and now will be limiting ESI/SIJ/facet procedures, you'll likely see similar further limitations from commercial carriers.

If it's home, it's home, you just need to know you'll likely have to deal with increased restrictions on what treatments you can offer patients and your income potential.

The upside to this is that the large international companies that were based in Seattle like Microsoft, Amazon, offered great coverage from what I saw, to attract top talent.

I saw some of this in training, but never practiced in the state. Maybe ligament can throw in his two cents about getting paid for SCS/pumps/vertebroplasty, etc in Seattle?
 
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If you read this entire thread, it's fairly clear that WA isn't the best place to practice pain medicine.

Similar to medicare limitations and payments, many insurers use state restrictions on pain procedures to "justify" not paying for things since it saves them money.
As the state HTCC doesn't ever pay for SCS/vertebroplasty and now will be limiting ESI/SIJ/facet procedures, you'll likely see similar further limitations from commercial carriers.

If it's home, it's home, you just need to know you'll likely have to deal with increased restrictions on what treatments you can offer patients and your income potential.

The upside to this is that the large international companies that were based in Seattle like Microsoft, Amazon, offered great coverage from what I saw, to attract top talent.

I saw some of this in training, but never practiced in the state. Maybe ligament can throw in his two cents about getting paid for SCS/pumps/vertebroplasty, etc in Seattle?

I thought they were still paying for ESI, "with conditions"?
 
NOPE! Dreyfuss, Rosenquist, Nikolai Bogduk, Ray Baker, Way Yin, Carrino are in the audience!!!!!!!!!!! and their counsul is NOT requested.
Hey Ligament

That's what I meant. It's ridiculous that their counsel wasnt requested :scared:
 
Actually, that law passed the legislature and the state boards (nursing, MD, etc.) decided on the 120 mg Morphine-equivalent dose. The thing that always gets me is that when you look at the track record, PCPs are quick to dispense the opiates and benzos and slow to refer to PT, or hell even massage or accupuncture.

Then after they've created their little frankensteins they want to dump them on one of us to deal with/"manage their pain". Wtf?

It looks like the state decided that they wanted to "deal" with their prescription drug problem by giving PCPs a "Get out of jail free card" by allowing them to get people narc'd up, but then legally dump them on us. Then, just to make sure everyone had "availability" to see this litany of disasters, they take away most of our bread and butter, to "free up our schedules" so-to-speak.

You have no obligation to continue the mistakes of others.
 
It looks like the state decided that they wanted to "deal" with their prescription drug problem by giving PCPs a "Get out of jail free card" by allowing them to get people narc'd up, but then legally dump them on us.

You can legally dump them back by saying, "Recommend tapering narcotic medications in this patient."
 
You can legally dump them back by saying, "Recommend tapering narcotic medications in this patient."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I do when insurance or the patient tries to prohibit me from doing anything else. I tell the patient - "These are your options. If you cannot do those either because your insurance won't pay or you decide you don't want to, that is fine. You can call me or come back when you would like to do something I have to offer."

Then I send a note to the referring doc telling them the same, usually adding "I do not believe long-term opioids are indicated in this patient. If you wish to taper them off I recommend reducing the dose by 15 - 20% 1-2x/week as tolerated."
 
as part of my recommendations in the consultation:

"For XYZ reasons, there is no indication currently for continued opioid analgesia. We would suggest that the prescribing physician institute a wean due to evidence of misuse/lack of functional improvement/etc. If there are issues with the wean, then addiction referral may be beneficial. The patient understands that in my role as a consultant, and due to the nature/volume of my practice, I am unable to assume the responsibility for prescribing chronic opioids. However, I would gladly re-evaluate the patient should other clinical questions arise. The patient states that he was told that I would take over his medications - and we re-explained to the patient that our referral coordinator indicated that this would not happen at the time the appointment was scheduled, this was further re-iterated to the patient by my RN when she contacted him to help complete his Medical History prior to his visit, and that no such agreement was made between the prescribing physician and myself."
 
True. And I typically do not. Otherwise, you're probably not practicing medicine. I do tend to use the "do not recommend opiates... wean wean wean" statement quite a bit. The irony being that, I feel, far too many referrers then tell the patient they "can't" prescribe any more and send the patient back to me saying "the pain doctor will have to prescribe your medications now".

I fear that our colleagues in Washington are going to see far more of that in their future.

If Pain physicians stand up as a collective in WA, then they will not have a group of pain specialists to try to dump these opioid disasters on anyways.
Then they have screwed themselves out of interventions (which can help treat pain in a non-opioid manner) AND a viable resource to help with their existing paradigm that "pain meds" are a better route to pain control. Its funny how still everyone thinks "pain meds" for chronic pain only refer to opioids.

But I agree with above, we are not obligated to inherit these disasters from PCPs being too liberal in starting pts on opioids. Its amazing how quickly they will write vicodin for a 21 year old for nonspecific back pain. There is still a lack of understanding on tolerance and the fact that most likely this 21 yo will be 55 one day.
 
as part of my recommendations in the consultation:

"For XYZ reasons, there is no indication currently for continued opioid analgesia. We would suggest that the prescribing physician institute a wean due to evidence of misuse/lack of functional improvement/etc. If there are issues with the wean, then addiction referral may be beneficial. The patient understands that in my role as a consultant, and due to the nature/volume of my practice, I am unable to assume the responsibility for prescribing chronic opioids. However, I would gladly re-evaluate the patient should other clinical questions arise. The patient states that he was told that I would take over his medications - and we re-explained to the patient that our referral coordinator indicated that this would not happen at the time the appointment was scheduled, this was further re-iterated to the patient by my RN when she contacted him to help complete his Medical History prior to his visit, and that no such agreement was made between the prescribing physician and myself."

Nicely stated...
 
Back to the topic of this thread, I would like to clarify that the clinician members of the HTCC seem to be well intentioned, but the process by which the evidence, review, and decision making is flawed as dictated to them by the state of Washington. The research report from Spectrum research was poor and costly at 1.7 million dollars. That is not the fault of the HTCC. That the HTCC is not allowed to consider the input of dozens of pain experts sitting in the room is not the fault of the HTCC. That nobody on the HTCC is an interventional pain subspecialist in not the fault of the HTCC. Rather, this is how the HTCC has been created by the state and the clinical members of the HTCC have to follow the state rules.
 
I was unable to find anything in Washington State Regulations that prevented consideration of rationally based scientific and medical input separate from their hired gun, Spectrum Research. One wonders how many experts in pain medicine were consulted by Spectrum, or was this another occupational and environmental physician Kafkaesque hatchet job?
 
Back to the topic of this thread, I would like to clarify that the clinician members of the HTCC seem to be well intentioned, but the process by which the evidence, review, and decision making is flawed as dictated to them by the state of Washington. The research report from Spectrum research was poor and costly at 1.7 million dollars. That is not the fault of the HTCC. That the HTCC is not allowed to consider the input of dozens of pain experts sitting in the room is not the fault of the HTCC. That nobody on the HTCC is an interventional pain subspecialist in not the fault of the HTCC. Rather, this is how the HTCC has been created by the state and the clinical members of the HTCC have to follow the state rules.

Money changed hands as backroom deals were made. You all got fornicated. The public forum was obviously a formality to meet documentation requirements.

Now take it to the governor.
 
Money changed hands as backroom deals were made. You all got fornicated. The public forum was obviously a formality to meet documentation requirements.

Now take it to the governor.

I agree. It's so insulting to sit in a predetermined meeting like schoolchildren. They can say "Dr. Ligament, Bogduk, etc were all present at the meeting..." Need to get the upper hand in this thing.
 
The New York Times

March 21, 2011
A Panel Decides Washington State’s Health Care Costs
By ANDREW POLLACK

SEATTLE — The health care board was in session, and Deryk Lamb was pleading for them to continue paying for the spinal injections he receives to dull the pain from a workplace injury.

“My life would be a living hell without these injections,” said Mr. Lamb, a 44-year-old carpenter from Lake Stevens, Wash., who was crushed between two trucks in 1996. “I don’t deserve to be sentenced by a committee to a life of agony.”

Mr. Lamb was testifying on Friday before Washington State’s Health Technology Assessment committee. The committee has authority under state law to determine which medical devices and procedures Washington will cover for state employees, Medicaid patients and injured workers, about 750,000 people in all.

While all states, private insurers and the federal Medicare program decide what to cover, this state’s program is attracting nationwide attention, in part because its process is public and open. That provides a living laboratory of the complexities of applying evidence-based medicine, something that is becoming more common as a way to rein in health care costs.

“This kind of scrutiny is increasingly the norm, rather than the exception,” said Dan Mendelson, chief executive of Avalere Health, a consulting firm that follows state and federal health programs. Washington State’s effort, he said, was “unique in the size and breadth of it.”

The program is also drawing attention because it explicitly considers the cost of treatments in making its decisions, akin to Britain’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence.

That similarity alone has made the Washington program the target of criticism from opponents of the new federal health care legislation. Last Friday, The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board, a longtime opponent of the federal law, called Washington State’s process a harbinger of limitation of choice that it said would result from the national health care overhaul, which includes undertaking efforts to compare the effectiveness of different therapies.

Criticism is also coming from doctors and manufacturers hurt by the decisions.

An editorial in one medical journal in the pain-control field equated one of the committee’s decisions to waterboarding and other forms of torture, showing a photograph of a chair with numerous metal blades protruding from it.

Medical device manufacturers are lobbying for changes in the program.

“I think there is evidence that other states look at what they do,” said Rob Clark, senior director for state government affairs at Medtronic, who attended Friday’s meeting.

Before that meeting, the committee, created by a 2006 law that had bipartisan support, had ruled on 21 devices or procedures, rejecting coverage for about half of them, including arthroscopic knee surgery and calcium scoring for cardiac disease. Virtual colonoscopy was rejected explicitly because it cost more than conventional colonoscopy.

The other procedures, including routine ultrasound in pregnancy and hip resurfacing, were accepted, although the board set conditions on which type of patients would qualify.

The decisions made so far were expected to save the state $31.8 million annually, of several billions spent on health care. But at a time when the state’s Medicaid program has eliminated most vision and dental benefits for adults, every bit helps, program officials said.

Leah Hole-Curry, director of the program, defended its actions, saying they did not amount to rationing of health care.

“Rationing is where you know you need something and without it you are going to suffer but there’s not enough to go around,” she offered as a definition. In this case, she said, the program denied coverage for procedures that have simply not been shown to work.

“It’s still pretty astounding that we have individuals who say we don’t want you to look at scientific evidence in deciding how to spend taxpayer dollars,” she said.

Until recently, at least, the program had not generated much controversy within the state. “The decisions have been pretty balanced and we have not had a lot of apprehension among our members,” said Dr. Dean Martz, president of the Washington State Medical Association, which represents 9,000 doctors. But Friday’s meeting, held in a conference room one level above the ticket counters at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, raised concerns among local and national medical experts.

First was a review of home blood glucose testing for children with insulin-dependent diabetes. An assessment of clinical trials prepared by a company called Spectrum Research — the “evidence vendor” in the program’s parlance — found virtually no proof that testing more than five times a day improved health. But diabetes organizations and experts testified that this was because it would be unethical to do a trial in which some children were not allowed to test themselves frequently.

“Don’t mix up evidence-based medicine with ignorance-based medicine,” Dr. Irl B. Hirsch, a professor at the University of Washington, who is a consultant for various companies, told the committee.

Melinda Woods said her 14-year-old son needed to check his glucose at meal times, snack times, when playing sports and in the middle of the night. “Right there you are looking at seven or eight checks a day,” she said.

The committee — seven doctors, a nurse, a speech pathologist, a chiropractor and a naturopathic physician — voted unanimously to cover finger prick tests with no daily limit. It voted to cover continuous glucose monitors mainly for children considered most at risk of a dangerous incident of low blood sugar.

The afternoon session on spinal cord injections was even more contentious. In the last few years, the Health Technology Assessment program has denied coverage to several pain-related procedures and devices, including spinal cord stimulation and pumps that deliver medication to the spinal cord.

“They’ve basically decimated my practice, everything that I do that has value,” said Dr. Arthur Watanabe, an interventional pain specialist in Spokane.

Spinal injections, usually of steroids or anesthetics, are commonly used by pain specialists. Indeed, even some doctors acknowledge the injections are overused to generate income, as has been pointed out by two reports in recent years from the Office of Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services. Washington State agencies spent about $15 million on the injections in 2009, at an average cost of $336 a procedure.

Pain specialists said denials of coverage for injections would force patients to use opioids or to undergo expensive back surgery, which is covered by the program. Eleven medical societies cooperated on comments opposing a denial of coverage, arguing, among other things, that other insurers covered many of the injections.

Experts from as far away as Australia testified at the meeting. About 30 patients, relatives and doctors, some lured by fliers placed in doctors’ waiting rooms, demonstrated outside the meeting room on Friday. But despite the big recruitment effort, only two patients who receive injections covered by the state program testified, one of which was Mr. Lamb.

The 299-page review by the evidence vendor found dozens of clinical trials of various types of spinal injections. Often, the trials did not show that the injections helped reduce pain or improve physical functioning compared with a placebo.

The pain specialists argued that clinical trials should not be the only criteria for coverage decisions. “Published evidence does not exist in a vacuum but must be considered in a clinical context,” Dr. Way Yin, a pain specialist from Bellingham, told the committee.

A big criticism made by the pain doctors, and also by the medical device companies, is that the committee lacks experts in the field being studied and therefore cannot judge the value of therapies. It did appear that most committee members were not familiar with the dizzying array of different spinal injections. Ms. Hole-Curry, the program director, asserted that having experts testify in public, rather than sit on the committee, was essential to avoiding undue influence from specialists and manufacturers.

“It’s very different from having a specialty group come in and say here’s a report that supports our perspective,” she said. In voting that dragged on until the early evening, the committee decided to cover some types of injections, with certain restrictions, and not to cover others.

“Some coverage is better than no coverage,” Dr. Yin said after the meeting. But the process, he said, “can be improved.”
 
while this sucks... there is nothing stopping the patient from paying cash for their treatment...

why is it understandable that patients will pony up 22-44k for surgical treatment at Laser Spine Institute, but not comprehensible that a patient will pay $400 for spine injection...

agreed that the medicaid and injured workers will not pony up the cash... however, this same patient population spends that much money easily on cigarettes for 2 months.
 
while this sucks... there is nothing stopping the patient from paying cash for their treatment...

why is it understandable that patients will pony up 22-44k for surgical treatment at Laser Spine Institute, but not comprehensible that a patient will pay $400 for spine injection...

agreed that the medicaid and injured workers will not pony up the cash... however, this same patient population spends that much money easily on cigarettes for 2 months.

Probably the Laser place offers financing...

In my state, it is illegal to try to collect cash from a Work Comp or Medcaid patient.
 
while this sucks... there is nothing stopping the patient from paying cash for their treatment...

why is it understandable that patients will pony up 22-44k for surgical treatment at Laser Spine Institute, but not comprehensible that a patient will pay $400 for spine injection...

agreed that the medicaid and injured workers will not pony up the cash... however, this same patient population spends that much money easily on cigarettes for 2 months.

why? because laser surgery "cures" while injections are "temporary bandaids"
 
Probably the Laser place offers financing...

In my state, it is illegal to try to collect cash from a Work Comp or Medcaid patient.

I don't that would apply if your state did not cover these procedures, I would think you could collect cash from anyone. As far as medicaid, if you do not participate in Medicaid, I think you can charge them cash, right? However in my experience, medicaid patients typically only want drugs, which "luckily" is still covered in Washington state....
 
I don't that would apply if your state did not cover these procedures, I would think you could collect cash from anyone. As far as medicaid, if you do not participate in Medicaid, I think you can charge them cash, right? However in my experience, medicaid patients typically only want drugs, which "luckily" is still covered in Washington state....

With WC here, if coverage for a procedure is denied, but the patient contests it, you can do the procedure and you can A) hold the bill and not send it to anyone, B) Send it to WC to be denied and later appealed, C) Bill their group insurance, but cannot collect co-pays, deductibles, etc. It's a no-win. You cannot ask for cash for a WC pt who's treatment is either approved or in dispute, in this state.

For Medicaid you cannot see them for cash. You must bill Medicaid. We are only allowed to collect the $2 co-pay for specialist visits (And it is incredible how many cannot find two $1 bills to rub together in their wallet, but the can by smokes...). I've even had the case where I saw a pt for cash, then they got on Medicaid, it was made retro-active, and I had to reimburse the pt what they paid me, and then bill Medicaid to be paid at their much lower rates, if at all.
 
1) Work-comp - in my state I cannot charge the patient ANYTHING --- I can bill the patient's work comp and be denied - the lawyer can then include that in the settlement --- but by the time work comp settles, odds are the lawyer won't mention it to you and just pocket the cash...

2) Medicaid - in my state I cannot charge them ANYTHING... In fact, I cannot even see out of state Medicaid pro-bono (even if I wanted to...). ANYTHING that is paid for in cash by Medicaid HAS to be reimbursed. I cannot offer ANYTHING that is not a covered procedure.... stupid rule
 
is anybody starting to see the benefits of backing an organization more politically motivated and more motivated to continue getting us reimbursed in ASIPP?
 
is anybody starting to see the benefits of backing an organization more politically motivated and more motivated to continue getting us reimbursed in ASIPP?
Exactly my thoughts

Check out the ASIPP meetings brochure online.

People can have their beef with some of the organization's leadership...that's only natural. However, if you look at their brochure, there are TONS of academic guys on it now as speakers and the such.

Political action is imperative, now more than ever. Time to drop the differences and coalesce behind ONE Pain organization that has been more politically active in the past. Remember, divided WE ALL fall...
 
I think people who believe ASIPP is the only politically active organization are completely ill-informed and do not understand how politics works. It takes an effort of many organizations that have a much wider membership than any single organization to move the politics in any meaningful way. The Noridian effort in which the 12 coalition organizations prevailed in their views being adopted represented 140,000 physicians. A small single organization does not have any significant impact, unless it works with larger organizations. THAT is how politics works in the realm of reimbursement and preservation of the specialty of pain medicine.
 
I think people who believe ASIPP is the only politically active organization are completely ill-informed and do not understand how politics works. It takes an effort of many organizations that have a much wider membership than any single organization to move the politics in any meaningful way. The Noridian effort in which the 12 coalition organizations prevailed in their views being adopted represented 140,000 physicians. A small single organization does not have any significant impact, unless it works with larger organizations. THAT is how politics works in the realm of reimbursement and preservation of the specialty of pain medicine.

But ASIPP has the perception of being the ONLY politically active pain representation. AAPMed, ISIS, Southern Pain Society- they are seen as just being there, ASIPP throws the money around. Until the perception changes that the Org's work together or that ISIS and AAPMed are working with lobbyists, than ASIPP for $$$ and ISIS so we can defend it with science.

The above post based on my slanted viewpoints and casual observations. I am in the Steve Pain Society. It is a philanthropic organization that deals with ethics and interventions, opiates and the law, disability and you are not.
Accepting new members. Mail me two things off your desk that are not on my desk, and I'll send you a sticker. Nothing of significant value can change hands.
 
When it comes to chest thumping, no one does it better than ASIPP, and indeed they throw money around to politicians. But politics goes far beyond political contributions. Most major decisions are not made by politicians who establish laws. The decisions that directly affect us are regulations, which are interpretation of those laws. Even more poignant, are the mid level decisions made by insurers and Medicare. Political contributions have no effect at this level, the level that really matters. ISIS, AAPM, AAPMR, ASR, ASA, ASRA, NASS, and a host of other relevant organizations recognize this reality and work diligently and continuously behind the scenes to affect change. Our impact at this level is huge and far exceeds that of any single organization that wants to go its own way. ASIPP is important to pain medicine because of perception....we need an organization that is overtly dabbling in buying off politicians via political contributions and in working with other organizations in legal skirmishes. But the crux of the work that impacts coverage and reimbursement is done at a completely different level that is not advertised by any of the other organizations. We need ASIPP for the perception of political advocacy but we equally need large coalitions in order to have any significant impact at the regulatory level. One small pain organization cannot have impact at this level, therefore we must operate via coalitions. It is far more useful to have all pain organizations sit down at the table and cooperate together than having 12 going one direction and one going a different direction, criticizing the others in print. Hopefully the future will be brighter for pain medicine if there can be organizational cooperation. But the point is, we need all these organizations. Throwing all the support behind a single small pain organization is futile, especially when the decisions on coverage and reimbursement are far more expansive than the view of a single organization.
 
Money talks and bull---t walks. Politicians and corporations (insurance included) react to one thing and one this alone: money. Physicians have historically received honors in whining and complainng and "Fail" in donating cash to politicians. Attorneys give a vastly greater proportion of their income to politicians than physicians do and that's why they lead and we follow and beg for scraps. Mega-corporations also donate to both parties, both candidates in a race, why? Because they're crazy and just want to cancel out their own vote? No, because no matter who's elected, they have a voice. Politicians care this much about science and academic papers: ZERO. In fact, if your paper isn't backed up by cash, and a lot of it, frankly they laugh. It's just babble talk from people who want help, but don't want to help them, and they help the people who got them elected instead. You don't think that the politicians know who's in the room, and how much their "people" have donated? Of course they do. Five or six academic heavy weights can't do a darn thing if we haven't written the check for the max amount. State and local races are just as important as national. You get the most bang for your buck early in a primary election. Let's get out the check books. Its that simple. The science is only as strong as the cash that backs it.
 
When it comes to chest thumping, no one does it better than ASIPP, and indeed they throw money around to politicians. But politics goes far beyond political contributions. Most major decisions are not made by politicians who establish laws. The decisions that directly affect us are regulations, which are interpretation of those laws. Even more poignant, are the mid level decisions made by insurers and Medicare. Political contributions have no effect at this level, the level that really matters. ISIS, AAPM, AAPMR, ASR, ASA, ASRA, NASS, and a host of other relevant organizations recognize this reality and work diligently and continuously behind the scenes to affect change. Our impact at this level is huge and far exceeds that of any single organization that wants to go its own way. ASIPP is important to pain medicine because of perception....we need an organization that is overtly dabbling in buying off politicians via political contributions and in working with other organizations in legal skirmishes. But the crux of the work that impacts coverage and reimbursement is done at a completely different level that is not advertised by any of the other organizations. We need ASIPP for the perception of political advocacy but we equally need large coalitions in order to have any significant impact at the regulatory level. One small pain organization cannot have impact at this level, therefore we must operate via coalitions. It is far more useful to have all pain organizations sit down at the table and cooperate together than having 12 going one direction and one going a different direction, criticizing the others in print. Hopefully the future will be brighter for pain medicine if there can be organizational cooperation. But the point is, we need all these organizations. Throwing all the support behind a single small pain organization is futile, especially when the decisions on coverage and reimbursement are far more expansive than the view of a single organization.

This is the most important. However, every organization thinks they are right. That's why it's very difficult to do this.

Also....the name "Pain Management" is so vague. For example. If you look at the AAPM journal, most of the articles are PMR/Psych/alternative med based things with sprinklings of interventional techniques.

RAPM/ASRA journal and ASIPP's journal are more anesthesiology based and interventional.

So clearly, all the NON-anesthesia folks herald AAPM as the "gold standard". Anestehsia folks think ASRA/ASIPP are better. I'm still not sure where ISIS falls in.

So....this is the problem. This is how "they" divide and conquer the specialty of Pain Medicine. Every pain practioner goes and supports the group where more of their buddies or primary specialty counterparts dominate.
 
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Interesting perspectives since political contributions have little to do with our reimbursement and those elected with political contributions from doctors do not always behave in a rational manner. For instance, the governor of Florida (a republican) blocking the implementation of a state wide prescription tracking program. Do you really think doctors gave hundreds of thousands to his campaign expecting he would block one of the primary tools used by physicians nationwide to combat substance abuse and keep their practices clean? Or what about the legislature and executive branch in Colorado defunding the same type of program? Republicans voted against physicians several times in the last year when the sustained growth formula was being debated causing significant disruptions in income flow and increasing patient anxiety across the country. And the democrats were simply playing shell games with health care financing using an assumption that the sustained growth formula would not be changed and therefore their obamacare bill would be budget neutral or produce a decrease in costs of 100 billion dollars over 10 years.
On a macro level, I just don't see the results that people are assuming is occurring by pumping money into the coffers of politicians that may privately and in vote, hold radically different views than the physicians helping to re-elect them. Do we have any outcome studies to show this money is indeed buying the influence and behavior we hope that it is? If not, perhaps spending money through the judicial branch would be a better value.
Notwithstanding all of this, the real work is being done by the coalitions at the mid level, regardless of who is elected. Your political contributions have nothing to do with moving this entrenched layer of government that does indeed care about the scientific outcomes. The lack of scientific information hurts us at the insurance level (also isolation from political influence or contributions). Our problem in pain medicine is that we have been so callous about the inevitable continuation of epidural steroids that we have failed to generate the fundamental studies needed to support the profession. I agree politicians do not give a flip about scientific studies but the midlevels do give a flip if the basic scientific studies are not forthcoming.
The disarray in pain medicine is being capitalized upon by those that would like nothing more than to see it go away. The coalition of Pain Medicine is the most potent weapon we have ever developed against complete evisceration of the specialty. The coalition is where the rubber meets the road but if it helps one to feel more empowered by buying a legislator the that perception is also important, yet such contributions can occasionally backfire. I would suggest tabs on the voting record of those supported by contributions.....
 
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