WashU vs. UMichigan vs. UNC vs. MGH

[DocBJC]

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WashU vs. UMichigan vs. UNC vs. MGH

Hello everybody. I am having trouble deciding between these four programs.

I am couples matching and will stay in the same city as my residency for more than 3 years because of my significant other's residency. My career goals are to go on to fellowship (PICU, NICU or cardiology) and to stay in academics, and it seems that most residents from Wash U, Michigan, and UNC tend to stay local after residency. We do not have family in any of these locations, so there is no pull to any of these places. It is also difficult to picture ourselves in a new city without our familiar network, though I am sure that we will have no problem starting a new network.

I was hoping for more feedback/discussion about the details of the programs from current residents or medical students or from current or previous applicants.

Here are some of my thoughts (my specific concerns have been underlined):

• Wash U
  • pros: Funniest PD who has been there since his residency - seems like residents would have a good relationship with him, very nice children's hospital, transport opportunity as third year resident; can easily walk to work; senior residents run rounds; main hospital in area; COPE continuity clinic; low cost of living; nice medical campus
  • cons: residents don't seem to care about didactics and interns have morning report only 1x/wk (they are open that they don't feel like going because they are so busy); very high volume (admit 10-15pts/night), tons of cross-cover; serves a large patient population though mostly underserved; limited selection of quality ethnic restaurants compared to other cities
• UMichigan
  • pros: nice children's hospital; best EMR; diverse population (mix of upper class, 30% medicaid); seems to be a better city than St. Louis in terms of culture, low-cost of living, easy commute; great daily morning report (i think interns were present); nice medical campus; house officers union
  • cons: wasn't sure about the relationship of PD with residents as she is new to the position and perhaps less extroverted than others; very snowy/cold winters; new hospital will be opening in 2012 but it could be a frustrating adjustment
• UNC
  • pros: PD very kind and grandfatherly (a UNC lifer, but not sure how much longer he plans to be with program); great daily morning report that interns and even med students can participate; nice medical campus; best weather of the four programs; Research Triangle as much to offer and most residents own homes
  • cons: mostly medicaid pts? ER closes from 1am to 8am so kids go to adult ER because there is a separate trauma service one hour drive to Moses Cone but it seems like residents can get a few hours of sleep there & the day starts later; I personally liked it better than Duke, but unsure if it is perceived as "academic" as other programs, given my plans to stay in academics
• MGH
  • pros: PD and associate PD were both very friendly and energetic; great daily morning report where residents can attend; harvard students take overnight call - might be able to help with overnight work and more opportunities to teach; not free-standing but it didn't bother me because of dedicated pediatrics services and rotations at community hospitals; Boston has so much culture; impressive fellowship placements, though the list lumps several year results together, so it's hard to tell who goes where each year.
  • cons: my biggest concern is that they may be overshadowed by Children's of Boston...please clarify! also, peds ER disorganized and only 5 beds; mostly upper-class patients except for Northshore; one hour drive to one of the community hospitals; No call schedule was provided, so I am not sure how many call-free months are allotted each year.

Please feel free to correct me if my impressions are inaccurate. Some of the details are a little hazy now. I know that MGH has many private patients, but can't remember if the other programs do or don't.

Thanks for your help.

 

[CrazyPeds527]

I can speak to 3 of the 4 (I did not interview at MGH).
These are only from the perspective from a former applicant who knows medical students from these programs.

I can tell you this: those specialities you mentioned (NICU, PICU, Cardiology) will all be match-able from these locations, so that is not a concern. All of these places have strong departments in all 3 (although I wonder how much tertiary zebras in PICU Mass Gen sees with Boston Children's down the street; the cardiology may be a problem there...but again, I have no personal experience so I will let other more knowledgeable people speak about it.

WashU
- The didactic thing is a big issue. The residents when I was there openly admitted they didn't care about conference, they didn't "learn that way." The volume is much less of an issue than cross cover was for the people I met, as well as the # of call months as a 3rd year.
- My wife lived in St. Louis for a while, and she will tell you the ethnic food is there, you just have to look for it 🙂

UMich
- Only thing I would wonder about here is the cachement area...does a lot of "bread and butter" go to Detroit Childrens? Your other issues are unknown to me; there is an SDNer named Complications who I believe is a resident there and can probably comment a fair amount about this
- Regarding the snowy winter: you get used to it 😀

UNC
- People in academia perceive this program well from what I have seen (ask where the residents have gone to fellowship; you will get a solid list)
- The moses cone thing was always spun as a positive from the residents, but i found it a tough sell (never the less, this was a high-rank for me)
- I perceived this program as a good mix of tertiary care and bread/butter despite the "medicaid load" as a resident described to me.

This is more for ALL applicants this time of year, here is the deal: all programs are going to have stuff you will like, and stuff you won't. Figure out the city you want to live, in addition to the place where you felt you fit in the best. With this list, you really can't go wrong, and if you are looking to decide which "program is truly better", you may be nit-picking. UNLESS you are talking about "program better for your learning style". Oh, and one other thing: don't over-analyze stuff, peds residents are a mostly open and happy group and we want you to be happy when you get somehwere. So we won't lie to you; feel free to email residents from those programs about your concern...if they dont respond to you or dodge your questions, THEN worry 🙂

~Good luck!

 

[RachMD2B]

My vote is for UNC!!! (Of course, I am a resident there, so I may be a bit biased! 😀 )

However, I did interview at 3 of the 4 you mentioned (not MGH) and I really considered Michigan (I went there for undergrad). So the things that stand out to me about UNC, compared to other programs are...

1. The friendly atmosphere! Everyone is so nice here, and it is genuine! Coming from the north, this was a pleasant surprise for me!
2. The program is VERY focussed on resident education...if it isnt going to be educational, we don't do it (ie Ward team coordinators do appt scheduling, and most of the "scut" work).
3. The wonderful basic peds training we get at Cone and Wake (definitely worth the drive!!!)
4. The sense of family among all the residents (of all classes)...we all know each other well and really feel a bond with each other.

Anyway, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about UNC or residency in general!! Good luck!!!

 

[buffah]

No call schedule was provided, so I am not sure how many call-free months are allotted each year.

From my notes:

• PL-1: call-free Newborn nursery month

• PL-2 and 3: 6 wks call-free elective

5-6wks of backup call each year

 

[Amoeba]

• Wash U
  • cons: residents don't seem to care about didactics and interns have morning report only 1x/wk (they are open that they don't feel like going because they are so busy); .

WashU
- The didactic thing is a big issue. The residents when I was there openly admitted they didn't care about conference, they didn't "learn that way."

I did for the most part like the program and the people I met there (agree that the PD seems terrific, one of my favorites that I met out there), but I had the same concern about Wash U, and it seems to be kind of a widespread impression. It's especially glaring because the conferences and didactics appear to me to be significant strengths at all the other programs I plan on ranking highly. (And these are other programs of similar size and caliber, where residents are also pretty busy seeing patients and taking care of floor work...so I don't especially like the answer of 'we learn more from patient care.' It seems to me that even with high patient volumes and learning on the floor, there is a place for strong conferences).

I really liked a lot of what I saw there; this was the only real minus. Did anyone have a different experience while interviewing there? Or any residents around who can comment? Anyone out there think it's not as big a deal as the three of us are making it? They do well on boards, after all, and it's not like there seems to be any doubt about graduates being competent, well prepared, and entering great fellowships. So I'm not quite sure what to make of it, though I'm having a hard time totally getting over it. I kind of like conferences.

 

[buffah]

It's especially glaring because the conferences and didactics appear to me to be significant strengths at all the other programs I plan on ranking highly.

Anyone out there think it's not as big a deal as the three of us are making it? They do well on boards, after all, and it's not like there seems to be any doubt about graduates being competent, well prepared, and entering great fellowships. So I'm not quite sure what to make of it, though I'm having a hard time totally getting over it.

Hey I am glad that you guys have brought this up, because it bothered me as well and I don't know what weight didactics should have in my ranking. In a way, didactics seemed like tangible evidence of devoted time to resident education, and a nice view of the relationship between residents and faculty. On the other hand, I really do feel like most of my learning through 3rd and 4th year has been through patient care and many lectures/morning report to be inefficient. (I also wonder how tired I may be as a resident and end up zoning out/napping during conference anyway...Or maybe just too busy to attend...)

 

[CarleneM]

hey- i'm an HMS IV applying in psychiatry and hoping to do pediatrics during the intern year (MGH peds has 2 spots in the intern year for psych residents). Anyways, yes med students do take call overnight. I'm not sure it is super helpful on the non-ICU inpatient floors- the nightfloat takes all the admissions after a certain hour (10 or 11, I forget) and basically after "midnight rounds", the intern sends the med student to bed and wakes them up if there is something exciting. The intern takes care of the random pages from nurses and it seemed like they often got a little sleep too. In the PICU and the NICU, med students play are larger role. There is a lot of teaching for everyone, students and residents. I did my core peds clerkship there (inpatient and ED) and a sub-i mainly in the PICU so please feel free to PM me with any questions. We saw our fair share of zebras (in my limited time there I saw Wilson's disease, random metabolic disorders, Edward's syndrome, MELAS, Kawasaki) as well as bread and butter. The peds ED is quite small but there are often peds patients being treated in the main ED so you are busy enough there. Also, MGH has a large catchment area and it is certainly not just upper-class patients. The community sites also provide a lot of diversity. I think it is a great program, though since I am not applying in peds, I don't have a basis for comparison.

WashU vs. UMichigan vs. UNC vs. MGH

[*]MGH

• pros: PD and associate PD were both very friendly and energetic; great daily morning report where residents can attend; harvard students take overnight call - might be able to help with overnight work and more opportunities to teach; not free-standing but it didn't bother me because of dedicated pediatrics services and rotations at community hospitals; Boston has so much culture; impressive fellowship placements, though the list lumps several year results together, so it's hard to tell who goes where each year.
• cons: my biggest concern is that they may be overshadowed by Children's of Boston...please clarify! also, peds ER disorganized and only 5 beds; mostly upper-class patients except for Northshore; one hour drive to one of the community hospitals; No call schedule was provided, so I am not sure how many call-free months are allotted each year.

[/LIST]

Please feel free to correct me if my impressions are inaccurate. Some of the details are a little hazy now. I know that MGH has many private patients, but can't remember if the other programs do or don't.

Thanks for your help.

 

[elr1983]

hey- i'm an HMS IV applying in psychiatry and hoping to do pediatrics during the intern year (MGH peds has 2 spots in the intern year for psych residents). Anyways, yes med students do take call overnight. I'm not sure it is super helpful on the non-ICU inpatient floors- the nightfloat takes all the admissions after a certain hour (10 or 11, I forget) and basically after "midnight rounds", the intern sends the med student to bed and wakes them up if there is something exciting. The intern takes care of the random pages from nurses and it seemed like they often got a little sleep too. In the PICU and the NICU, med students play are larger role. There is a lot of teaching for everyone, students and residents. I did my core peds clerkship there (inpatient and ED) and a sub-i mainly in the PICU so please feel free to PM me with any questions. We saw our fair share of zebras (in my limited time there I saw Wilson's disease, random metabolic disorders, Edward's syndrome, MELAS, Kawasaki) as well as bread and butter. The peds ED is quite small but there are often peds patients being treated in the main ED so you are busy enough there. Also, MGH has a large catchment area and it is certainly not just upper-class patients. The community sites also provide a lot of diversity. I think it is a great program, though since I am not applying in peds, I don't have a basis for comparison.

Not to get too far off topic, but how do you like living in Boston? Do you feel it's possible to have a nice-ish apartment in a desirable area and have some money left over for going out? I've come to accept the vacations are not going to be possible, but I don't want to be eating ramen on the floor of my roach infested studio and commuting an hour each way.....

 

[CarleneM]

Not to get too far off topic, but how do you like living in Boston? Do you feel it's possible to have a nice-ish apartment in a desirable area and have some money left over for going out? I've come to accept the vacations are not going to be possible, but I don't want to be eating ramen on the floor of my roach infested studio and commuting an hour each way.....

I think Boston is great and relatively affordable compared with NYC and San Francisco. It is, of course, more expensive than the other places the OP is considering. That being said, as a med student, I live in a great 2BR +study apartment in Brookline (great area) and pay $875 for my share, which includes a parking space and heat/hot water. My apartment is a 10 min walk from Children's Hospital and it takes 20 min to drive and park at MGH. I think most people who go to MGH either live in Cambridge/Somerville or right around the hospital. You would have money for going out and vacations. Most residents seem to go on nice vacations. Even as a med student I am able to go to fancy restaurants a couple times a month. The salaries of boston programs are reasonable high (partners PGY1 was ~$52K last year). I mean I think if you were thinking of buying a house, Boston is going to be tough, but other than that it is quite feasible. Take a look on Craigslist to get a better sense.