- Joined
- Mar 28, 2018
- Messages
- 39
- Reaction score
- 55
Last edited:
WashU vs. Yale vs. Pritzker vs. CCLCM
- Thread starter indecisiveconvention
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,052
- Reaction score
- 131
washu hands down
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2012
- Messages
- 450
- Reaction score
- 531
First just some advice about the thought process given what you shared:
1) lots of variables to consider when thinking about a Med school, but I wouldn't try to interpret match lists so much. You never know the story behind them, and all those schools match incredibly well not only to all parts of the country, but also into really competative specialties. The only thing to think about is Yale is east coast and *may* have an easier time at east coast institutions, so if you're dead set on staying east coast maybe weigh that in, but even then all those places can get you where you want.
2) Also, as you think through things, notice the inconsistencies in your thought process (I.e. Yale research year=great residency app, cclcm research year=loss of attending salary, etc). Maybe it's underlying preferences coming out, which is great because then you know what you want and can select a school accordingly.
3) How important is research to you? There is research at each of those insitutions, but obviously CCLCM has that as their focus, so it would be silly to go there if you're just "meh" about it.
4) All the hospital systems are great, and all will have fellows. As a Med student, you'll likely have similar responsibilities at all of them. Instead of worrying about a hospital being fellow-run (more important for a residency applicant to consider), might be worth looking at the variety of clinical sites available at each school (i.e associated with a public hospital? Associated with a VA? How many sites within the hospital system? Diversity of patients within each site? Etc)
Ultimately I wouldn't pay more to go to pritzker or Yale, so would come down to wash u and CCLCM for me. At that point it's six of one and half a dozen of another, so I'd go with the city you like more, which preclinical curriculum you liked more, and where you gelled the most with other students.
1) lots of variables to consider when thinking about a Med school, but I wouldn't try to interpret match lists so much. You never know the story behind them, and all those schools match incredibly well not only to all parts of the country, but also into really competative specialties. The only thing to think about is Yale is east coast and *may* have an easier time at east coast institutions, so if you're dead set on staying east coast maybe weigh that in, but even then all those places can get you where you want.
2) Also, as you think through things, notice the inconsistencies in your thought process (I.e. Yale research year=great residency app, cclcm research year=loss of attending salary, etc). Maybe it's underlying preferences coming out, which is great because then you know what you want and can select a school accordingly.
3) How important is research to you? There is research at each of those insitutions, but obviously CCLCM has that as their focus, so it would be silly to go there if you're just "meh" about it.
4) All the hospital systems are great, and all will have fellows. As a Med student, you'll likely have similar responsibilities at all of them. Instead of worrying about a hospital being fellow-run (more important for a residency applicant to consider), might be worth looking at the variety of clinical sites available at each school (i.e associated with a public hospital? Associated with a VA? How many sites within the hospital system? Diversity of patients within each site? Etc)
Ultimately I wouldn't pay more to go to pritzker or Yale, so would come down to wash u and CCLCM for me. At that point it's six of one and half a dozen of another, so I'd go with the city you like more, which preclinical curriculum you liked more, and where you gelled the most with other students.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 483
- Reaction score
- 767
I’d go with either Yale or CCLCM simply because they have no rankings, grades, shelf exams, or AOA unlike Wash U and Pritzker. From what I’ve heard these things make a huge difference in your quality of life as a medical student and to me they would easily be worth more money.
I don’t think Wash U is more prestigious than any of the other schools. I personally didn’t like their traditional curriculum either. Not sure where you heard the clinical training would be better but between these schools they will be the same. Your listing of ranking differences as a significant factor is kind of absurd.
I don’t think Wash U is more prestigious than any of the other schools. I personally didn’t like their traditional curriculum either. Not sure where you heard the clinical training would be better but between these schools they will be the same. Your listing of ranking differences as a significant factor is kind of absurd.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2016
- Messages
- 631
- Reaction score
- 740
Yeah I'd echo WashU but may also consider CCLCM. Those scholarships are pretty sweet and Cleveland and STL aren't that bad. You'd be able to match anywhere with these schools depending on your Step 1 score. Haven't taken step myself, but I'm under the impression you'd be more likely to succeed in a place you're happier (not stressing about money for example) and already have a support system. I'm assuming you have friends/family around STL since you went to UG there, but I could be wrong.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2014
- Messages
- 221
- Reaction score
- 204
A good majority of students at CCLCM match at competitive specialties so that’s probably why not everyone is getting their first choice. Lot of derm (~1/6 of class this year - if i recall), ortho, ent, etc.
See which curriculum and environment you think you will enjoy more. Just saying no ranking and no grades makes it really relaxed. I like knowing everyone personally in such a small class size. WashU is well-regarded from my understanding so I don’t think you would have trouble matching to the coasts.
See which curriculum and environment you think you will enjoy more. Just saying no ranking and no grades makes it really relaxed. I like knowing everyone personally in such a small class size. WashU is well-regarded from my understanding so I don’t think you would have trouble matching to the coasts.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2016
- Messages
- 645
- Reaction score
- 930
Eliminate Pritzker and Yale since they're far more expensive and, imo, less prestigious than Washu and CCLCM. If you're very interested in research, go to CCLCM - if you're more interested in practicing clinical medicine, choose WashU.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2013
- Messages
- 826
- Reaction score
- 1,071
Go where you will be the happiest/most successful. I had a similar choice and went with Yale and I can say that the no grades/AOA/shelf/exams etc. has been amazing. All are very similar in terms of medical community reputation/residency options. Major difference is if you are not top of the class or top quartile/AOA at schools with grades it looks bad. CCLM and Yale don’t compare you which is amazing come match time. Again, go where you will be happiest and the most successful you can be wherever that is for you.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2014
- Messages
- 14,146
- Reaction score
- 22,788
Are you down to be in a class size that small at CCLCM? Would you be the type to get stressed out all the time about your quartile/class rank at WashU? I feel like those are the two big deciding factors.
You should be deciding b/w washu and chicago and lean towards washu due to the scholarship. Cclcm is a very small class and pbl which imo isn't very beneficial for learning the basic science during the preclinical years. Also, you are losing 1 yr and class attendance is mandatory and the quality of the match lists don't justify that extra yr. Yale is amazing but the coa is higher and new haven is bleh. Chicago is like washu with a trad curriculum but there are no grades or internal rankings with a relaxed environment but not as much as Yale. I think the med students at chicago and yale are a little spoiled but in a good way.
What is this quartile/class rank at WUSM you speak of? I'm unfamiliar with this, but I imagine it is something I should consider in trying to decide if WUSM is the right place for me.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2014
- Messages
- 14,146
- Reaction score
- 22,788
Wustl SOM no longer awards honors during preclinical, but does still report relative performance in the deans letter (aka MSPE).
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 483
- Reaction score
- 767
Yes, and this would be a deal breaker for me personally. I'm not sure how comparing students within an already highly accomplished cohort can be beneficial at all for student quality-of-life. Pritzker seems to be similar. You are an incredibly privileged position to choose between two phenomenal schools (CCLCM and Yale) that don't have any grades/comparisons/AOA -- one of which is free. Take advantage of that opportunity.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2014
- Messages
- 14,146
- Reaction score
- 22,788
One caveat though before letting preclinical grading turn you off of a school - residency directors rank preclinical grades pretty low on the totem pole of factors they consider in residency interviewing and ranking. Your step1 and clinical grades are both far more important. So going to WashU and treating it as true pass/fail preclinical might work out the same for you as treating it like H/P/F. After all, it's not like the Yale match list blows away WashU's. No need to live in the library if doing well in the preclinical curriculum is a negligible part of the MSPE anyways.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 483
- Reaction score
- 767
Students are ranked and compared despite the p/f curriculum at Wash U. Not to mention they have AOA and shelf exams. Yale and CCLCM match just as well as Wash U without these added stressors.
Though it seems like their only ranking is putting students into upper, middle, and lower thirds of the class. And that this is based only on clinical year grades. Seems like it could be worse.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 483
- Reaction score
- 767
This is the standard ranking practice these days. Very few top schools provide exact rankings (student X was number 6 in the class of 300). So it’s still a pretty significant disadvantage in my opinion. I can understand the scholarship being tempting, but if money is the biggest concern I’d go with CCLCM and never look back.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2014
- Messages
- 14,146
- Reaction score
- 22,788
But that super small class size, and the mandatory entire extra year...if you're not the type to be stressed about preclinicals I really don't think those are offset
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 483
- Reaction score
- 767
Even so, don’t forget CCLCM has no clinical grades and shelf exams and AOA. That’s huge. Small class is definitely risky for social reasons but ideal for faculty support.
Maybe my priorities are different, but low stress policies are my most important consideration. That’s why I would choose CCLCM or Yale without hesitation.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2016
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 210
@indecisiveconvention Did you attend CCLCM second look? I thought it was very elucidating. Really amazing clinical opportunities (especially in surgery) but community oriented and primary care opportunities felt lacking. That's not to say those opportunities don't exist, but there weren't nearly as many community health/health disparity oriented opportunities as competing institutions; these opportunities also were not front and center like they were at other places. That said, the opportunities for surgical immersion and research seemed absolutely unparalleled. There also isn't an integrated health disparities portion to the curriculum, which is so important to me personally (but obviously not for everyone). Having 32 people in a class at a hospital system is also a very different feel from having 100-160 people at an academic institution. You need to think about which you prefer. My qualm was that it didn't feel like there was any space on campus where I could truly unwind, loosen up, and connect organically with classmates. You have to be business casual everywhere, which might be superficial, but it really felt to me like that affected how people there connect with one another. I think CCLCM has really amazing opportunities, but I don't think it's everyone's cup of tea. It took spending some real time there for me to get a feel for that.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2018
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 11
I also attended CCLCM's Second Look and agree that it was very helpful. I personally am not interested in primary care/community health, so that aspect didn't bother me much (most research powerhouse medical schools are similar in this respect).
The small class size is definitely interesting. Based on my experience at Second Look, it seems like the major advantage is the incredible faculty attention and support each student receives. But the major drawback seems to be that you have a smaller cohort to find people you connect with really well. Also, it seemed like most people at Second Look were seriously considering other options (not to mention a few students on the alternate list), so the final cohort will likely be pretty different.
They did a great job selling the amazing opportunities you'd get as a student at the Cleveland Clinic, undeniably one of the best healthcare institutions in the entire world. I was also really impressed by the leadership (Dr. Franco, Dr. Young, etc.). They were really honest about the type of student who would thrive at CCLCM and the type that would struggle, something I appreciated.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2016
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 210
Agreed! There are undeniable huge benefits to the faculty student ratio at CCLCM. It also seemed like they are very invested in their students. I should have mentioned that as well. I also think the small group learning environment is very unique and potentially a huge asset if you feel you would do well in that atmosphere. That said, I would not say that most research power house medical schools don't have a focus on community health initiatives/research and primary care stuff. It's definitely true for some, but not for others (though there is MAJOR sampling bias on my part here haha)
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2018
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 11
Sorry, I should have restricted that to primary care as opposed to community health. Certainly many research powerhouse medical schools are invested in community health. It seemed like the Cleveland Clinic is too based on the panel discussion we had with students the first day.
For primary care, though, the only schools that really stand out seem to be UCSF, Michigan, and U-Wash (and maybe UCLA). Others like Harvard, Yale, and Penn really seem to emphasize academic medicine, and their match lists certainly reflect this it seems.
