Weird Situation I have yet to find someone else in. American citizen with degree from Australia

[Doodlewang]

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Hi all, I seem to really keep coming back to this forum for great information except I have yet to find someone in the same position as me and I can't really find any information to help me.

My story
I am currently 22 and I am an American citizen and Australian citizen by birth. I completed my highschool education in California and I am completing my University education in Australia. But ultimately I wish to return to America to enter medical school and this is causing me to have many concerns.

These include if my degree will be valid for use in applying for medical school? Because Australian degrees are a standard 3 year not 4 year degree, They are bachelor degrees which is all that US med school state they require. (Although I have 2 years of a previous Construction Management degree here in Australia)

Will my required courses be valid for US med schools? Do they look over each course in detail to see whats involved? For example no Australian schools offer a whole year of organic chemistry, just one semester and I have taken two English courses but I am not sure if they are the standard courses required?

Would I as an Australian graduate be tossed into the pile of foreign applicants? Or would I be viewed as an American applicant?

What website or company is used to translate my GPA, and would that translation be viewed as if it was an American GPA. I ask this because I am currently getting a 79%+ Average in every class here in Australia which is very high, It is very very VERY! rare for students to maintain even 85%+ averages. Most students average around the 65% area due to the very harsh grading.
Will schools be well aware of this?

When I apply I will ultimately have a 3 year Biology degree with around a 3.7 GPA, 2 years of construction management (uncompleted), with my electives completed with maybe 1 or 2 needed to retake at an American school.

I really am really concerned that my application will be just torn up and tossed in the trash.

 

[DrMidlife]

Your to do list:

1. Get educated about the admissions requirements at US med schools by reading the admissions pages on their websites. Look for the instructions for international students. Start making a list of schools that won't require you to take 1-2 years of undergrad classes in the US, which is a typical requirement. The MSAR is not good enough for this kind of research. Here's one to get you started: http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/ed...ons/the-uva-som-1/international-students.html

2. But take some undergrad coursework in the US anyway. Otherwise, you are going to be a questionable applicant, end of story, unless your app falls in front of a person who actually knows your specific college in Australia or at least understands the Australian college system. Assume that won't happen, and that no US med school is going to be motivated to figure you out. They barely understand Canada much less anybody else. The average US MD school gets around 5000 applications for 150 seats, and you have to be the one who makes you easy to figure out.

3. Get the highest possible MCAT score you can get, because this is the great equalizer and answerer of basic academic questions in US MD admissions.

4. Make sure you're an active, documented resident of a state, and it's best if that state isn't California. States own their own definition of residency which has nothing to do with US citizenship, and you'll have to show that you and/or your parents have been paying state taxes somewhere in order to get considered a resident of a state. Being considered a resident of a state is a huge advantage in many states, in terms of admissions preference and lower tuition.

US schools will have no idea how valuable your grades are in Australia, and they are not interested in learning that your 79% average is really good and not the same as a US 79% (which is a C average and not med school worthy). You are going to need a killer MCAT score and some US coursework at a 3.7+ if you want to be taken seriously. You will probably think you can do graduate work instead, or do coursework at a community college, but those are not addressing the basic question of US MD admissions: where is your demonstration of multiple years of success in a US science classroom that makes us confident you can handle the rigor of med school?

Look for posts from Scottish Chap, who did a UK PhD before US MD. His experience will cover more than you need.

Best of luck to you.

 

[hawkbit]

I can't give specific advice, but have you called or emailed admission offices for schools that you would like to apply to? I have found that they are generally helpful with any questions I have regarding the admissions process (in Texas anyways!). I would send a few emails to prospective schools laying out your situation and see what they say, then you can get firsthand information applicable to you.

 

[hawkbit]

Or you can follow dr midlife's excellent advice which posted before mine. 😉

 

[Doodlewang]

Your to do list:

1. Get educated about the admissions requirements at US med schools by reading the admissions pages on their websites. Look for the instructions for international students. Start making a list of schools that won't require you to take 1-2 years of undergrad classes in the US, which is a typical requirement. The MSAR is not good enough for this kind of research. Here's one to get you started: http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/ed...ons/the-uva-som-1/international-students.html

2. But take some undergrad coursework in the US anyway. Otherwise, you are going to be a questionable applicant, end of story, unless your app falls in front of a person who actually knows your specific college in Australia or at least understands the Australian college system. Assume that won't happen, and that no US med school is going to be motivated to figure you out. They barely understand Canada much less anybody else. The average US MD school gets around 5000 applications for 150 seats, and you have to be the one who makes you easy to figure out.

3. Get the highest possible MCAT score you can get, because this is the great equalizer and answerer of basic academic questions in US MD admissions.

4. Make sure you're an active, documented resident of a state, and it's best if that state isn't California. States own their own definition of residency which has nothing to do with US citizenship, and you'll have to show that you and/or your parents have been paying state taxes somewhere in order to get considered a resident of a state. Being considered a resident of a state is a huge advantage in many states, in terms of admissions preference and lower tuition.

US schools will have no idea how valuable your grades are in Australia, and they are not interested in learning that your 79% average is really good and not the same as a US 79% (which is a C average and not med school worthy). You are going to need a killer MCAT score and some US coursework at a 3.7+ if you want to be taken seriously. You will probably think you can do graduate work instead, or do coursework at a community college, but those are not addressing the basic question of US MD admissions: where is your demonstration of multiple years of success in a US science classroom that makes us confident you can handle the rigor of med school?

Look for posts from Scottish Chap, who did a UK PhD before US MD. His experience will cover more than you need.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. You have answered some of my questions and brought others things to my attention I did not consider like taking at least a couple science classes here in the states before even applying.

I would love to hear from anyone else who has been in my position, espcially related to my GPA conversion and if I would be viewed as an international student or an American.

 

[darklabel]

Thanks for the lengthy reply. You have answered some of my questions and brought others things to my attention I did not consider like taking at least a couple science classes here in the states before even applying.

I would love to hear from anyone else who has been in my position, espcially related to my GPA conversion and if I would be viewed as an international student or an American.

If you're a US citizen then you are considered a US applicant, which is MUCH better than an international applicant.

As for transitioning credits, use this link and read over everything carefully. Most people don't like the manual, but this definitely helped me out.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Good luck!

 

[Doodlewang]

If you're a US citizen then you are considered a US applicant, which is MUCH better than an international applicant.

As for transitioning credits, use this link and read over everything carefully. Most people don't like the manual, but this definitely helped me out.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Good luck!

Thank you for the link. I have been reading it now and it seems like I am in for one hell of a ride getting into med school back home. I have been scimming through this and unless my school grades with A, B and C's (Australian schools don't), American med schools won't ever see my grades??!! Wtf is up with that??

 

[Scottish Chap]

out.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Good luck![/quote]

Thank you for the link. I have been reading it now and it seems like I am in for one hell of a ride getting into med school back home. I have been scimming through this and unless my school grades with A, B and C's (Australian schools don't), American med schools won't ever see my grades??!! Wtf is up with that??

This will be a problem, sadly. Your U.S. citizenship solves the problem of securing U.S. federal loans, but that's about it. More U.S medical schools are willing to interview and accept a foreign national with a U.S. undergraduate degree than anyone with an undergraduate degree earned outside of North America. It's mostly because they want to compare apples with apples. You're not going to have a U.S. GPA to place on your AMCAS form and they're not going to understand the Australian grading system in the U.S. Don't even try to explain it to them. They won’t get it, and they won’t like you for going against the grain.

Most U.S. medicals schools will want 60-90 credits earned in the U.S. at least. Usually (but not always) those have to be undergraduate credits, and often should include chemistry, biology, physics, organic chemistry (6-8 U.S. credits for each + lab). I had a couple of U.S. graduate degrees that gave me 91 credits and I took a couple of missing undergraduate prerequisites in the U.S. (8 credits total) and was accepted, so I'm living proof that you can occasionally 'go against the grain' and succeed (I'm an attending now). I also consider myself to be pretty mediocre. I was ultimately accepted by two schools who say they want 90 undergraduate credits + all prerequistes in the U.S. (to include English) and I clearly was not that person (mostly graduate credits, did not take English....please). Some schools will make an exception, but I would not plan on automatically being one. I personally did not encounter a schools that would take a foreign undergraduate screen alone + the MCAT.

Best advice I would give it to do what I did: contact each U.S. medical school you intend to apply to. Explain your situation, and see what they say. You might need to bypass the person that screens the calls and e-mails (often not the Director of Admissions) to get a straight answer. It’s a rare problem and some schools will think you are odd for even trying to apply (like Dr. Milford Foxwell from the University of Maryland who asked me why my “good graduate school in the U.S.” did not have a problem with me having a foreign undergraduate degree); I did not win an interview there and love telling that story to my colleagues who earned their MD from Maryland. Usually they laugh loudly and tell me I should contact him to let him know where I got my medical training…water under the bridge, but a concrete example of some of the responses you are about to receive. Once you have an answer about your unique situation, you pretty much need to do what they say if you want an interview there.

All U.S. medical schools will want the MCAT (sorry) and make sure you don't do what I did by taking it with missing prerequisite courses. There are a few commercial agencies that can 'translate' your foreign degree into "equivalent U.S. credits and GPA" but it's expensive. I did this and sent the translated file to AMCAS and every U.S. medial school I applied to. Google will help you find them. Who knows if it helped.

Also consider Canada. The few schools that accept international (which you would be) are often quite open to degrees from Commonwealth countries if you did well. I won an interview at the University of Toronto Medical school with a British degree + MCAT and I promise you my credentials were nothing like the average accepted Canadian. McGill also accepts internationals. Forget about McMaster and NOMS; they won’t take an international into their three-year M.D. (but they’ll happily take your application fee).

The good news is that you are bright. Very. With marks like that in Commonwealth country, a little tenacity and luck, I'll bet you'll succeed, and then help the next person on their way. Good luck

 

[sk7]

Well as someone who was in a similar situation a couple of years ago: US citizen with undergrad from overseas (commonwealth nation), I can tell you straight up that you will have to do a post-bacc to fulfill your pre-req requirement, which in your case will mean retaking these courses. US medical schools will not consider pre-requisites not taken in the US or Canada. Also, AMCAS will NOT verify your transcript so when you apply, make sure to check the box that says you don't need to send in your transcript from undergrad.
For getting your transcript evaluated, I used World Education Services (WES), though it didn't help because even though my degree was considered the equivalent of a 4yr US degree, med schools still don't care, except for SUNY Downstate. They were the only ones who said they'd consider grades from abroad. There might be more, but of the schools I was looking at they were the only ones.
I don't know about the 60-90 credits thing because I had completed a master's degree at the time I first applied but like the poster said check with admissions offices to find out if you'll have to take extra classes besides the post-bacc.
I know it's a little disheartening to have to retake classes you've already passed (at least it was for me) but since you already aced them, you're most likely going to have very solid grades when you apply.